Trying to figure out casting speed

[Arddv]

Hello everyone!

 

So, after some extensive reading I figured out how attack speed bonuses and maluses work, but now I'm completely lost on what recovery reduction bonuses work on spellcasting? 

 

With weapons it's rather easy - you multiply bonuses from equipment (gauntlets of SA) * bonuses from weapon itself (speed ench, durganization) * the highest from active buff/modal (Alacrity of Motion, Frenzies, Swift Aims and such) * TWS talent if applicable and deduct it from recovery time that is modified additively by armor + TWF + flat modifiers like Vuln. Attack. Then what is left is multiplied by Dex bonus. And while I have some misunderstading with the place of Bloodlust ability and shield durganization in this equation this is irrelevant, because you can reach zero recovery without them in any armor. The main question is:

 

Which of aforementioned apply to spellcasting? Do weapon enchantments apply (I figure they don't, but...), do Gauntlets of SA work, maybe shield durganization? I want to make plate-wearing combat wizard but I hate the idea of using DAoM only to negate heavy armor and no ways to further improve spellcating speed.

 

Need clarifications please.

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

If you're talking about cast speed exclusively and not recovery only Dex and Alacrity (and maybe likewise buffs) should apply no durganization should.

Gauntlets of SA should work.

[Boeroer]

Yes. DEX reduces the casting animation as well as the recovery time. It's bonus gets applied to recovery AFTER the other bonuses to recovery got calculated. Speed bonuses/malus to recovery that also work with casting are (universal recovery bonuses):

- Alacrity of Deleterious Motion: 50% OR

- Frenzy: 33% (no stacking with Alacrity) OR

- Swift Aim: 20% (no stacking) OR

- Swift Strikes: 25% (not 100% sure it works with spells, might be melee only, no stacking) OR

- Time Parasite: 50% (no stacking) OR

- Their Champion braved the Horde alone: 40% (no stacking)

 

- Bloodlust: 20% (stacks)

- Blood Thirst: 0 recovery after kill

- Anitlei: 10%, (stacks)

 

- Spelltongue's stolen attack speed: 15%

- Gauntlets of Swift Action: 15%

 

- Potion of Power: 25%, (no stacking)

- Svef: 15% (no stacking I guess)

 

- armor penalty (-x%)

- Cautious Attack (-20% ?)

- Penetrating Shot (-20% ?)

 

That's all I can shake out of my sleeve right now. Attack bonus speed on weapons only works on that weapon's attack. Thus, speed enchantment on weapons/shields and Durgan Steel only work with attacks with the enchanted weapon. Durgan reinforcement on armor (-15% recovery malus) however helps when casting.

 

So you could use Frenzy with Bloodlust and Spelltongue and Gauntlets on a barb to speed up casting. Or Alacrity and Spelltongue and Gauntlets on a wizard. After calculating the recovery DEX further influences it. Funnily I think a barb could be the fastest caster there is. Too bad he lacks a lot of spells.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Boeroer

[Arddv]

This means that a caster with Spelltongue (1.15), Gauntlets of SA (1.15) and DAoM (1.5) will have 1.15*1.15*1.5=1.98 recovery bonus (ie almost no recovery in clothes) that will be reduced by 0.35 penalty of durganized plate = 63% recovery reduction with 10 Dex?

 

Well, that is pretty good for armored caster. Thx guys!

[Arddv]

While we are at this - what would be the better option:

 

a) To use Steadfast in offhand - immunities, outmaneuvering, uses any WFocus and can strike faster due to TWF + TWStyle

 

b) To use some small shield like Little savior.

 

The core idea is the caster that alternates between melee strikes and casting to prolong his buffs and steal AS - cast, hit, cast, hit and so on.

[Boeroer]

If you want to attack with no recovery in order to steal a lot of duration you could also duplicate Spelltongue with the Helwax Mold and dual wield it. With Alacrity and dual wielding you'll already have 0 recovery with no armor. With gauntlets, Durgan steel and Spelltongue's speed stealing you can easily reach 0 recovery with weapon attacks in full plate and even use Vulnerable Attack with no speed loss.

 

Immunity to fear is easily achieved with 2 lore and a scroll of prayer against fear.

A wizard usually has a lot of options to lower deflection - I don't think he needs Outmaneuvering. So I don't find Steadfast to be a really good choice.

 

Little Saviour is always nice.

[Sfzrx]

Interesting, never knew Deleterious Alarcrity of Motion affected spell recovery duration, sounds like a powerful tool I missed, thanks for the info.

[Loren Tyr]

With weapons it's rather easy - you multiply bonuses from equipment (gauntlets of SA) * bonuses from weapon itself (speed ench, durganization) * the highest from active buff/modal (Alacrity of Motion, Frenzies, Swift Aims and such) * TWS talent if applicable and deduct it from recovery time that is modified additively by armor + TWF + flat modifiers like Vuln. Attack. Then what is left is multiplied by Dex bonus. And while I have some misunderstading with the place of Bloodlust ability and shield durganization in this equation this is irrelevant, because you can reach zero recovery without them in any armor. 

 

Actually, Two-weapon Fighting is additive with general Attack Speed modifiers, not multiplicative. Also keep in mind that Dexterity also affects the attack/casting duration itself, not just the recovery time, it's the only thing that does (well, technically it only affects the attack/casting duration, but the recovery time is a function of attack/casting duration so it comes down to the same thing). So an +X% Action Speed bonus from Dexterity speeds you up considerably more than the same +X% as Attack Speed bonus.

[Sfzrx]

Lol, so as a wizard I can grab the dual wield talent and use Deleterious Alarcrity of Motion for 70% attack speed increase, that sounds wierd but ok, gonna test if I hit 0 recovery with that.

[Loren Tyr]

Dual-wield only speeds up the dual-wielding, not the spell casting. Deleterious Alacrity does give you a big boost, of course (though in potion form, obviously anyone can use that).

[Sfzrx]

Ok thanks for the confirmation.

[Dr <3]

A wizard dual wielding ( without any talent) and with daom is already at 0 recovery ( 50%+50%).

If you take two weapons talent you reach -120% recovery, so you can have a better armour.

 

Are you sure cautious attack slows the recovery after spell casting too?

 

Edit: next build: a double sabre wizard... At beginning of fight veil + daom = 0 recovery, +50 deflection

 

No just joking, citzal remains a better option

Edited August 22, 2016 by Dr <3

[DreamWayfarer]

Citzal may be better for damage... but spelltongue has more things going for it than damage.

[Blades of Vanatar]

A wizard dual wielding ( without any talent) and with daom is already at 0 recovery ( 50%+50%).

If you take two weapons talent you reach -120% recovery, so you can have a better armour.

 

Are you sure cautious attack slows the recovery after spell casting too?

 

Edit: next build: a double sabre wizard... At beginning of fight veil + daom = 0 recovery, +50 deflection

 

No just joking, citzal remains a better option

Is it? You need to cast Citzal first. You will already be Bittercutting x2.

[DreamWayfarer]

And nothing keeps you from summoning Citzal's lance when you want bigger numbers. If you can have 0-recovery with no Talents, you can take the 2-handed style talent for when you do summon it. Actually, I am already thinking of a jack of all trades dual-wielding/2-hander/fast caster Wizard build now that I know that Spelltongue speeds up casting too.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Dr <3]

When soloing the best point of citazel is the aoe dmg, with put that weapon far above everything else when fighting 3 or more enemies. I played for a while a citazel wiz, you just cast daoe, llengrath, citzel lance and martial power and start wipe the floor. Note that all this chain ( if you chain spell with SHIFT) take just slight more time than for a druid to cast the lvl 3 storm. When needed you have infuse vital essence for heal both endurance and health and combusting wounds for amplify dmg. arcane veil is a must in thoug fights or for smooth the chaining of spells. Also Ice fog is useful for blind aoe.

This build Is very fun ( at least for me) and at High lvl you can have most spell as per encounter ( exept citzel and martial power) and that, combined with the health heal of vital essence permits lot of fights without rest, wich is pretty cool for the wiz.

Going dual wield sabre can be best for single target dmg, but not a lot i think, since wiz with daom can reach a very low recovery even with a 2 hander.

Spelltongue is absolutely cool for the elongation of self buffs ( that wizard have really a lot) BUT the dmg sucks really hard ( at least in comparison of other weapons you can have ( sabres/drawn is spring) or conjure ( staff/lance). +15% casting speed is barely noticeable, since most of your spells are already fast. And as a wizard is much easyer and safer cast a draining Wall for extend all your buff for the whole encounter.

 

But these are just my opinion, i encourage you all anyway to try some new builds and post the results, wich in this game are often sweetly unpredictables

[Loren Tyr]

Just to expand on Boeroer's list a bit more: "attack speed bonus/penalty" effects that affect your recovery actually consists of six different kinds of effects, plus reload speed; and of course Dexterity which affects recovery, reload and the duration of actions/animations themselves. The categories are:

- DualWieldAttackSpeedMult (Two Weapon Style)

- MeleeAttackSpeedMult (Vulnerable Attack)

- RangedAttackSpeedMult (Penetrating Shot)

- ArmorSpeedFactorAdj (base armour penalty, Durgan enchantment, Armored Grace, Pilferer's Grip)

- RateOfFireMult (Sure-handed Ila, Vicious Aim)

- AttackSpeedMult (everything else, see below)

 

- Reload Speed (Swift Aim, Sure-handed Ila, Gunner, Vicious Aim) [sure-Handed Ila suppresses Swift Aim]

 

The total bonus/penalty is first computed per category into a combined percentage, these are then added together for the total attack speed bonus/penalty. This is combined bonus is subtracted from the base percentage, which is 50%. Weapon attacks get an additional penalty of 50% unless you're dual wielding (shield Bash doesn't count). In other words, dual-wielders don't get a bonus, non-dual-wielders get a penalty. As that only applies to weapon attacks, a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion spell/potion is therefore already enough to get zero recovery on spell-casting (provided you have no armour penalty, etc.). All this gets you a final percentage of the base recovery duration.

 

The top three categories and Reload Speed all of course only apply when attacking with weapons (of the appropriate kind/style). RateOfFireMult applies to some spells as well, in particular those that use AttackRanged or AttackAOE as a basis (eg. Missiles, Rolling Flame, Fireball, Fan of Flames, but not Ray of Fire (AttackBeam) or Shocking Grasp (AttackMelee)). The other two apply generally to recovery duration (but not to reload duration).

 

ArmourSpeedFactorAdj is combined additively, the rest is combined multiplicatively; eg. for RateOfFireMult, if you have Sure-handed Ila and Vicious aim the combination is 1.2 * 0.8 = 0.96, so in total you get a 4% speed penalty. Similarly, Deleterious Alacrity + Cautious Attack will net you 0.8 * 1.5 = 1.2, so +20% bonus. 

 

The AttackSpeedMult is the biggest category by far, and contains the following:

- Swift Aim, Frenzy, Outlander’s Frenzy, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, Svef, Potion of Power, Their Champion Braved The Horde Alone, Swift Strikes, Time Parasite, Mourning Gloves

- Spell Tongue

- Cautious Attack

- Gauntlets of Swift Action

- Bloodlust

- Anitlei

- Speed enchantment

- Durgan enchantment

 

As noted, insofar as these stack they do so multiplicatively. The effects in the first bullet point don't stack with each other, only the best of those is applied. For the rest everything stack, including the Spell Tongue effect (it shouldn't, but it does). 

 

Anyway, I think that covers pretty much everything. Seemed like a good idea to put it all into a single post. Let me know if I missed any effects by the way, so I can edit them in.

 

Edit: added Mourning Gloves

Edited September 20, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[DreamWayfarer]

+15% casting speed is barely noticeable, since most of your spells are already fast.

Actually, by multiplying the effects of Spelltongue, DAoM and Gaunlets of Swift Action you get 1.15*1.15*1.5=1.98375, which means basically zero recovery when not wearing armor. Take away Spelltongue and you get 1.725, which means very low recovery, but not zero. Plus, nothing keeps you from using spelltongue on a Citzal build those times when you aren't conjuring weapons.

[K Galen B]

 

Just to expand on Boeroer's list a bit more: "attack speed bonus/penalty" effects that affect your recovery actually consists of six different kinds of effects, plus reload speed; and of course Dexterity which affects recovery, reload and the duration of actions/animations themselves. The categories are:

- DualWieldAttackSpeedMult (Two Weapon Style)

- MeleeAttackSpeedMult (Vulnerable Attack)

- RangedAttackSpeedMult (Penetrating Shot)

- ArmorSpeedFactorAdj (base armour penalty, Durgan enchantment, Armored Grace, Pilferer's Grip)

- RateOfFireMult (Sure-handed Ila, Vicious Aim)

- AttackSpeedMult (everything else, see below)

 

- Reload Speed (Swift Aim, Sure-handed Ila, Gunner, Vicious Aim) [sure-Handed Ila suppresses Swift Aim]

 

The total bonus/penalty is first computed per category into a combined percentage, these are then added together for the total attack speed bonus/penalty. This is combined bonus is subtracted from the base percentage, which is 50%. Weapon attacks get an additional penalty of 50% unless you're dual wielding (shield Bash doesn't count). In other words, dual-wielders don't get a bonus, non-dual-wielders get a penalty. As that only applies to weapon attacks, a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion spell/potion is therefore already enough to get zero recovery on spell-casting (provided you have no armour penalty, etc.). All this gets you a final percentage of the base recovery duration.

 

The top three categories and Reload Speed all of course only apply when attacking with weapons (of the appropriate kind/style). RateOfFireMult applies to some spells as well, in particular those that use AttackRanged or AttackAOE as a basis (eg. Missiles, Rolling Flame, Fireball, Fan of Flames, but not Ray of Fire (AttackBeam) or Shocking Grasp (AttackMelee)). The other two apply generally to recovery duration (but not to reload duration).

 

ArmourSpeedFactorAdj is combined additively, the rest is combined multiplicatively; eg. for RateOfFireMult, if you have Sure-handed Ila and Vicious aim the combination is 1.2 * 0.8 = 0.96, so in total you get a 4% speed penalty. Similarly, Deleterious Alacrity + Cautious Attack will net you 0.8 * 1.5 = 1.2, so +20% bonus. 

 

The AttackSpeedMult is the biggest category by far, and contains the following:

- Swift Aim, Frenzy, Outlander’s Frenzy, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, Svef, Potion of Power, Their Champion Braved The Horde Alone, Swift Strikes, Time Parasite

- Spell Tongue

- Cautious Attack

- Gauntlets of Swift Action

- Bloodlust

- Anitlei

- Speed enchantment

- Durgan enchantment

 

As noted, insofar as these stack they do so multiplicatively. The effects in the first bullet point don't stack with each other, only the best of those is applied. For the rest everything stack, including the Spell Tongue effect (it shouldn't, but it does). 

 

Anyway, I think that covers pretty much everything. Seemed like a good idea to put it all into a single post. Let me know if I missed any effects by the way, so I can edit them in.

 

Thanks for posting this, I very much appreciate a good summary of obfuscated (intentionally or not) effects and their interactions. Info like this is my gaming drug of choice.

[fced]

Hello, 

Does the speed of a weapon have something to do with spell casting speed, or does the weapon speed interact only with the weapon attack itself and not the spells/abilities/power casting ? 

I mean, will a spell be casted more quickly with a wand (fast speed) than with a dual hand weapon (slow speed) - I speak of weapon without any speed buff, standard weapons? 

Thanks

[Boeroer]

No. Weapons have no effect on casting speed. Not even ones with speed.

 

The only weapon that can speed up your casting is Spelltongue - because it simply puts a buff on you like if you would use the Alacrity spell (but weaker).

 

But things like basic attack speed of the weapon, durgan steel, speed enchantment, dual wielding and two weapon style only affect the weapon use itself. Not casting.

[fced]

No. Weapons have no effect on casting speed. Not even ones with speed.

 

The only weapon that can speed up your casting is Spelltongue - because it simply puts a buff on you like if you would use the Alacrity spell (but weaker).

 

But things like basic attack speed of the weapon, durgan steel, speed enchantment, dual wielding and two weapon style only affect the weapon use itself. Not casting.

 

Thank You, it is clear now, I was not using rods because of their speed, I think I can try them now

[Boeroer]

If you're using Blast then I'd pick wands. They are a lot faster and the Blast' AoE damage is totally independent from the weapon's damage. So: the faster you hit the more Blasts you generate = the more AoE dps.

 

Except when you have the Golden Gaze rod. This one fires two projectiles per attack which each trigger Blast. Which makes this the optimal blasting implement (besides Kalakoth's Minor Blights).

Edited November 22, 2017 by Boeroer

[fced]

Yes I am using Blast (and the advanced one - I put 2 points in blast), and I am using the soul bound scepter "Gyrd Aewanes Styrd" (for now), I just got Golden Gaze rod, and I will try it (I didn't realized it was firing 2 projectiles instead of one

...

 

I don't use very much Kalakoth's Minor Blights, but I will try to use it a bit more, I didn't realized it was working with Blast...

 

My biggest problem with the wizard in that game is the friendly fire, I am always afraid to kill my party; most of the time when I send a spell on ennemis, when my spell arrive on the area targeted (or the enemy), my companions are already arrived in the area of effect (it took me some time at the beginning to realize I was killing my companions with my spells)

I have a lot of difficulty to make them stop moving and wait...

Edited November 24, 2017 by fced

[Boeroer]

You can pick spells that have no friendly fire. For example Freezing Pillar.

 

Golden Gaze also procs Expose Vulnerabilities which help a lot with Blast's damage and the two (weaker) projectiles.

 

Also try Combusting Wounds + Kalakoth's Minor Blights. Two spells only to shred enemies to pieces. Blights + Blast generate a plethora of hits which all trigger Combusting Wounds on the enemy. If they don't have enormous burn DR they will die very quickly and you don't harm your party members.

 

Pull of Eora helps to pull enemies together. Perfect pre-spell for Minor Blights use.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Boeroer