Unarmed combat bug

[thetang22]

Enjoying the game very much so far. I'm a big fan of the printed game, and this seems to be pretty faithful to that.

 

I have stumbled across what appears as my first real bug. I am playing the IOS version.

 

I'm playing the first quest of Attack on Sandpoint. I came across Ripnugget, so it gave me the option to temp close other locations. Merisiel is at the Swallowtail Festival, which has a closing condition of defeat/acquire the next card in the location deck. The card is a Zombie, so it's to be combat.

 

Merisiel doesn't currently have any weapons in hand, so it will be an unarmed combat. The problem - Merisiel should be using her Strength value (d8) for unarmed combat, but this game is only allowing me to use d4, as though it is a "melee check". (There are no other options in the check drop down menu).

 

The rules for PACG state that when you don't have a specific skill printed on your card, that skill is a d4. I can assume this is the root of the problem, as the game is implying an unarmed combat check HAS to be a "melee check". However, unarmed combat is one of the exceptions to that d4 rule. In unarmed combat, the rules state you can use you melee OR strength value. Unless the rules have changed, Merisiel should be rolling d8 on an unarmed combat check, not d4.

[luxionmk2]

I was going to post my own "bug" regarding this, but I'll just add to this.

 

Merisiel enters combat and is allotted 1d8 (Str), unarmed.  If I use a ranged weapon, that is replaced by 1d12 (Dex), plus any bonuses offered by her Dex and ranged weapon.

 

Now, I use the elite ally, Soldier, who reads, "Recharge this card to add 1d4 to your Melee combat check."  My initial 1d8 is now 2d4; not 1d8+1d4.

 

So while she starts off d8, I believe doing anything "melee" will convert that d8 into a d4.

[StormbringerGT]

Enjoying the game very much so far. I'm a big fan of the printed game, and this seems to be pretty faithful to that.

 

I have stumbled across what appears as my first real bug. I am playing the IOS version.

 

I'm playing the first quest of Attack on Sandpoint. I came across Ripnugget, so it gave me the option to temp close other locations. Merisiel is at the Swallowtail Festival, which has a closing condition of defeat/acquire the next card in the location deck. The card is a Zombie, so it's to be combat.

 

Merisiel doesn't currently have any weapons in hand, so it will be an unarmed combat. The problem - Merisiel should be using her Strength value (d8) for unarmed combat, but this game is only allowing me to use d4, as though it is a "melee check". (There are no other options in the check drop down menu).

 

The rules for PACG state that when you don't have a specific skill printed on your card, that skill is a d4. I can assume this is the root of the problem, as the game is implying an unarmed combat check HAS to be a "melee check". However, unarmed combat is one of the exceptions to that d4 rule. In unarmed combat, the rules state you can use you melee OR strength value. Unless the rules have changed, Merisiel should be rolling d8 on an unarmed combat check, not d4.

 

Like Luxionmk2 posted above, did you play any other cards during her check that would have changed the check to a Melee check as oppose to just a strength check?

[Tootzo]

When you use a card that lets you change the skill for a check, you ADD that card's traits to the check. If you are using a skill that refers to another skill (like MELEE: STRENGTH + 2, for example), the check counts as both a strength check and a melee check.

Merisiel doesn't have the MELEE skill, but any melee weapon says you can use your STRENGTH or MELEE die for the combat check.

So, if I encounter a monster (which has both STRENGTH and MELEE type of checks to be encountered), I should be able to choose strength as the skill I want to use for the check and if I play a weapon, the check should gain the MELEE trait, but still be a STRENGTH check, since the weapon still gives you choice of which skill to use.

If you use the Soldier ally, your base die should still be 1d8, since the check you are attempting is both a STRENGTH and a MELEE check.

The "strength or melee" choice for encounter checks shouldn't be read as an obstacle; the choice is given because certain characters may have a melee training thus giving them a bonus when using close combat weapons, but those weapons base skill is strength. It's the same for ranged weapons: they are based off dexterity, so any character with high dexterity should be able to effectively use them, but if a character has the ranged skill, it means that using a dexterity based weapon that character has more bonuses than those using only their (still high) dexterity.

Merisiel is a rogue; I can't imagine her being able to punch a bandit in the face using her bare fists more efficiently than using a rapier or a scimitar.

The choice between strength or melee in a combat check (as in any other check) is given to be able to choose the best die in every situation, not to penalize the character.

It should go like this:

- characters with d4 strength die: they are poor at fighting in close quarters and also at strength based non-combat checks;

- characters with d6-d8 strength die, no melee skill: they are quite good at non-combat strength checks and can sustain a close combat fight with bare hands or weapons;

- characters with d10-d12 die + melee skill: they are very good in brute force situations (non combat strength checks) and are particularly deadly in close combat since they can always use their melee skill (even bare handedly) in fights, granting them +1/2/3 in addition to their already high strength die.

 

If a character with of without the melee skill wants to fight bare handedly using his/her strength die, he/she can do so. If you don't play a card with melee trait, the fight is only a strength combat check. It is stupid not to use the melee skill if you have it, because you won't use the bonus it gives. This is no different to using the melee skill when you don't have it in a combat check where you can use strength and play cards that let you use your strength die. Those cards may also ADD the melee trait to the check, but don't change the check type to be just that, when the encountered card clearly states you can choose either skill.

 

In the same manner, the game automatically uses the blessings in the most favorable way to the player: it doesn't ask me if I want to add 1 die to the check if I'm playing a blessings of the gods and the blessing at the top of the discard pile can give me two dice on that check, so I can't understand why the game gives Merisiel a d4 die in a close combat when she can definitely use her strength to brandish weapons and hit the enemy.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Tootzo

[Longshot11]

Merisiel doesn't have the MELEE skill...

If you use the Soldier ally, your base die should still be 1d8, since the check you are attempting is both a STRENGTH and a MELEE check.

 

Merisiel is a rogue; I can't imagine her being able to punch a bandit in the face using her bare fists more efficiently than using a rapier or a scimitar.

The OP is obviously a bug (assuming there aren't any unreported modifiers and conditions).

 

If you play a Soldier on a bare-handed check, the correct behaviour is to get 2d4 , not d8 + d4. As noted, Merisiel doesn't have the Melee skill, and Soldier adds to Melee check, so you're effectively saying "I want to use my untrained Melee (d4) instead of my bare Strgth (d8)" - and of course 2d4 is still better than d8.

(I'll admit I'm not 100% sure what's supposed to happen if you play Soldier on Merisiel's melee weapon check - the weapon should be adding its own Melee trait to the check, so maybe even if Merisiel doesn't have her own Melee skill, she should still get her Strength d8 + the Soldier's d4 ?)

 

Also, Merisiel is, statistically, better with her bare hands than with a Scimitar as she doesn't start with Weapon Proficiency and the Scimitar would give her a -4 penalty.

[thetang22]

 Like Luxionmk2 posted above, did you play any other cards during her check that would have changed the check to a Melee check as oppose to just a strength check?

No, I had not played any other cards when I noticed, nor was there anything in this encounter/scenario/location that would have forced me to use my "melee" skill instead of my strength.

 

I tried to give as much context on the situation as possible, because I could find no logical reason why it would force me to use a d4 from the get go, and provided me no other options in the check-type drop menu.

 

For further confusion, my unarmed skill ended up going back to d8 for later encounter in the same game and following. I assume it had to do with the specific set of variables that contributed to the bug.

[Hannibal_PJV]

Soldier is working as it should be. It use melee skill, so your character has to use melee skill.

The first Person instead seems to have real bug.

[Tootzo]

I agree on the soldier behavior: if you just use your strength but want to use the soldier, you have to use the melee skill, so the base die used is d4 (and the game automatically switches to melee skill instead of strength).

But if you play a weapon (alright, I didn't want to take proficiencies into account by saying "scimitar"; anyway, the not-proficient penalty is +4 to check difficulty, not -4 to check roll, which has the same effect, but it's technically two different things), you still can use either your strength or your melee skill, whichever is most favorable to your character. The weapon will add the MELEE trait to your roll, so you can use the soldier without losing your (better) strength die.

[Hannibal_PJV]

True!

[da_mayor]

I think the confusion is that the Trait as the same name as the Skill, and yet there are two separate entities.  You can have a check with the Melee trait which is NOT using the Melee Skill (if Merisiel wanted to use a Melee weapon and didn't want a 1d4 skill die, this would be the case).  So it's not a Melee Skill Check, but it's a Strength Skill Check with the Melee trait.

[Tootzo]

Precisely what I've said: you may do a combat check using your strength and revealing a weapon that woul become a combat strength check with melee trait (and all other traits given by the revealed weapon)

[Brainwave]

I agree on the soldier behavior: if you just use your strength but want to use the soldier, you have to use the melee skill, so the base die used is d4 (and the game automatically switches to melee skill instead of strength).

But if you play a weapon (alright, I didn't want to take proficiencies into account by saying "scimitar"; anyway, the not-proficient penalty is +4 to check difficulty, not -4 to check roll, which has the same effect, but it's technically two different things), you still can use either your strength or your melee skill, whichever is most favorable to your character. The weapon will add the MELEE trait to your roll, so you can use the soldier without losing your (better) strength die.

I don't think this is true. There's a difference between what *skill* you are using for a check and the *traits* associated with a check. This can be confusing since some things, like melee, can be both a skill and a trait.

 

If Merisiel (no melee) used a mace, she would be rolling her strength die and the check would be given the melee trait because all the keywords on the left side of your principle combat card are added as traits to the check (which is also why a card with the magic keyword defeats monsters that require the magic trait). So if she was fighting a monster that caused you to take 1 pt of damage if your check had the melee trait, you'd take that damage. However the skill you are rolling for the check is still strength. If you wanted to use the soldier, you'd have to switch to your default d4 melee die instead of her d8 strength die since the soldier is only used on melee combat checks (which refers to the skill being rolled on the check).

 

Like I said, it's confusing but pretty sure this is correct.

[Tootzo]

The only difference between a skill and a trait is that adding a trait to a check doesn't give you that skill (I.e: if you use a Divine spell without having the skill, you can't then try to recharge it, even if the check you made using that spell had the divine trait).

Other than that, having a skill let you add some bonus to the base die tied to that skill, but using a mace to attack a monster means you are attempting a COMBAT, STRENGTH, MELEE, BLUDGEONING check. it doesn't give you the skill "melee", but it counts as a melee check because the trait was added.

The soldier doesn't say "when you use your melee skill", but "when you attempt a melee check". A combat strength based check using a melee weapon counts as a combat melee check too.

 

In other words: using a skill, inherently gives that trait to the check, while adding a trait to a check doesn't give you that skill. If I use my Melee skill for a combat check, it counts as a melee combat check and a strength combat check (since Melee skill is a subset of the strength skill); if I choose to use strength for my combat check (for example because I don't have the Melee skill) and I reveal a weapon with the Melee trait, this too will be a strength combat check and a melee combat check, in the very same way a combat check using a spell is a magic combat check and also a divine and/or arcane combat check, even if I don't have the Arcane, Divine or Magic skill (which, besides, doesn't exist as a skill)

Edited May 9, 2016 by Tootzo

[Tootzo]

@developers: I think that the way the soldier card is working at the moment is confusing. The game lets you play it even if your check is neither using the Melee skill nor has the Melee trait; in such cases, playing the soldier will force the Melee skill to be used in the check.

But things should work out in a precise order.

First I can choose which skill to use to attempt the check, according to the skills on the bane or boon card I'm encountering. If it is a combat check, I can choose my strength or melee skill. Alternatively, I can play one and only one card that let me change the skill used for the check: for example I can play a Bow which lets me use my dexterity skill for a combat check, or a mace which lets me use my strength or melee skill for the combat. This card also adds ALL its traits to the check.

Then you determine the difficulty for the check, according to the skill and you are using and the traits added to the check.

Finally, you can play cards and powers that add to the check.

At this time you should be prevented from playing the soldier if the skill you are using is not melee OR the check doesn't have the Melee trait; instead the game lets you play him and automatically changes the skill you are using to Melee if the check doesn't have the Melee trait (for example if you are using your STRENGHT for an unarmed combat check or you played a ranged weapon). Only cards that let you replace the skill you use for a check should be able to actually change that skill, while cards REQUIRING certain skills or traits in order to be played should be simply prevented from being played.