Bittercut, Corrosive Lash and Spirit of Decay

[BlackArchon]

I want to improve my understanding of the game mechanics. Here is my thought of Bittercut, please correct me if I'm wrong: If my character is using Bittercut and I add a Corrosive Lash to it while I'm also using Spirit of Decay, what is the outcome against enemies which have the same slash and corrode DR? I would assume that against these enemies the weapon will always use the corrode damage because Spirit of Decay benefits the corrode damage of Bittercut, but not the slash damage. Is this correct?

[Kaylon]

It will use the default damage ie slash - It doesn't check which type does more damage, just the DR.

[Elric Galad]

Which reduces the interest of bittercut + spirit of decay...

 

At least stormcaller apply an electrical DR debuff so you'll usually apply electrical damages.

[Boeroer]

 

 

It will use the default damage ie slash - It doesn't check which type does more damage, just the DR.

 

 

 

Which reduces the interest of bittercut + spirit of decay...

 

Don't judge too quickly. It's not like that:

 

The default damage order of Bittercut is corrode/slash. So it will use corrode if corrode DR and slash DR are equal. That's great. However it is correct that the game doesn't take into account which type would cause more damage in the end. So if the enemy has a corrode DR of 11 and a slash DR of 10 - it will use slash. Despite the fact that you would do more damage with corrode + Spirit of Decay. But still - not bad with Bittercut.

 

All damage you will deal with Bittercut (including +% damage mods) will be multiplied by 1.2 then, including the corrosive lash.

 

With Durance's Staff it's the other way round: it has crush/burn - meaning that it will apply crush damage if crush/burn DR are equal - which is bad if you plan to use Scion of Flame. I just used Firebrand in those cases and the staff when enemies' burn DR was lower than crush DR. Also works ok. But it's not as good as Bittercut's "damage type order" of course.  

Edited April 16, 2016 by Boeroer

[Jojobobo]

A masterful dissemination of the mechanics, as always.

[BlackArchon]

Thank you for the detailed explanation! I wouldn't have guessed that the game will strictly choose the first damage type if the DR of both weapon is identical, without concerning the most damage output.

This is quite sad, so I will forget my idea. And you guessed correct, I also had thought of this idea with Durance's Staff. So this will only work with Stormcaller because of the shock DR.

 

So I conclude that those skills like Spirit of Decay are more intended for spells and abilities which do the corresponding damage types.

[Boeroer]

Thanks a lot - but I've been wrong more than once.

Kaylon usually knows his stuff. And his statement was like 90% correct. ONly the "ie slash" part was wrong. I only realized that because I coincidentally tested this a few hours ago -  I was a bit disappointed by Durance's Staff's performance and wanted to know if the other "elemental" weapons also sucked like that.

[BlackArchon]

Hey wait, if I use Forgemaster's Glove and Durance's Staff, the game should use the staff's fire damage in most cases! So here I can use Scion of Flame to further increase the burn damage. This would also fit for my new paladin and Flames of Devotion.

[dunehunter]

And the truth is spirit of decay does not affect some part of damage bonus from weapon. For example, if you have Bittercut and its damage is 13-19 x (1 + 0.6* + 0.5**), where * means Legendary enchantment and ** means Might bonus. Spirit of decay will only affect enchantment bonus and not Might bonus. So the result will be 13-19 x 1.6 x 1.2 + 13-19 x 0.5, instead of 13-19 x 2.1 x 1.2. I test it a week ago. I'm pretty sure spirit of decay doesn't affect Critical Damage bonus too. It still good but is not as powerful as I thought. I haven't check other damage bonus like flank bonus, race bonus, sneak attack and so on. But my guess is it will only affect weapon's basic damage, not bonus from bonus of users.

[Braven]

It would be nice if there was a way to debuff only certain DR types to fool the game into picking the elemental type.

[Vorad]

Keep in mind that most armor types are weak against corrode in comparisson to Slash e.g. medium and heavy armors for instance. Also the mere fact that this weapon as a sabre has the highest base damage in comparison to the rest of the 1 handers makes it a worthy choice vs some of the 2 handers like Greatsword or Poleaxe, since you won't loose much base damage and on top of that you can profit from having a shield. At the moment I'm running a cipher with bittercut + Black Sanctuary + shoed in faith + Sanguine Plate etc etc, and I'm quite happy with the damage + focus it generates while at the same time it's not as squishy as 2 handed frontliner.

 

To sum up, most of the times you'll do corrosive damage simply because most enemies/armors have lower DR in comparisson to slash. Secondly it's a sabre and it has a really good base damage threshold the highest of all 1 handers and very close to a 2 hander, thirdly you can carry a small shield offering better protection and 1 more slot of durgan with all the beneffits it grants I think all these 3 mixed toghether make it a better choice than the +3 on average base damage and the 15% 2handed damage tactic of the 2 handers. Maybe in the case of bittercut vs tidefall just maybe tidefall might generate a bit more dps due to raw dot but for the survivability the shield might be better still.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Vorad

[Blunderboss]

You can always duplicate Bittercut with mold no 2hander comes even close to that , take into account that dual - wield already gives u 1.5 attack speed from the start so reaching 0 recovery is very easy 

[Braven]

Dual Bittercuts would work pretty well for DPS builds with lower accuracy (non-maxed perception) since they don't require crits to be good, like the other sabers with annilihilation enchant.

[Kaylon]

And the truth is spirit of decay does not affect some part of damage bonus from weapon. For example, if you have Bittercut and its damage is 13-19 x (1 + 0.6* + 0.5**), where * means Legendary enchantment and ** means Might bonus. Spirit of decay will only affect enchantment bonus and not Might bonus. So the result will be 13-19 x 1.6 x 1.2 + 13-19 x 0.5, instead of 13-19 x 2.1 x 1.2. I test it a week ago. I'm pretty sure spirit of decay doesn't affect Critical Damage bonus too. It still good but is not as powerful as I thought. I haven't check other damage bonus like flank bonus, race bonus, sneak attack and so on. But my guess is it will only affect weapon's basic damage, not bonus from bonus of users.

I did a few tests myself and I found a good news and a bad news. The bad news is Spirit of Decay stacks additively with the other damage bonuses. The good news is it increases also the slash damage.

[Boeroer]

ROFL - what the heck? Thanks for testing.

 

However - that doesn't quite explain why a Bleak Walker with Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay hits for over 130 DMG with FoD. Something else is going on there. If it would just add 20% the numbers would be way lower I guess.

 

Could you verify (only if it suits you of course) that Scion of Flame does the same with Durance's Staff? I had the impression that it doesn't. Maybe related to the order (corrode/slash and crush/burn). Or maybe my impression was not right.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

ROFL - what the heck? Thanks for testing.

 

However - that doesn't quite explain why a Bleak Walker with Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay hits for over 130 DMG with FoD. Something else is going on there. If it would just add 20% the numbers would be way lower I guess.

 

Could you verify (only if it suits you of course) that Scion of Flame does the same with Durance's Staff? I had the impression that it doesn't. Maybe related to the order (corrode/slash and crush/burn). Or maybe my impression was not right.

 

U can test it in a very simple way, wield Durance's Staff and pick Scion of Flame, open your character sheet you will see your damage total. Then use your character to attack others, pause right before he hit, while he is doing his animation, open your character sheet again, you will see the damage number is different. That is where Scion of Flame affect your weapon damage.

 

PS: do you mean dual wielding Bittercut hitting like 130 DMG? That's not that high IMO, with firearm and right talents u can hit over 200 even 300 damage in one shot.

Edited April 17, 2016 by dunehunter

[BlackArchon]

So are there any items, abilities or spells which reduce a foe's corrode or burn DR without touching slash/crush DR?

[Boeroer]

That is for one attack out of two (FoD is a Full Attack). So I think it's quite good. You don't need to switch anything and just stick to your sabres.

[Kaylon]

Could you verify (only if it suits you of course) that Scion of Flame does the same with Durance's Staff? I had the impression that it doesn't. Maybe related to the order (corrode/slash and crush/burn). Or maybe my impression was not right.

OK, I tested Durance's Staff and Stormcaller... Stormcaller main damage is shock and its damage (both types) is increased by Hearth of the Storm; also the shock debuff is applied before the hit (ie it checks always vs shock DR - 6). Scion of Flame however has absolutely no effect on Durance's Staff damage. The conclusion is elemental bonuses work only if the main damage is elemental and then both damage types are increased.

[Boeroer]

Thanks a lot for testing. I really appreciate it. It is as I suspected - and I don't think it's intended. 

[Braven]

Maybe there is buggy lash behavior when combined with spirit of decay. Since it also increases other damage types, maybe it buffs the fire lash too, independently? if it is additive for the weapn itself, how does it work with elemental lashes?

Edited April 18, 2016 by Braven

[Blunderboss]

It is maybe because Spirit of Decay increase bittercuts damage and then all paladin FoD lashes are scalled from increased damage and then the Bleak Walker corrosive part of lash gets boosted again by spirit of decay and then paladin can kill Concelhaut with 2 FoD ( 4 Strikes of Bittercut ) :D this is all just speculation tho 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Boeroer]

And the burn damage of FoD also gets boosted by Scion of Flame.

[Braven]

So are the lashes multicative and weapon itself additive?  OR both additive.  It isn't clear exactly how it works and of course the UI never explains how the math is done and the wording the same for both additive and multicative math. :/

 

If it applies to both, then the lashes basically get "double" boosted in some fashion.

 

I tried Spirit of Decay and Bittercut but it wasn't that impressive.  Didn't seem much different than other sabers.  But it only had 1 lash instead of 3 lashes like the paladin.  I also don't quite have deathblows and haven't tried backstab yet, but it would seem Bittercut is best with paladin.  Not bad with rogue, but not game breaking either.

[Braven]

If it is lashes that make the difference, monk should be really powerful.  Fully buffed, they have +45% fire lash, +25% Lightning lash, +25% (custom lash).  Torment's Reach also comes with a +50% damage modifier and an AOE effect.  It has lower accuracy, but is otherwise more damaging than FoD and can be used "unlimited" instead of twice/encounter.  Would be interesting to see if that is completely broken.

 

If it -is- buggy (and I don't think anyone would be surprised if it is) and spirit of decay increases all damage types done with Bittercut (it helps the "slash", so maybe?  Would need testing.), having more damage types is better since both elemental bonuses will apply to the lashes then.  Maybe the custom lash could be frost and you get all 4 element talents for the ultimate elemental monk?  Frost would also help the frost twin.  Would take a ton of talents though but I kind of like the theme.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Braven