US Election 2016

[Meshugger]

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

[Bartimaeus]

I fail to see what reason they might have other than "to make an armed insurrection harder".

 

And, well, it's not like GD hasn't shared with us his bonerific fantasies about his heroic last stand against the forces of an illegitimate government ordering its army to fight its citizens.

I personally like the self-defense and the "people who don't care about the law in general won't care about another law" angles better, rather than the anti-government stuff.

 

Personally, I do believe it's almost entirely about public safety. I just think it's really, really, entirely, the 100% wrong way to go about trying to fix the problem (in terms of what is right and ideal), and it wouldn't even fix the problem at this point (at least, not without disregarding the current rule of law and searching the entire populace for weapons and seizing them - there are just way, way too many guns already that it would be nearly useless; this also doesn't even take into account that, what, roughly half of the population is against further gun control? We've already tried the Noble Experiment: it didn't work, and it actually made things much, so much worse. Maybe it would start to become more effective after a significant amount of time...probably 50-100 years at the very least - but even so, I don't regard it as the correct course of action), and they should really stop trying.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

 

But that isn't what Guard Dog asked, or really even hinted at, at all. If it's not for public safety/crime control, what reason does the government have for disarming its citizenry? Guard Dog might have his reasons for not wanting the government to disarm him and the rest of the U.S., sure, but that has no relevancy to why certain members of the government do want to disarm him and the rest of the U.S. - unless those reasons are why the government want to disarm him and the rest of the U.S. in the first place, which you're saying they're not, anyways. So why do it?

No Barti, you Americans don't need so many guns ....we have a much, much higher murder rate and not everyone in  SA is armed 

 

Think there might be a connection?

 

Oh I see what you mean....no the high murder rate and brutal crime rate is part of the Apartheid legacy

[BruceVC]

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

[Valsuelm]

 

 

Okay, you both seem a little defensive. Its not worth debating this point unless you wanted to at least consider giving up your guns

Give up our guns? That is what you call a compromise?

 

 No, much stricter and effective gun control ownership laws and a TOTAL ban on automatic rifles

 

You've got a lot nerve Mr. VC.

 

You sit half a world away in one of the most thoroughly messed up nations on the planet earth, repeatedly admit you don't have the attention span to bother to spend time to fully understand any given issue, repeatedly exhibit gross cognitive dissonance regarding almost everything you ever talk about, repeatedly ignore logic, reason, and reality pointed out to you again and again by various people on this forum, yet you again and again actually engage in condescendingly telling folks in a nation you do not live in, what they should do with their guns, religion, media, and a whole slew of other things.

Why?

 

Frankly, because you don't think for yourself. You are a weaponized zombie. You just incessantly parrot talking points created for you by evils and their bought or willing minions.

 

Seriously, go read some books. Any book that is at least a few hundred pages, and that was written more than 50 years ago would be ideal . Find an attention span, and even if it hurts, use it.

[Valsuelm]

the fact that homicide is already illegal wasn't a deterrent; it is highly unlikely that making it also illegal to have a gun would have any significant effect.

Logic and reality works not on those pushing for more laws against guns.

 

Solving the problem of mass shootings is only possible when society as a whole starts looking at the multiple factors that lead people to the point that mass death seems to be a logical choice, and working back from that trying to mitigate those factors. "Magic bullets" need not apply.

Two things that the vast majority of the mass shootings in the U.S. have in common are:

 

A) They occurred in 'gun free zones'.

 

B) The perpetrator was whacked out on legally obtained and 'professionally' prescribed psychotropics.

 

The media by and large ignores both of these things, and only pushes the gun control agenda.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Okay, you both seem a little defensive. Its not worth debating this point unless you wanted to at least consider giving up your guns

Give up our guns? That is what you call a compromise?

 

 No, much stricter and effective gun control ownership laws and a TOTAL ban on automatic rifles

 

You've got a lot nerve Mr. VC.

 

You sit half a world away in one of the most thoroughly messed up nations on the planet earth, repeatedly admit you don't have the attention span to bother to spend time to fully understand any given issue, repeatedly exhibit gross cognitive dissonance regarding almost everything you ever talk about, repeatedly ignore logic, reason, and reality pointed out to you again and again by various people on this forum, yet you again and again actually engage in condescendingly telling folks in a nation you do not live in, what they should do with their guns, religion, media, and a whole slew of other things.

Why?

 

Frankly, because you don't think for yourself. You are a weaponized zombie. You just incessantly parrot talking points created for you by evils and their bought or willing minions.

 

Seriously, go read some books. Any book that is at least a few hundred pages, and that was written more than 50 years ago would be ideal . Find an attention span, and even if it hurts, use it.

 

Nah...I'm too stoooooooooooopid to read and I suffer from cognitive dissonance so I have no idea what you mean by hitting nerves  

 

Its interesting how you can barely even discuss gun control without some rant about me ....you remind me of LK, but you not as bad 

 

My country is not messed up, who said that? We have issues but remember I feel a sense of commitment

 

Vals if I'm right about my Hilary prediction  you will be first person I will ensure knows ...and I will be rubbing your face in it for days. You keep going on how stoooooooopid I am yet I have never heard you make one prediction about geo-politics that has been right 

[Meshugger]

 

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

 

 

You just can't help yourself, can you? But thanks for highlighting on how EU is bad Europe and western civilization at large.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I personally like the self-defense and the "people who don't care about the law in general won't care about another law" angles better, rather than the anti-government stuff.

 

 

 

Problem is that while guns most certainly won't protect you from your own government, they're also pretty damn unlikely to protect you from criminals either. According to the Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Surveys between 2012-2014, only 0.9% of intended victims of violent crimes and 0.2% of intended victims of property crimes even responded with threatening or attacking with a firearm (no stats about the effectiveness of such tactics as far as I can see).

 

Moreover: over a five year period between 2009-2013, only 1114 cases of justified homicide (committed in self-defense with a firearm) were observed, according to FBI statistics. That averages out to about 220 per year. On the other hand, there were 548 cases of fatal unintentional shootings in 2012 - you're more than twice as likely to get killed in an accident than you are to kill a criminal threatening you! It's also worth noting that tens of thousands of firearms (230k plus change over six years - somewhat less than 40k per annum) are reported stolen each year - contrast that statistic with the tiny number of justified homicides, or even the incidence of firearm use or threats thereof during crimes, violent or otherwise (about 260k over three years - let's go with somewhat less than 90k per annum)! Having lots of firearms lying around does not make people safer, quite the opposite.

 

 

 

I just think it's really, really, entirely, the 100% wrong way to go about trying to fix the problem (in terms of what is right and ideal), and it wouldn't even fix the problem at this point (at least, not without disregarding the current rule of law and searching the entire populace for weapons and seizing them - there are just way, way too many guns already that it would be nearly useless

 

 

 

That is a valid point. It may indeed be harder to implement such a change than the benefits would justify. Which is a fine reason in itself to be against gun control! There is no need for delusions about how "guns are the only thing protecting us from our government!" and "having guns makes us safer!".

Edited April 22, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid

[BruceVC]

 

 

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

 

 

You just can't help yourself, can you? But thanks for highlighting on how EU is bad Europe and western civilization at large.

 

OMG....please dont tell you are seriously complaining about the EU.,.,....

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

 

 

You just can't help yourself, can you? But thanks for highlighting on how EU is bad Europe and western civilization at large.

 

OMG....please dont tell you are seriously complaining about the EU.,.,....

 

 

Says the one who admits to preposterous idea that weapons haven't solved anything and that someone else should be in charge of your safety and rights. Considering the level of retort sounds like something a 12 year old girl would make....were you raised without a father figure? Or perhaps by a single mother?

 

Either way, stop drunkposting.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

 

 

You just can't help yourself, can you? But thanks for highlighting on how EU is bad Europe and western civilization at large.

 

OMG....please dont tell you are seriously complaining about the EU.,.,....

 

 

Says the one who admits to preposterous idea that weapons haven't solved anything and that someone else should be in charge of your safety and rights. Considering the level of retort sounds like something a 12 year old girl would make....were you raised without a father figure? Or perhaps by a single mother?

 

Either way, stop drunkposting.

 

I'm stoned not drunk....why you guys in such a bad mood ?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

 

 

You just can't help yourself, can you? But thanks for highlighting on how EU is bad Europe and western civilization at large.

 

OMG....please dont tell you are seriously complaining about the EU.,.,....

 

 

Says the one who admits to preposterous idea that weapons haven't solved anything and that someone else should be in charge of your safety and rights. Considering the level of retort sounds like something a 12 year old girl would make....were you raised without a father figure? Or perhaps by a single mother?

 

Either way, stop drunkposting.

 

I'm stoned not drunk....why you guys in such a bad mood ?

 

 

Hmmm, no sense of responsibility or awereness of surrounding atmosphere. Yup, sounds like the result of a weak, or the lack of, father figure.

 

No wonder you hate Trump.

[Bartimaeus]

Problem is that while guns most certainly won't protect you from your own government, they're also pretty damn unlikely to protect you from criminals either. According to the Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Surveys between 2012-2014, only 0.9% of intended victims of violent crimes and 0.2% of intended victims of property crimes even responded with threatening or attacking with a firearm (no stats about the effectiveness of such tactics as far as I can see).

 

Moreover: over a five year period between 2009-2013, only 1114 cases of justified homicide (committed in self-defense with a firearm) were observed, according to FBI statistics. That averages out to about 220 per year. On the other hand, there were 548 cases of fatal unintentional shootings in 2012 - you're more than twice as likely to get killed in an accident than you are to kill a criminal threatening you! It's also worth noting that tens of thousands of firearms (230k plus change over six years - somewhat less than 40k per annum) are reported stolen each year - contrast that statistic with the tiny number of justified homicides, or even the incidence of firearm use or threats thereof during crimes, violent or otherwise (about 260k over three years - let's go with somewhat less than 90k per annum)! Having lots of firearms lying around does not make people safer, quite the opposite.

 

That is a valid point. It may indeed be harder to implement such a change than the benefits would justify. Which is a fine reason in itself to be against gun control! There is no need for delusions about how "guns are the only thing protecting us from our government!" and "having guns makes us safer!".

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that, in the case of self-defense, I would necessarily actually be more safe on average in most situations - I don't think I actually did, to be fair to myself, but the connotation is unfortunately there (as it's a popular argument by pro-firearms folks). That is not the argument I'm trying to make (and based on your statistics you listed, it isn't likely to be a great one anyways in most cases). That's sort of...besides the point, in my mind, particularly seeing as statistics are based on the general population, rather than, you know, particular situations and individuals - some of whom do (based on your statistics) use firearms correctly, and do not cause accidental firearm killings. Rather, for me personally, it's more about simply the right to retain it as a sort of last resort option in cases where it *is* a requirement - the only case I would ever use it. Why do I feel this way? Well...I'll use an example: when my aunt was a young adult (around 19-20), she was still living with her parents (my grandparents). They were a victim of a home invasion in the middle of the night by a man who was, if I recall correctly, drunk and/or high, and who attempted to rape my aunt. She did not have a weapon, firearm or not, and it would've been...difficult for her to resolve the situation in a ideal manner by herself with what means she currently had at her disposal. My grandpa, however, woke up and quickly became aware of the situation, and quickly got his gun and confronted the man. Without the gun, my grandpa may not have been able to stop/overpower him. Even if he could've without it, what if he wasn't there? I believe my aunt should've had the ability to at least try to resolve the situation herself in regards to her own well-being (being the victim of a home invasion, after all), and to me, that's what firearms represent: they can be a sort of "great equalizer" between those more physically capable, and those not. If my aunt had had a gun, she would've at least had the capability (perhaps not the will, but the capability) to shoot that man and physically disable him - whether in severe injury or death: his well-being comes second as the one who's breaking the law and doing harm - in the event of there being no other way to handle the situation in an ideal manner.

 

So combine this (the fact that I consider the ability to not be able to defend yourself with guns to be non-ideal) with the problem of gun control just...not going to be effective or make hardly any difference at all for likely the rest of my life, and I just...I just can't get behind it. It's something that I just don't feel like I could ever persuaded differently in regards to - I'll certainly listen to other people's reasons for being pro-gun control, and I may agree that some of them are good...but I don't think I'll agree that they outweigh my own reasons and change my own opinion on the matter.

 

(e): Also, for what it's worth, I do not actually own any guns myself (and do not currently plan on obtaining any any time soon), and I did not grow up in a family that had any guns. Guns actually quite terrify me...but that doesn't mean I want to demonize them and for there to be no possibility of being able to obtain one in the event I feel like I need one, y'know?

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

As we all know, weapons haven't solved anything in this world and we should always trust someone else for our safety and for our rights.

Well thats basically what you have done when you joined the EU

 

 

You just can't help yourself, can you? But thanks for highlighting on how EU is bad Europe and western civilization at large.

 

OMG....please dont tell you are seriously complaining about the EU.,.,....

 

 

Says the one who admits to preposterous idea that weapons haven't solved anything and that someone else should be in charge of your safety and rights. Considering the level of retort sounds like something a 12 year old girl would make....were you raised without a father figure? Or perhaps by a single mother?

 

Either way, stop drunkposting.

 

I'm stoned not drunk....why you guys in such a bad mood ?

 

 

Hmmm, no sense of responsibility or awereness of surrounding atmosphere. Yup, sounds like the result of a weak, or the lack of, father figure.

 

No wonder you hate Trump.

 

Well that is true, my parents were divorced when I was 1 and I  was raised by my mom in a matriarch society 

 

But I saw my dad every 3rd weekend as he was a banker and always working....so I didnt have a father figure but I dont regret being raised by women as gender equality  was instilled in me 

 

So do you think thats the issue ...no father figure. But my dad took us overseas on holiday every year since I was about 9, that is very lucky...you throw money at the guilt of not seeing your kids?

 

So how do I fix myself ? What do you suggest I do?

 

But now you understand why I am such supporter of womens rights and yes its one of the reasons  I don't like Trump..but I dont hate him 

Edited April 22, 2016 by BruceVC

[Bartimaeus]

Well that is true, my parents were divorced when I was 1 and I  was raised by my mom in a matriarch society 

 

But I saw my dad every 3rd weekend as he was a banker and always working....so I didnt have a father figure but I dont regret being raised by women as gender equality  was instilled in me 

 

So do you think thats the issue ...no father figure. But my dad took us overseas on holiday every year since I was about 9, that is very lucky...you throw money at the guilt of not seeing your kids?

 

So how do I fix myself ? What do you suggest I do?

 

But now you understand why I am such supporter of womens rights and yes its one of the Trump I don't like Trump..but I dont hate him

I hate to say it - to specifically you, that is - but Meshugger is trolling you. A single parent (mother or father) does not a person define. Don't feed the trolls - at least, not when they're actually trolling.

 

P.S. I'm probably only obligated to say this because I was raised by only my mother, too.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

Well that is true, my parents were divorced when I was 1 and I  was raised by my mom in a matriarch society 

 

But I saw my dad every 3rd weekend as he was a banker and always working....so I didnt have a father figure but I dont regret being raised by women as gender equality  was instilled in me 

 

So do you think thats the issue ...no father figure. But my dad took us overseas on holiday every year since I was about 9, that is very lucky...you throw money at the guilt of not seeing your kids?

 

So how do I fix myself ? What do you suggest I do?

 

But now you understand why I am such supporter of womens rights and yes its one of the Trump I don't like Trump..but I dont hate him

I hate to say it - to specifically you, that is - but Meshugger is trolling you. A single parent (mother or father) does not a person define. Don't feed the trolls - at least, not when they're actually trolling.

 

P.S. I'm probably only obligated to say this because I was raised by only my mother, too.

 

Exactly, I dont  think being raised by a mom is bad?You get raised with love and that does matter 

 

And we use to see my cousins who had married parents but I didnt ever play baseball or catch and my mom never really had boyfriends

 

So I  doubt that is my problem because there are lots of kids raised like we were 

[Oerwinde]

I think the only gun control that might make a difference at this point is biometric locks. So the gun can't fire unless its in the hands of the legal purchaser.

[BruceVC]

I think the only gun control that might make a difference at this point is biometric locks. So the gun can't fire unless its in the hands of the legal purchaser.

HI Oerwinde " waves " 

 

Can we discuss Magicians in the TV series thread ?

Edited April 22, 2016 by BruceVC

[Wrath of Dagon]

Automatic weapons are not illegal. You need to pay for a federal license and ATF can show up at your house at any time to make sure you're keeping it secure, so most people don't bother. As far as self-defense homicides being rare, it's not unusual for a gun owner to pull out a gun and the criminal to run away. There was a story just the other day. Not to mention what our large criminal class would do to us if they knew we were defenseless.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ8ERBr9yKI&feature=youtu.be

 

If you replaced any Bruce post with a verse from this song there wouldn't be much of a difference.

Edited April 23, 2016 by KaineParker

[Meshugger]

 

Well that is true, my parents were divorced when I was 1 and I  was raised by my mom in a matriarch society 

 

But I saw my dad every 3rd weekend as he was a banker and always working....so I didnt have a father figure but I dont regret being raised by women as gender equality  was instilled in me 

 

So do you think thats the issue ...no father figure. But my dad took us overseas on holiday every year since I was about 9, that is very lucky...you throw money at the guilt of not seeing your kids?

 

So how do I fix myself ? What do you suggest I do?

 

But now you understand why I am such supporter of womens rights and yes its one of the Trump I don't like Trump..but I dont hate him

I hate to say it - to specifically you, that is - but Meshugger is trolling you. A single parent (mother or father) does not a person define. Don't feed the trolls - at least, not when they're actually trolling.

 

P.S. I'm probably only obligated to say this because I was raised by only my mother, too.

 

 

Oh, there's only trolling to certain degree. Raised by a single parent is not necessarily detriment to a child's development in some cases, but in others it might be.

 

I was sincerely curious because i Bruce's behaviour just seems odd at times, like him using the same infantile arguments girls would do to tease boys and then seeming to be 1) completely surprised by the "colorful" responses, 2) failing to understand why he gets them and 3) finally shifts the blame on those responding for being mean in their tone. 

 

I have suspected as much for a long time and his life story explains it well.

 

There's more that could be said, but i leave him alone for now. My suspicions were warranted and i got what i wanted. Cheerio!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

As far as self-defense homicides being rare, it's not unusual for a gun owner to pull out a gun and the criminal to run away. 

 

 

Actually, yes, it is unusual - according to the NCVS, the intended victim pulling a gun on their assailant only happens in 0,9% of violent and 0,2% of property crimes, and it must be even more rare for this to have the intended effect (sadly, I have no numbers on that though).

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well that is true, my parents were divorced when I was 1 and I  was raised by my mom in a matriarch society 

 

But I saw my dad every 3rd weekend as he was a banker and always working....so I didnt have a father figure but I dont regret being raised by women as gender equality  was instilled in me 

 

So do you think thats the issue ...no father figure. But my dad took us overseas on holiday every year since I was about 9, that is very lucky...you throw money at the guilt of not seeing your kids?

 

So how do I fix myself ? What do you suggest I do?

 

But now you understand why I am such supporter of womens rights and yes its one of the Trump I don't like Trump..but I dont hate him

I hate to say it - to specifically you, that is - but Meshugger is trolling you. A single parent (mother or father) does not a person define. Don't feed the trolls - at least, not when they're actually trolling.

 

P.S. I'm probably only obligated to say this because I was raised by only my mother, too.

 

 

Oh, there's only trolling to certain degree. Raised by a single parent is not necessarily detriment to a child's development in some cases, but in others it might be.

 

I was sincerely curious because i Bruce's behaviour just seems odd at times, like him using the same infantile arguments girls would do to tease boys and then seeming to be 1) completely surprised by the "colorful" responses, 2) failing to understand why he gets them and 3) finally shifts the blame on those responding for being mean in their tone. 

 

I have suspected as much for a long time and his life story explains it well.

 

There's more that could be said, but i leave him alone for now. My suspicions were warranted and i got what i wanted. Cheerio!

 

Shame poor you, do you get teased by girls regularly ? Is that why you recognize the pattern?

 

 

[Valsuelm]

 

As far as self-defense homicides being rare, it's not unusual for a gun owner to pull out a gun and the criminal to run away. 

 

 

Actually, yes, it is unusual - according to the NCVS, the intended victim pulling a gun on their assailant only happens in 0,9% of violent and 0,2% of property crimes, and it must be even more rare for this to have the intended effect (sadly, I have no numbers on that though).

 

 

While it might be unusual, it doesn't really matter for the sake of the arguments at hand.

 

Also, the NCVS has a number of fundamental problems with the methodology in which it's conducted, not the least of which is that it's generally only looking at data that law enforcement is ever told about, which is certainly not representative of reality. Believe it or not, there no small number of people out there who do not call the police when violence or threat of it occurs. In fact, I'd say it's probably safe to say that majority of the violence and especially the majority of the threat of violence that ever occurs in the U.S., aside from the kind that's very hard to hide (such as murder) is never reported to the government. The NCVS really isn't a good place to look for accurate data on much of anything. Certainly not this.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Valsuelm