Are you going to release Tyranny on GOG?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

What are "marketing fees"? Signing legal agreements has lawyers' fees if anything which is a one time thing.

 

 

Visibility in stores that sell hundreds/thousands of products don't usually come free.

 

 

Stores are paid by splitting sales percentages, i.e. sharing profits. It's not free sure, but that's expected. You don't need to pay anything upfront to them though. So I'm not sure what you mean by "marketing fees". It's the first time I hear about it.

 

 

Stores are paid percentage for every copy they sell, but if you want them to promote your game you can be quite sure that you need to pay them extra to do so. Of course there are cases where stores offer to promote your product if your sell it through them but in those cases you usually have product that store things that will bring them new customers, which is why they are paying to you to get your customers to use their store. And of course sometimes stores just do independent marketing for products that they think their existing customer base will be interested in.

 

As for example in scenario where you want to your product be shown in store's adds in web pages outside of said store for example YouTube ads by said store then that store will most likely make you pay for such promotion, by direct fee or by higher percentage of sales or some other way. Because said store has lots of products which makers/publishers/developers/etc. want their products be the ones that are show in those ads, because those ads are thing that usually increase sales of shown products significantly. Also number of products that can be shown on those ads are very limited, which increases value of getting your product in those ads. And usually product makers/developers/publishers/etc. want to promote/market their products because it isn't enough that it is in store if nobody knows that it is there.

[shmerl]

Well, paying for advertising is something that you decide of course, but it's not a requirement to be accepted in the store. I suppose with Steam it's a bigger issue because it's massive, and getting lost in the noise there is much easier. GOG releases are much more focused and developers get instant exposure just by the fact of the release. Every release on GOG has announcement and summary by the GOG team on the front page. I don't think developers need to pay for it.

Edited March 17, 2016 by shmerl

[Hurlshort]

Well, paying for advertising is something that you decide of course, but it's not a requirement to be accepted in the store. I suppose with Steam it's a bigger issue because it's massive, and getting lost in the noise there is much easier. GOG releases are much more focused and developers get instant exposure just by the fact of the release. Every release on GOG has announcement and summary by the GOG team on the front page. I don't think developers need to pay for it.

 

So...did you start the petition yet?

[shmerl]

 

So...did you start the petition yet?

 

 

I already gave you the link above. See https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/tyranny

Feel free to vote.

Edited March 17, 2016 by shmerl

[Elerond]

Well, paying for advertising is something that you decide of course, but it's not a requirement to be accepted in the store. I suppose with Steam it's a bigger issue because it's massive, and getting lost in the noise there is much easier. GOG releases are much more focused and developers get instant exposure just by the fact of the release. Every release on GOG has announcement and summary by the GOG team on the front page. I don't think developers need to pay for it.

 

Marketing is something that you need to do if you want to sell copies, if you don't get lottery jack pot and get your product become viral sensation for some reason other than marketing.

Developers pay for that announcement in GOG, but I think it is included in their regular fee. There is probably options to get more coverage in the store with additional fees. GOG offers that promotion because they want developers and publisher to release their products also there, and it has worked to some extend to lure indie developers in, but larger studios and publishers have yet mostly used GOG as place where they re-release their games to get bit more out of them. Although that is somewhat result from GOG originally focusing on old games, which let them to build their customer base by offering products that really nobody else was offering, but it has created them imago that they now try to shake off as they try to get more new releases in their service.

[shmerl]

They provide new releases for a long time already (of those who are interested in releasing DRM-free of course). Since around 2012 in fact. So they don't have an image of being focused on old games only anymore. But surely they still dedicate time to reviving old games as before, so that didn't change.

Edited March 17, 2016 by shmerl

[Elerond]

They provide new releases for a long time already (of those who are interested in releasing DRM-free of course). Since around 2012 in fact. So they don't have an image of being focused on old games only anymore. But surely they still dedicate time to reviving old games as before, so that didn't change.

 

Long time/short time don't really matter (for publishers), what matters is how many copies that coverage averagely sells. Many indie developers say that day on Steam front page moves more copies than they usually can sell in week/month (depending on size and popularity of said developer).  GOG started to shift their focus to new and newer games during release of Witcher 2. But for example last year when I asked my friend why he didn't buy PoE from GOG, he answered "oh I though that GOG sells only old games". One example I admit, but I have seen similar comments in all around internet, so they have not yet been fully successful in getting public know shift on their focus. GOG dedication for old games has diminished in past several years quite lot, of course there is only limited amount of old games to release, but there are quite lot of old games that I would like to see in GOG (or in some other place that is willing to make them work on new computers without needing to see lot of effort)  but interest to bring those old classics seems to be quite low these days.

 

One thing that probably increases GOG's allure today is Steam's over saturation by all short of questionable quality indie games, that have made at least some indie developers seek other avenues to sell their games.

[ShadySands]

I'm actually mostly with shmerl on this one especially if the argument against a GOG release is marketing

 

I don't expect there would be a separate marketing campaign for GOG and the overall strategy wouldn't change much ( maybe things like promotion on GOG , web adverts may add the line "and GOG" under Steam, etc) if at all. Sure it's still extra cost, everything is in one way or another, but that's where Paradox would have to look at if it's worth it

 

Overall, I'd say since they've tied themselves heavily to Steam at this point I would guess that in their minds it's not worth it but I don't think marketing is a factor

Edited March 18, 2016 by ShadySands

[shmerl]

 

One thing that probably increases GOG's allure today is Steam's over saturation by all short of questionable quality indie games, that have made at least some indie developers seek other avenues to sell their games.

 

 

I'd say Steam quality control is low in general, no matter whether it's games from independent self funded studios, or studios funded by big publishers. Remember Batman: Arkham Knight release fiasco? GOG have at least some QA in place in addition to their selection process.

 

Regarding old games - GOG work on them as before. They basically have three somewhat independent divisions in the company. First works on restoring old games both legally, and technically (digital archeology / detective work). Second works on helping independent studios to release there, and third works with legacy publishers, convincing them to start releasing DRM-free (with stuff like giving financial presentations and so on).

 

 

There was a good article about it here: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/09/16/how-gog-com-save-and-restore-classic-videogames/

Edited March 17, 2016 by shmerl

[Hurlshort]

 

 

So...did you start the petition yet?

 

 

I already gave you the link above. See https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/tyranny

Feel free to vote.

 

 

Ah, I missed it earlier.  I added a vote.  Do you think it gets enough exposure there?  It looks like it is doing alright, 70 votes so far.  It will need a good deal more to get attention though.

[Elerond]

I'm actually mostly with shmerl on this one especially if the argument against a GOG release is marketing

 

I don't expect there would be a separate marketing campaign for GOG and the overall strategy wouldn't change much ( maybe things like promotion on GOG, web adverts may add the line "and GOG" under Steam, etc) if at all. Sure it's still extra cost, everything is in one way or another, but that's where Paradox would have to look at if it's worth it

 

Since they've tied themselves heavily to Steam at this point I would guess that in their minds it's not

 

Paradox (Obsidian) did test quite lot of different stores with PoE. On this forums we have seen some results of that (like people complaining that GOG version didn't have achievements and cloud saves and how patches were late and how there was no beta patches for GOG version etc. Problems with Mac App store version, how patches are very late for DRM free dvd version and how there is no expansion for it, problems in upgrading to higher tier editions in gog versions, how there are virtual no origin version owners in these forums [this of course maybe because of fact that KS backers got their copies in Steam or GOG] etc.). Paradox probably will use data and experience they have gathered with PoE to decide if they release or not Tyranny to GOG and other stores.

[ShadySands]

 

I'm actually mostly with shmerl on this one especially if the argument against a GOG release is marketing

 

I don't expect there would be a separate marketing campaign for GOG and the overall strategy wouldn't change much ( maybe things like promotion on GOG, web adverts may add the line "and GOG" under Steam, etc) if at all. Sure it's still extra cost, everything is in one way or another, but that's where Paradox would have to look at if it's worth it

 

Since they've tied themselves heavily to Steam at this point I would guess that in their minds it's not

 

Paradox (Obsidian) did test quite lot of different stores with PoE. On this forums we have seen some results of that (like people complaining that GOG version didn't have achievements and cloud saves and how patches were late and how there was no beta patches for GOG version etc. Problems with Mac App store version, how patches are very late for DRM free dvd version and how there is no expansion for it, problems in upgrading to higher tier editions in gog versions, how there are virtual no origin version owners in these forums [this of course maybe because of fact that KS backers got their copies in Steam or GOG] etc.). Paradox probably will use data and experience they have gathered with PoE to decide if they release or not Tyranny to GOG and other stores.

 

 

I understand that there are other issues and concerns, I was saying that I don't believe marketing to be a major one

 

But that's just like my opinion, man

[shmerl]

Ah, I missed it earlier.  I added a vote.  Do you think it gets enough exposure there?  It looks like it is doing alright, 70 votes so far.  It will need a good deal more to get attention though.

 

 

To increase exposure, try spreading the word. The more daily votes it gets, the higher it's in the list. If you can bring it in front community page - it would get the most exposure (for that day at least).

Edited March 17, 2016 by shmerl

[Zoraptor]

The GOG wishlist is counter productive, hardly anyone uses it.

 

And the problems with PoE on non steam are all constructed problems. Why no upgrade paths? Paradox thinks there's no demand; of course Paradox thinks there's no demand for a drm free version so of course there's no demand for upgrades to those not in demand versions. Why late patches? Because they're rolled out to steam preferentially. Etc. Etc. They're not inherent problems or advantages, they're problems because Paradox favours steam and closing everything off into the steam ecosystem- which is, of course, the whole point of the steam ecosystem. Like Workshop, you'd think that mods didn't exist before that when all it really is is Embrace, Extend, Extinguish Extract

 

 

 

Stores are paid percentage for every copy they sell, but if you want them to promote your game you can be quite sure that you need to pay them extra to do so.

 

 

Do you have any evidence that digital stores do that? I know that high street physical stores of the E(lectronics)B(outique) or Walmart ilk did but then the model there is distinctly different and involves physical stock with handling costs and physical locations and staff with significant day to day costs, with everything taking up limited space. 99% of marketing at estores like GOG/ Steam consists of pre order/ launch day/ sales; and there is no physical space to take up, physical billboards that need fabricating or someone to put them up etc etc. The only thing that even approaches a store fee I'm aware of is steam's charge for Greenlight, and that was mainly to stop joke games being entered.

 

I did look myself, briefly, but if there's anything about it it's buried in a million 'dota 2 marketplace market fees' type stuff.

[Elerond]

The GOG wishlist is counter productive, hardly anyone uses it.

 

And the problems with PoE on non steam are all constructed problems. Why no upgrade paths? Paradox thinks there's no demand; of course Paradox thinks there's no demand for a drm free version so of course there's no demand for upgrades to those not in demand versions. Why late patches? Because they're rolled out to steam preferentially. Etc. Etc. They're not inherent problems or advantages, they're problems because Paradox favours steam and closing everything off into the steam ecosystem- which is, of course, the whole point of the steam ecosystem. Like Workshop, you'd think that mods didn't exist before that when all it really is is Embrace, Extend, Extinguish Extract

 

 

 

Stores are paid percentage for every copy they sell, but if you want them to promote your game you can be quite sure that you need to pay them extra to do so.

 

 

Do you have any evidence that digital stores do that? I know that high street physical stores of the E(lectronics)B(outique) or Walmart ilk did but then the model there is distinctly different and involves physical stock with handling costs and physical locations and staff with significant day to day costs, with everything taking up limited space. 99% of marketing at estores like GOG/ Steam consists of pre order/ launch day/ sales; and there is no physical space to take up, physical billboards that need fabricating or someone to put them up etc etc. The only thing that even approaches a store fee I'm aware of is steam's charge for Greenlight, and that was mainly to stop joke games being entered.

 

I did look myself, briefly, but if there's anything about it it's buried in a million 'dota 2 marketplace market fees' type stuff.

 

I can't say for sure when it comes to Steam, Origin, GOG etc. because I have never sold anything in them. But in Amazon you can pay to get you product promoted and lot of other similar web stores do same. And those promotions usually work quite well as your products are displayed/emailed/shown in other web pages (amazon ads) to everybody that have looked similar products in amazon or other places that amazon owns. So I would be somewhat surprised if game stores don't do same.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Elerond

[shmerl]

The GOG wishlist is counter productive, hardly anyone uses it.

 

 

 

 

That's incorrect. Firstly, GOG users use it primarily (after all it's about GOG, so that's natural). Secondly, GOG themselves use it to show demand to potential developers / publishers. It is used, and they pay attention, so if you have interest - express it by voting.

Edited March 17, 2016 by shmerl

[shmerl]

I updated the first post with GOG wishlist entry.

[Zoraptor]

 

 

I can't say for sure when it comes to Steam, Origin, GOG etc. because I have never sold anything in them. But in Amazon you can pay to get you product promoted and lot of other similar web stores do same. And those promotions usually work quite well as your products are displayed/emailed/shown in other web pages (amazon ads) to everybody that have looked similar products in amazon or other places that amazon owns. So I would be somewhat surprised if game stores don't do same.

 

 

Amazon has far more in common with bricks and mortar stores than any gaming etailer has.

 

Really though, you were pretty definite about a fee being charged, and explicit about GOG charging a fee so you'll have to come up with better evidence than that if you want to prove it. I can't even remember marketing fees and the like being implied for GOG/ steam let alone outright stated as happening. And let's be honest, I'm not steam's #1 fan so I would love them to be doing such things since I could then use terms like and 'Embrace, Extend, Extort' about them; but I very much doubt they or GOG are doing any such thing. PR nightmare and, as above, 99% of estore game marketing is pre order/ release/ sales rather than day to day marketing.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

I can't say for sure when it comes to Steam, Origin, GOG etc. because I have never sold anything in them. But in Amazon you can pay to get you product promoted and lot of other similar web stores do same. And those promotions usually work quite well as your products are displayed/emailed/shown in other web pages (amazon ads) to everybody that have looked similar products in amazon or other places that amazon owns. So I would be somewhat surprised if game stores don't do same.

 

 

Amazon has far more in common with bricks and mortar stores than any gaming etailer has.

 

Really though, you were pretty definite about a fee being charged, and explicit about GOG charging a fee so you'll have to come up with better evidence than that if you want to prove it. I can't even remember marketing fees and the like being implied for GOG/ steam let alone outright stated as happening. And let's be honest, I'm not steam's #1 fan so I would love them to be doing such things since I could then use terms like and 'Embrace, Extend, Extort' about them; but I very much doubt they or GOG are doing any such thing. PR nightmare and, as above, 99% of estore game marketing is pre order/ release/ sales rather than day to day marketing.

 

 

I am pretty sure that I didn't specify any stores and I even tried not to imply any store. I specifically tried to keep my post so that I only speak in generally about things. Please be nice and point where I have said that specifically GOG is charging a fee, so that I can fix my post.

 

EDIT: I asked about paying promotion on Steam and there isn't currently direct option to pay for Valve to get promotion in Steam storefront. Which is currently controlled by Valve's curator algorithm that based on certain things (like reviews, user reviews, Steam curators, game library,  etc. factors ) decides which games are shown in front page. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Elerond

[Zoraptor]

Sure, no probs:

 

 

[..]

 

[..] Developers pay for that announcement in GOG, but I think it is included in their regular fee. There is probably options to get more coverage in the store with additional fees. [..]

 

[Elerond]

 

Sure, no probs:

 

 

[..]

 

[..] Developers pay for that announcement in GOG, but I think it is included in their regular fee. There is probably options to get more coverage in the store with additional fees. [..]

 

 

 

In there I am saying that I think that regular percentage that developers pay for GOG covers GOG's promotion on their site and I speculate that GOG may offer additional coverage for those who pay more. So in other words developers that sell their games in GOG pay for GOG to promote, as part of their platform fee, but I don't know for sure if that is the case, which is why I put doubt in my sentence by adding I think. 

[shmerl]

The bottom line - main marketing expenses don't go to stores like GOG or Steam (that's why I said, I've never heard of any marketing fees which go along with being accepted in the store). They are either directed at physical retailers, or campaigns in the media and such. So it's not a drag on releasing in additional digital stores like some tried to claim above.

Edited March 18, 2016 by shmerl

[Rosbjerg]

Based on what? Steams/GOGs attitude towards smaller indie games? Because yeah they get great distribution deals, as both platform are hoping to consolidate the market under their portfolio.

 

It's extremely costly to release a larger game, on any medium or platform. You're paying GOG or Steam a hefty amount, since they have to host, support and handle the bandwidth of your product for as long as you're keeping it on their servers - something you are gonna generously compensate them for.. And not just by letting them take a small percentage of the profits off sales.

 

There's obviously marketing fees associated with this as well - as you have to pay them to promote your game through their channels.. and if you're not doing physical advertising or aggressively pushing for online column space etc. this is gonna be a good portion of your marketing expenses. Obviously...

 

I get that you wanna see a release through GOG, but remember that it's far from free or cheap for any developer to distribute their game through any platform. Otherwise you would obviously see everyone publishing through any available medium and the big publishing agencies would be redundant.

[Zoraptor]

It's extremely costly to release a larger game, on any medium or platform. You're paying GOG or Steam a hefty amount, since they have to host, support and handle the bandwidth of your product for as long as you're keeping it on their servers - something you are gonna generously compensate them for.. And not just by letting them take a small percentage of the profits off sales.

 

There's obviously marketing fees associated with this as well - as you have to pay them to promote your game through their channels..

 

Really? Should be easy to provide proof then.

 

Dunno where this is coming from but this thread is literally the first time I've ever seen that said about either GOG or steam. If steam charged for being on the store there might not- would not- be so much crappy shovelware released.

 

30% is a huge cut, practically speaking. Indeed that 30% cut provides revenue the same (or more) as the PoE kickstarter provided, to steam/ gog from PoE and (theoretically at least) that's the same size as the budget for making the game gained for sticking it in a server farm and firing off the 1s and 0s.

[Messier-31]

Steam is a dealbreaker imo.