Main Story, an atheist cliche?

[Brimsurfer]

Does anyone else think the main story of the game is quite unoriginal, it seems more like a story that an atheist parent would tell his child before putting him to bed?......there are no Gods, its all the creation of some people in old times and blah blah blah.......

 

I mean I honestly believe they could have done much better than that...........most of the dialogue in Act 4 seems like a piece from some kind of atheist text lol.........

 

On a seperate note, the main story of the game seems quite vague because if all these so called Gods in the game, (who are later revealed as creationi of Engwithans) , what are they? What kind of creation are they? The game leaves so many loopholes in the main story that to me it all seems like a lump of mumbo jumbo..........it appears that there was no authentic procedure involved in building up this fantasy.

 

At least that's the impression I got from my playthroughs.

[Gromnir]

am gonna disagree with you... again.  poe handling o' gods is quite clever.  is few thematic questions as powerful as faith, o' which religious faith is one aspect. manifest gods who grant boons and chastise the unworthy is destroying potential themes related to religious faith.  don't need faith to believe in a god that provides tangible rewards and harsh punishments, eh?  that being said, poe does not destroy the gods.  the known gods is human constructs, but that doesn't preclude the existence o' genuine gods.  poe adopts a clever way to reintroduce questions o' faith into a game that has traditional crpg spell granting gods.  

 

*shrug*

 

you got it complete reversed.  poe approach, unlike the majority o' crpgs with manifest gods, makes faith relevant.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we do think brim has... issues.  

[Brimsurfer]

am gonna disagree with you... again.  poe handling o' gods is quite clever.  is few thematic questions as powerful as faith, o' which religious faith is one aspect. manifest gods who grant boons and chastise the unworthy is destroying potential themes related to religious faith.  don't need faith to believe in a god that provides tangible rewards and harsh punishments, eh?  that being said, poe does not destroy the gods.  the known gods is human constructs, but that doesn't preclude the existence o' genuine gods.  poe adopts a clever way to reintroduce questions o' faith into a game that has traditional crpg spell granting gods.  

 

*shrug*

 

you got it complete reversed.  poe approach, unlike the majority o' crpgs with manifest gods, makes faith relevant.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we do think brim has... issues.  

 

Where does it even hint that there might be an actual deity, in the whole game? 

 

Go back to the closing act of the game, point out a single sentence that even hints that............and all dialogue choices suggest that anything to do with Gods is a complete lie.....

 

ps we do think grom has...... an specific issue...

Edited March 7, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Gromnir]

the game specific notes that people believed in gods before the fake gods were created.  nothing 'bout created gods sudden invalidated the potential for a higher power even if a particular dead culture were convinced that no genuine gods actual existed.  

 

and again, an "actual deity" is antithetical to questions o' faith.  if an actual deity were offered in poe, you would once again remove faith as a thematic option.  are you missing the point?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[butterfly]

 

Where does it even hint that there might be an actual deity, in the whole game or even in lore ? 

 

 

The evidence is about the same as in our own world? The game does state that before the creation of the new gods there were existing religions. In fact some of those may in fact still survive somewhere in Eora. Hell, the druidic faiths could be categorized as such.

 

Also 'actual deities', your own bias is showing.

[Brimsurfer]

the game specific notes that people believed in gods before the fake gods were created.  nothing 'bout created gods sudden invalidated the potential for a higher power even if a particular dead culture were convinced that no genuine gods actual existed.  

 

and again, an "actual deity" is antithetical to questions o' faith.  if an actual deity were offered in poe, you would once again remove faith as a thematic option.  are you missing the point?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It also specifically says that even those gods very false.........

 

Why would I remove faith as a thematic option, if an actual deity were offered in the game? Faith is the basis of all religions of the world specially the 3 dominant Abrahamic religeons .... 

[butterfly]

 

It also specifically says that even those gods very false.........

 

 

It really doesn't.

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

Where does it even hint that there might be an actual deity, in the whole game or even in lore ? 

 

 

The evidence is about the same as in our own world? The game does state that before the creation of the new gods there were existing religions. In fact some of those may in fact still survive somewhere in Eora. Hell, the druidic faiths could be categorized as such.

 

Also 'actual deities', your own bias is showing.

 

 

Yea and the game also states that even those religions were false..........and you are right in this game druidic faith is the same, as it also talks about believing in things other than deities.........

 

'Every force has an equal and opposite reaction', is my reaction to the game's story is really a bias to you?

[Caribou]

 

 

 

Where does it even hint that there might be an actual deity, in the whole game or even in lore ? 

 

 

The evidence is about the same as in our own world? The game does state that before the creation of the new gods there were existing religions. In fact some of those may in fact still survive somewhere in Eora. Hell, the druidic faiths could be categorized as such.

 

Also 'actual deities', your own bias is showing.

 

 

Yea and the game also states that even those religions were false..........and you are right in this game druidic faith is the same, as it also talks about believing in things other than deities.........

 

'Every force has an equal and opposite reaction', is my reaction to the game's story is really a bias to you?

 

 

I think Butterfly's point was directed at your "actual deities" comment.  Specifically, how does one define a god...and why do PoE gods not meet those criteria?

[Tigranes]

Game never says any other gods were false, all you ever learn is the details about the current pantheon. 

 

I find POE ending tends to depend on the eye of the beholder. Someone who is only able to think about gods/religion in terms of "is the god real or is it fake" thinks that as soon as you learn about their creation, these gods are just fake and meaningless. Which is exactly what Thaos and Iovara, both in their own way would tell you otherwise - and all the other plots in this game, like Sagani's and the sideplots in Twin Elms, caution against. The Engwithan gods, after all, do exist, and they can even speak and have power in the world. So what do you do with that? To tell everyone the gods are fake and should be struck down is to actually fight against existing, powerful gods. To just pretend it never happened has its own issues. The entire point of the ending is that it's not so simple as 'lol gods r fake'.

 

After all, faith is not defined by having forensic proof that your god exists, at least not in our universe.

[butterfly]

 

Yea and the game also states that even those religions were false..........and you are right in this game druidic faith is the same, as it also talks about believing in things other than deities.........

 

'Every force has an equal and opposite reaction', is my reaction to the game's story is really a bias to you?

 

 

The bias remark was just a jokey remark about your use of the singular for 'deity'. If you want to go in to it, even insisting that the 'divine' must be incarnated in some 'being' is actually biased. There are religions on our own Earth that don't do that.

 

And to be clear the game only has characters tell you they believed that they were false. Most of that story conveyed by two very biased people.

[Gromnir]

 

the game specific notes that people believed in gods before the fake gods were created.  nothing 'bout created gods sudden invalidated the potential for a higher power even if a particular dead culture were convinced that no genuine gods actual existed.  

 

and again, an "actual deity" is antithetical to questions o' faith.  if an actual deity were offered in poe, you would once again remove faith as a thematic option.  are you missing the point?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It also specifically says that even those gods very false.........

 

Why would I remove faith as a thematic option, if an actual deity were offered in the game? Faith is the basis of all religions of the world specially the 3 dominant Abrahamic religeons .... 

 

you aren't making any sense.  honest.  

 

the existence o' manifest gods precludes the need for faith, so the developers transformed the current poe gods into human constructs.  multiple gods and faiths existed before the created gods were constructed. those religions, like real world religions, were dependant 'pon faith.

 

once the secret o' the gods is revealed, will people lose faith in the constructs?  we would guess that some folks will have their belief system tested. so what happens in game 2?  will folks search for and create new avenues for their faith?  we expect so.  

 

is an interesting and unique situation for a crpg.  

 

regardless, you have misapprehensions 'bout poe that we doubt is genuine.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[butterfly]

To be fair to Brimsurfer. The lead designer is an atheist with an interest in religion (specifically medieval christianity). I'm sure the writing staff included both believers and sceptics.

 

But I don't think the story is cliché, or biased towards atheism. Full disclosure I'm also an atheist.

[Zenbane]

 

Atheists have a non-belief in a God, and the concept of a soul comes directly from the idea of a God. If you claim to be an Atheist but deny that connection between a God and a soul, then you are likely just an Atheist in label as opposed to practice. And by practice I mean "thought."

The Christian concept of a soul comes from God (as does literally everything in the Christian world view), but Christians don't have a monopoly on the word "soul" and, if by soul we mean an immaterial essence of a person that may (or may not) continue to exist after their death, there's absolutely no reason one cannot believe in souls but not God or gods. Indeed an awful lot of people do.

 

What is "an atheist in practice"? Atheism isn't a religion, there are no practices associated to it. It's merely a description of a belief, or more accurately a non-belief.

 

The concept of a soul not only spans multiple cultures and religions, but also predates the time that Christ walked the earth. But that is information that comes from research which does tend to require more effort than the effortless practice of "non-belief." If anything, the mere fact that so much effort went in to PoE as a product is an argument against the fundamental principles behind Atheism.

[JerekKruger]

The concept of a soul not only spans multiple cultures and religions, but also predates the time that Christ walked the earth. But that is information that comes from research which does tend to require more effort than the effortless practice of "non-belief." If anything, the mere fact that so much effort went in to PoE as a product is an argument against the fundamental principles behind Atheism.

 

In the immortal words Gromnir: "HA! Good Fun!

 

Of course souls pre-date Christianity, and all extant religions also. That doesn't contradict what I said. Once again, religion has no monopoly on the word "soul".

 

As for the effort of research, I've read the bible several times (being raised as a Catholic) as well as read commentaries on it. I've also read the Quran through once and the Bhagavad Gita: the latter is far more compelling than any Abrahamic holy book. I've read several apocryphal books of the bible too, which are really interesting. I've also read a fair amount of philosophy regarding religion and epistemology. I continue to read and research religion in general and specific religions in particular because they fascinate me. I can assure you that my atheism is not a product of laziness.

[house2fly]

To be fair to Brimsurfer. The lead designer is an atheist with an interest in religion (specifically medieval christianity). I'm sure the writing staff included both believers and sceptics.

 

But I don't think the story is cliché, or biased towards atheism. Full disclosure I'm also an atheist.

I was actually surprised to find out "the gods are false" was just one of several story beats that got pitched; I'd have bet big bucks that that was one of the first things Sawyer came up with when designing this setting.

 

 

the game specific notes that people believed in gods before the fake gods were created.  nothing 'bout created gods sudden invalidated the potential for a higher power even if a particular dead culture were convinced that no genuine gods actual existed.  

 

and again, an "actual deity" is antithetical to questions o' faith.  if an actual deity were offered in poe, you would once again remove faith as a thematic option.  are you missing the point?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It also specifically says that even those gods very false.........

 

Why would I remove faith as a thematic option, if an actual deity were offered in the game? Faith is the basis of all religions of the world specially the 3 dominant Abrahamic religeons .... 

 

Faith is something you can only have if you don't have proof that God is real.  Nobody has faith in things that definitely exist, like gravity or evolution.

[Rosveen]

Nobody has faith in things that definitely exist, like gravity or evolution.

Considering the nature of this thread, you're stepping on thin ice.

[Zenbane]

 

The concept of a soul not only spans multiple cultures and religions, but also predates the time that Christ walked the earth. But that is information that comes from research which does tend to require more effort than the effortless practice of "non-belief." If anything, the mere fact that so much effort went in to PoE as a product is an argument against the fundamental principles behind Atheism.

 

In the immortal words Gromnir: "HA! Good Fun!

 

Of course souls pre-date Christianity, and all extant religions also. That doesn't contradict what I said. Once again, religion has no monopoly on the word "soul".

 

As for the effort of research, I've read the bible several times (being raised as a Catholic) as well as read commentaries on it. I've also read the Quran through once and the Bhagavad Gita: the latter is far more compelling than any Abrahamic holy book. I've read several apocryphal books of the bible too, which are really interesting. I've also read a fair amount of philosophy regarding religion and epistemology. I continue to read and research religion in general and specific religions in particular because they fascinate me. I can assure you that my atheism is not a product of laziness.

 

I've read and studied lots too. Analyzed the Gospels in college as well as a study of the Historical Jesus vs the Mythical Jesus. The point of this particular exchange is that you specifically denied that a lack of belief in a soul is not tied to Atheism; and that is a fallacy.

 

[Vorad]

The gods in poe are "real"(in this at least I have to agree with Thaos - although he still deserves to die ). I wouldn't say the storyline is biased towards atheism but maybe some aspects could have done better since all the Engwithian advanced civ creating their own gods mumbojumbo seems so close to the Eldar in wh40K and I'm sure the rest of you could think of few more parallelisms with other titles/rpg/fantasy.

 

In the context of a 'fantasy world' a god has tremendous power over the living irregardless of how it got created. Similarities of this concept can be found on "forgotten realms" for instance. These beings are everything a god can be unless you specifically add as a hard constrain the "pre existence", but even in that one could argue that these being existed, maybe not in the exact form but at least scattered into a vast number of souls, so they existed in a more primitive way until something happened and they became whole. (reminds me of simpler organisms evolving into more complex).

 

In the end it's a matter of personal beliefs but I don't really think the message of the story is so much on atheism rather than agnosticism. Personally I don't find anything wrong with that, my only concern is that perhaps there could be some room about more prototype ideas...

[Gromnir]

To be fair to Brimsurfer. The lead designer is an atheist with an interest in religion (specifically medieval christianity). I'm sure the writing staff included both believers and sceptics.

 

But I don't think the story is cliché, or biased towards atheism. Full disclosure I'm also an atheist.

making faith a viable thematic option, by necessity, requires that atheism would be reasonable. atheism with manifest gods is just... stoopid. even so, guessing at how one developer's personal notions o' faith impacted the game is bass ackwards reasoning. is nothing specific in the game that would lead one to see an atheists' agenda... with one possible exception.  again, compared to the typical crpg with manifest interloper deities, poe is far more conscientious o' questions o' faith.

 

...

 

am disliking to give brim actual ammunition, 'cause he/she is typical so bass ackwards as to preclude rational discussion, however, while his/her stated concerns and arguments is flawed, we will note that the iconic martyr o' poe is an atheist.  the traditional heroic figure o' the martyr tale is the person who suffers for their Religious faith.  christian religions, in particular, venerate their martyrs... which should come as no surprise given christianity's most enduring religious symbol is the crucifix.  that being said, western values, not just christian values, results in an almost reflexive veneration o' those who suffer for their beliefs... and not just religious beliefs.  

 

so the heroic martyr o' poe is an atheist.  am not seeing some kinda perpetuation o' an atheist agenda, but while brim observations is ridiculous, we will note that it is significant that in a game wherein various questions o' faith (religious and otherwise) is so fundamental, the iconic heroic martyr were an atheist. 

 

regardless, unlike the vast majority o' crpgs in which Religious faith is non existent, or a tertiary concern at best, poe manages to make faith relevant.  coulda' made the heroic martyr a believer in one o' the old gods?  sure.  would that have changed the poe narrative in a significant way?  perhaps... depending on how the developers addressed.  lack o' detritus from old faiths appeals to Gromnir, but we could see going a different direction. in any event, poe made religious faith relevant in a game with manifest deities.  is an impressive and clever feat that can't be done w/o the possibility o' atheism.  is axiomatic. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 7, 2016 by Gromnir

[Vorad]

 

 

The concept of a soul not only spans multiple cultures and religions, but also predates the time that Christ walked the earth. But that is information that comes from research which does tend to require more effort than the effortless practice of "non-belief." If anything, the mere fact that so much effort went in to PoE as a product is an argument against the fundamental principles behind Atheism.

 

In the immortal words Gromnir: "HA! Good Fun!

 

Of course souls pre-date Christianity, and all extant religions also. That doesn't contradict what I said. Once again, religion has no monopoly on the word "soul".

 

As for the effort of research, I've read the bible several times (being raised as a Catholic) as well as read commentaries on it. I've also read the Quran through once and the Bhagavad Gita: the latter is far more compelling than any Abrahamic holy book. I've read several apocryphal books of the bible too, which are really interesting. I've also read a fair amount of philosophy regarding religion and epistemology. I continue to read and research religion in general and specific religions in particular because they fascinate me. I can assure you that my atheism is not a product of laziness.

 

I've read and studied lots too. Analyzed the Gospels in college as well as a study of the Historical Jesus vs the Mythical Jesus. The point of this particular exchange is that you specifically denied that a lack of belief in a soul is not tied to Atheism; and that is a fallacy.

 

Not necessarily. An "atheist - greek: άθεος: a-theos". Theos literally translates as god(I suspect the writers named a certain character in purpose since it sounds the same although I found it too cheesy) and with the negating "alpha" in front it means without god. Someone can be without a god but he might still believe that the soul itself preexisted without the need of a "higher intelligent omniscient being" baby-sitting it.

 

In the end these are personal matters, that everyone understands in his own way. But I wouldn't really find it contradictory for someone being both an atheist and yet believing in the existence of the soul. For the terminology's sake however atheism by it's pure grammatical meaning it just means/translates in English as "without god".

Edited March 7, 2016 by Vorad

[butterfly]

 

To be fair to Brimsurfer. The lead designer is an atheist with an interest in religion (specifically medieval christianity). I'm sure the writing staff included both believers and sceptics.

 

But I don't think the story is cliché, or biased towards atheism. Full disclosure I'm also an atheist.

 

I was actually surprised to find out "the gods are false" was just one of several story beats that got pitched; I'd have bet big bucks that that was one of the first things Sawyer came up with when designing this setting.

 

In the recent Fenstermaker interview. He states that the Gods concept was added in the last draft of the story, and since he was mostly writing that I'm assuming it was his idea. Altough one can't be certain.

[JerekKruger]

I've read and studied lots too. Analyzed the Gospels in college as well as a study of the Historical Jesus vs the Mythical Jesus. The point of this particular exchange is that you specifically denied that a lack of belief in a soul is not tied to Atheism; and that is a fallacy.

 

If it's a fallacy demonstrate it. Merely saying "X is a fallacy" does not make X a fallacy.

[Zenbane]

I did demonstrate it, by drawing a correlation between the concept of a God and it's connection to the concept of a soul. All you did was draw away from it by discussing Christianity as a monopoly religion. I countered your red herring by pointing out that the concept of God's and soul's extends beyond and before Christianity. And now you're asking me to prove it all over again? lol

 

I challenge you to prove your claim as well. Merely stating that lack of belief in a soul has nothing to do with Atheism doesn't make it so. Prove it.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Zenbane

[JerekKruger]

I did demonstrate it, by drawing a correlation between the concept of a God and it's connection to the concept of a soul. 

 

You actually didn't make that argument, or at least not in response to my post. Even if you had, it wouldn't have mattered since it's a terrible argument. First, unless you very much blur the lines of what a god is, this correlation doesn't exist. Secondly, even if it did, what would that matter. If someone defines soul to be some immaterial essence of a being then isn't contingent on a God or gods. The only way it becomes so is when you start to claim that that isn't the definition of a soul, and that's exactly where you're claiming ownership of the word (whether it be for Christianity or religion in general).

 

 

 

I challenge you to prove your claim as well. Merely stating that lack of belief in a soul has nothing to do with Atheism doesn't make it so. Prove it.

 

There's no reason to assume that the two should be linked at all, hence the burden of proof lies on the party claiming that they are (you here). You haven't discharged that burden hence I have nothing to prove.

 

EDIT: by the way, to anyone not familiar with this move, what Zenbane did here is called burden shifting. He realised his argument, or lack thereof, wasn't having the desired effect so decided to go with the "yeah well you prove the opposite" tactic. It's kinda cute when you know to look out for it

Edited March 7, 2016 by JerekKruger