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Okay, but seriously now, why isn't Bash a talent?


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Having it as a magic item property is silly.

 

Discuss.

 

Since you are right and there is no need to discuss, I think you made this topic just to feel good about yourself. :shifty:

 

But seriously, even though its true that bash being a magical property is silly, I think they set up the programming early in a way that made it difficult to implement bash different from what we have now. One problem is to be able to decide whether to use bash or not depending on the situation.

 

I think the only proper way to do it in a sequel is to introduce item modals as boffmoffet suggested, where shield bash can be turned on/off depending on situation, and the availability of the modal should be a general talent for everyone to pick. If it is enabled, it should be treated as a weapon for two weapon fighting.

With the same thinking, it would be nice if there were bastard swords with a one-hand / two-handed modal, although I see a lot more technical issues with equipment slots for this kind of thing.

 

Furthermore, I think in a sequel we should be able to wear two shields simultaneously. A defender using his shieldbash as main weapon is a cool concept. Also, two-handed tower shields should be a thing. I'm not even kidding, I think there is a lot of cool conceptual unexplored stuff with shields in RPGs. 

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Having it as a magic item property is silly.

 

Discuss.

 

Since you are right and there is no need to discuss, I think you made this topic just to feel good about yourself. :shifty:

 

But seriously, even though its true that bash being a magical property is silly, I think they set up the programming early in a way that made it difficult to implement bash different from what we have now. One problem is to be able to decide whether to use bash or not depending on the situation.

 

I think the only proper way to do it in a sequel is to introduce item modals as boffmoffet suggested, where shield bash can be turned on/off depending on situation, and the availability of the modal should be a general talent for everyone to pick. If it is enabled, it should be treated as a weapon for two weapon fighting.

With the same thinking, it would be nice if there were bastard swords with a one-hand / two-handed modal, although I see a lot more technical issues with equipment slots for this kind of thing.

 

Furthermore, I think in a sequel we should be able to wear two shields simultaneously. A defender using his shieldbash as main weapon is a cool concept. Also, two-handed tower shields should be a thing. I'm not even kidding, I think there is a lot of cool conceptual unexplored stuff with shields in RPGs. 

 

 

Well it wouldn't have to be modal. You could just make it a plain talent and if you don't want to bash you don't take the talent. If I'm designing a shield bashing character I'd want them to shield bash all the time. I actually think that's true of most of the talent modals though, if I take savage attack or penetrating shot those get left on permanently.

 

The other option would be to make bash a per encounter ability with additional effects of some kind.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Well it wouldn't have to be modal. You could just make it a plain talent and if you don't want to bash you don't take the talent. If I'm designing a shield bashing character I'd want them to shield bash all the time. I actually think that's true of most of the talent modals though, if I take savage attack or penetrating shot those get left on permanently.

 

The other option would be to make bash a per encounter ability with additional effects of some kind.

 

At first, I was thinking like you, but then I thought of the situation were your mainhand weapon is much stronger than the shield bash. Instead of having a strong and a weak attack alternate, you'd probably want to disable the shield bash to use your main weapon all the time while keeping the shield equipped for its defensive bonus.

 

On a side note, on my fist-only run, I often disable vulnerable attack against enemies with too high DR (like those damn constructs) since it sometimes turns out that even with the DR reduction, I still can't break through DR and only do minimal damage either way, making vulnerable attack strictly inferior to normal attacks.

 

Personally, I wouldn't like bash as a per encounter ability, since the concept of bashing continously seems more fun. If given the choice, I would treat shields as weapons with defensive buffs whose attacks have to be enabled by a talent. Two handed shields would be icing of the cake.

 

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Why does it not work with two weapon style?

 

Because it's bugged. The good news is QA wrote up a bug report for it, so hopefully it will be fixed in an upcoming patch.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

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Well it wouldn't have to be modal. You could just make it a plain talent and if you don't want to bash you don't take the talent. If I'm designing a shield bashing character I'd want them to shield bash all the time. I actually think that's true of most of the talent modals though, if I take savage attack or penetrating shot those get left on permanently.

 

The other option would be to make bash a per encounter ability with additional effects of some kind.

 

At first, I was thinking like you, but then I thought of the situation were your mainhand weapon is much stronger than the shield bash. Instead of having a strong and a weak attack alternate, you'd probably want to disable the shield bash to use your main weapon all the time while keeping the shield equipped for its defensive bonus.

 

On a side note, on my fist-only run, I often disable vulnerable attack against enemies with too high DR (like those damn constructs) since it sometimes turns out that even with the DR reduction, I still can't break through DR and only do minimal damage either way, making vulnerable attack strictly inferior to normal attacks.

 

Personally, I wouldn't like bash as a per encounter ability, since the concept of bashing continously seems more fun. If given the choice, I would treat shields as weapons with defensive buffs whose attacks have to be enabled by a talent. Two handed shields would be icing of the cake.

 

 

That's fair. In the situation you described I'd just put the main hand weapon a character without bash though.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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I'd support Bash as a specific fighter talent that could be enhanced by specific shields' enchantments.

 

My view is that it should be a low damage high interrupt attack and that it should not be considered a two-weapon style action.

 

 

PoE have done some nice things to include variety to how shields can be used and are specced (not just small-medium-large) and it would be nice to see this developed further in PoE2.

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PoE have done some nice things to include variety to how shields can be used and are specced (not just small-medium-large) and it would be nice to see this developed further in PoE2.

In a mechanical sense, maybe. Really, though, having people use bucklers and then not use them for punching is more than my little medieval combat nerd brain can handle.

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Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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PoE have done some nice things to include variety to how shields can be used and are specced (not just small-medium-large) and it would be nice to see this developed further in PoE2.

In a mechanical sense, maybe. Really, though, having people use bucklers and then not use them for punching is more than my little medieval combat nerd brain can handle.

I don't think Bash should be a universal function of shields.

 

I'd be OK with it being a general offensive talent with some classes having some kind of signature shield talent (fighter, barb, rogue?).

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Having it as a magic item property is silly.

 

Discuss.

 

Its not a magical property its just that even in reality you can't bash with many shields while keeping your fighting stance. their make just doesn't allow it (forget about what you see in hollywood movies), some shields are suitable for bashing though and that's why some shields in the game allow bashing...... and it takes considerable might on one's part to be able to bash......a warrior with less than 16 or 17 might shouldn't be able to bash........and bashing actually lowers your defence and leaves your flank open, a tank warrior may find it almost impossible to bash while taking on multiple enemies, unless an optimal opportunity present itself but against a single foe it may be viable and can knock the enemy out for few secs, and it is next to impossible to do it repeatedly.......

Edited by Brimsurfer
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Also why does it lower your DPS? Why does it not work with two weapon style? Why does it do such crappy base damage?

Chance and effectiveness of bashing should be incorporated in Sword and Shield Style and should partly depend on warrior Might score.......

 

Two Weapon Style has nothing to do with shields..........

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Its not a magical property its just that even in reality you can't bash with many shields while keeping your fighting stance. their make just doesn't allow it (forget about what you see in hollywood movies), some shields are suitable for bashing though and that's why some shields in the game allow bashing......

So since it is not magic, you are suggesting that being able to bash with a door but not with a buckler in PoE is inspired by real life...?

 

 

But categorizing shields actually isn't a bad idea. Have a class of shields dedicated for bashing and just treat them as weapons with a bonus to deflection, like hatchets. Other shields are purely for defense. All problems solved, you can now dual wield shields if you take at least one bashing one or you can also dual bash. For the two handed towershield, just disable the weapon slot on equip to the offhand and forgo the attack animation.

I'd be happy.

 

100 points to the person that hacks PoE and replaces the hatchet animations by shields with the bash animation (and changes the damage to crush).

Edited by Doppelschwert
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Its not a magical property its just that even in reality you can't bash with many shields while keeping your fighting stance. their make just doesn't allow it (forget about what you see in hollywood movies), some shields are suitable for bashing though and that's why some shields in the game allow bashing......

So since it is not magic, you are suggesting that being able to bash with a door but not with a buckler in PoE is inspired by real life...?

 

 

But categorizing shields actually isn't a bad idea. Have a class of shields dedicated for bashing and just treat them as weapons with a bonus to deflection, like hatchets. Other shields are purely for defense. All problems solved, you can now dual wield shields if you take at least one bashing one or you can also dual bash. For the two handed towershield, just disable the weapon slot on equip to the offhand and forgo the attack animation.

I'd be happy.

 

100 points to the person that hacks PoE and replaces the hatchet animations by shields with the bash animation (and changes the damage to crush).

 

 

 

I am not taking the game's side on this, i just said what I knew, I agree with you that its silly that you can't bash with a buckler but you bash with a door, its stupid.

 

Also, I believe, bash mechanics would work better, if Sword and Shield Style contributed towards its effectiveness..........

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My understanding is that Roman Legionaries were all taught the aggressive use of a shield as part of their basic training and they were all habituated to its weight by constant practice. This may have meant that they had unusually well developed left shoulder/arm muscles but not that they had high Might in PoE terms.

 

I see no need to REQUIRE high Might in order to be able to Bash, you just need a suitable shield and training (= Talent). High Might makes Bashing better.

 

For clarity I suggest a 2 handed shield should be referred to as a pavise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavise

I can't think of anywhere one might be useful in PoE, your opponents are just too mobile.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparabara (BTW woven reed is amazingly tough and light, contrary to what it suggests in this article.)

 

I don't think *dual wielding* shields is worth the development time, it might look cool in a movie but zero/low damage tanks have no place in PoE (thank goodness),

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Having it as a magic item property is silly.

 

Discuss.

 

Its not a magical property

 

 

It's a property that only appears on a few, particular shields found in a few, particular places. In game terms, that borders on the definition of magic item.

 

its just that even in reality you can't bash with many shields while keeping your fighting stance.

This is true of some larger shields, but is generally false due to things referred to as, "strength training," and, "transition stances." It is 100% false when it comes to the buckler, which was an excellent complement to the rapier in part because it could be used as an effective weapon at close ranges where the rapier became cumbersome. I've heard people swear by sword-and-dagger or case-of-rapiers as superior, but it's hard to get past the mix of grappling, striking, and parrying opportunities that a buckler presents.

 

Of course, this doesn't matter, because PoE makes no attempt to be totally grounded in reality. If it were, given the technology of the time, everyone would be wearing plate with rapiers, polearms and longswords, and large shields would be entirely out of fashion. This game is good at looking like it's in keeping with RL technological history, but it's not, nor does it try to be.

 

a warrior with less than 16 or 17 might shouldn't be able to bash

Setting aside the fact that Might is not muscle mass, can you explain why your choice of numbers isn't totally arbitrary?

 

My understanding is that Roman Legionaries were all taught the aggressive use of a shield as part of their basic training and they were all habituated to its weight by constant practice. This may have meant that they had unusually well developed left shoulder/arm muscles but not that they had high Might in PoE terms.

 

I see no need to REQUIRE high Might in order to be able to Bash, you just need a suitable shield and training (= Talent). High Might makes Bashing better.

QFT.

 

For clarity I suggest a 2 handed shield should be referred to as a pavise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavise

I can't think of anywhere one might be useful in PoE, your opponents are just too mobile.

Yeah, the pavise doesn't really fit with PoE's adventure-y aesthetic, being mostly for large-scale formation combat, not the light skirmishing that dominates the game.

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I don't think *dual wielding* shields is worth the development time, it might look cool in a movie but zero/low damage tanks have no place in PoE (thank goodness),

 

If you categorize bash shields as a class of weapons (which they more or less are in PoE), then I don't see how the development time should be out of proportions. The animation is already there, it is just a matter of making the game more modular compared to the workaround we have with bash now. You can keep shields as they are (without bash available), because this new weapon class can be equipped in both hands now since it is a weapon. You can still have a bash shield in your off hand, you can play left handed people, you can dual wield shields. Everyone is happy, no?

And seriously, if a class like wizard can get the most of development time for spells a single player won't use for the majority of a playthrough, I think it's more than fair to set some time aside for some exotic martial options and equipment, especially if it means to make the rules more intuitive in this case. Every expansion introduced new spells, but new weapon classes were never added (whips, scythes anyone?).

 

 

For clarity I suggest a 2 handed shield should be referred to as a pavise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavise

I can't think of anywhere one might be useful in PoE, your opponents are just too mobile.

Yeah, the pavise doesn't really fit with PoE's adventure-y aesthetic, being mostly for large-scale formation combat, not the light skirmishing that dominates the game.

 

The pasive does not need to be the ultimate shield for all situations, but it certainly could have some uses. Give all cone AoE attacks a new typing called 'Cone' and give the pasive a massive boost against cone damage, but make it also slow your movement speed.

Straightforward example:

Use against dragons. Have your support unit hide behind the pasive, don't get burned, cast a lot of buffs. You're too busy to attack with your weapon anyway, so whats the matter with having both hands occupied?

 

In a game where I can slap an enemy away with my magic book, what is so wrong about using an actual item from reality?

Edited by Doppelschwert
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a warrior with less than 16 or 17 might shouldn't be able to bash

Setting aside the fact that Might is not muscle mass, can you explain why your choice of numbers isn't totally arbitrary?

  

 

 

 

 

I said Might only because it appears to be the closest stat to strength attribute, however it could be any number that would signify as an indicator of wielder's strength. I always though of Might as Physical Strength in case of physical damage dealers and Mental Strength in case of magic or divine damage dealers......but that's just my way of thinking...............what do you suggest?

 

Would you rather have Constitution govern or contribute towards Bashing?

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a warrior with less than 16 or 17 might shouldn't be able to bash

Setting aside the fact that Might is not muscle mass, can you explain why your choice of numbers isn't totally arbitrary?

  

 

 

 

 

I said Might only because it appears to be the closest stat to strength attribute, however it could be any number that would signify as an indicator of wielder's strength. I always though of Might as Physical Strength in case of physical damage dealers and Mental Strength in case of magic or divine damage dealers......but that's just my way of thinking...............what do you suggest?

 

Would you rather have Constitution govern or contribute towards Bashing?

What is required is TRAINING and HABITUATION, in PoE terms that is a Talent.

No need for any other kind of physical qualifier to use Bash :)

 

Might contributes to all damage, so yes it makes Bash better too, but it's not a requirement to use Bash (just as armour auto-adjusts to body size we can assume shields do something similar).

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a warrior with less than 16 or 17 might shouldn't be able to bash

Setting aside the fact that Might is not muscle mass, can you explain why your choice of numbers isn't totally arbitrary?

  

 

 

 

 

I said Might only because it appears to be the closest stat to strength attribute, however it could be any number that would signify as an indicator of wielder's strength. I always though of Might as Physical Strength in case of physical damage dealers and Mental Strength in case of magic or divine damage dealers......but that's just my way of thinking...............what do you suggest?

 

Would you rather have Constitution govern or contribute towards Bashing?

What is required is TRAINING and HABITUATION, in PoE terms that is a Talent.

No need for any other kind of physical qualifier to use Bash :)

 

Might contributes to all damage, so yes it makes Bash better too, but it's not a requirement to use Bash (just as armour auto-adjusts to body size we can assume shields do something similar).

 

 

Just doesn't seem right that a character with less than 10 might bashing everything, everywhere......

 

This is what the game and official wiki itself says about Might;

 

'A character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic'

 

So I guess Might is the right attribute to decide if a character is strong enough to bash effectively and consistently with a shield...........

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