Quality of the new class skills

[JerekKruger]

What difficulty are you playing on theBalthazar?

[theBalthazar]

Path of the Damned, obviously. The only interresting difficulty. The others is not fun, too easy.

 

And for info, for me, at the start/mid game :

 

Top tiers :

 

1 - Druid (interesting from beginning to end)

2 - Priest (idem)

3 - Ranger (The pet is an amazing free tank... at beginning. After, this is less important)

 

Middle :

 

4 - Barbarian (With carnage... The base talent produce a good DPS)

5 - Wizard

6 - Cipher

 

Bad :

 

7 - Rogue

8 - Paladin

9 - Fighter

10 - Monk

11 - Chanter (Before level 9, its an horrible class. There are scrolls, but others class can use too the scrolls...)

 

-----------------

 

With the level, Barbarian become more and more useless. The chanter become great only with 25 % fire + the dragon trash. The chanter takes too long to act, even with the recent change. He has no interesting power before level 9. Who has already seen the latest invocations? Nobody. The combat is finish, seven years ago : p

 

The wizard have too a same problem. A slow start. But at full potential, level 9+, its the best DPS.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Teioh_White]

Well, you're comparing Barb to casters there to take away from what it can do. I'm sure we'll all agree (and I mentioned) the casters are on another level from the rest, and have been overpowered from launch. And now that the games finished, it looks to remain that way. (Which they sorta have to be, based on the system mechanics). All the classes look bad next to the casters.

 

Outside those though, Barb holds it's own for reasons mentioned plenty of times in many threads on folks who for some reason don't understand Barbs. Which is weird, as they only have one ability of worth, Carnage. Which also goes into why it's not really useful to say '13+15 abilites are trash, therefore bad class'. That's not how it works. Other talents being bad doesn't take away Carnage. Sure, it'd be nice if Barb had gotten even one other 'game changer' in its list, but Carnage itself is so strong it still carves a solid niche for Barb by itself, even with all the cheese removed from it.

[Braven]

If "damage" means burst damage, sure casters are the best for groups and a glass cannon melee built for max attack speed vs single targets. But the fact is, "burst damage" does not matter if your character cannot die due to massive health, defenses, and endurance regeneration, or ability to stun-lock everything without limits. A damage dealing Mage can die due to a simple mistake. A properly built martial can solo most encounters with no risk of dying and no per/rest or consumables.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Braven

[theBalthazar]

Quote me a barbarian talent that can make the difference ?

 

Ok, there is the duo, Threatening Presence + Brute force...

 

But that's just a litle gain in accuracy (and not on all case...)

 

Frenzy is good, but +4 in force is "just" +12% of damage. Its not a revolution. Only the +33 % speed its a real bonus. Meanwhile, with a "short-time power" (transformation) : druid deal a large amount of damage (more than a barbarian). So the frenzy is ridiculous : p

 

Heart of the fury can make a little difference but 1/rest, when a wizard laughing with 4/rest. Four "frost cone" (i dont remember the name : p) for example. With the boost speed of +50 % (Deleterious)

 

If "damage" means burst damage, sure casters are the best for groups and a glass cannon melee built for max attack speed vs single targets. But the fact is, "burst damage" does not matter if your character cannot die due to massive health, defenses, and endurance regeneration, or ability to stun-lock everything without limits. A damage dealing Mage can die due to a simple mistake. A properly built martial can solo on POTD and auto-attack most encounters with no risk for dying. 

 

 

Yes, I like play nip and tuck. But when you master C.C., my two priest and wizard take no damage.

 

I prefer the team-play. The TCS is interresting, but Its not the... same pleasure. There is no congruence of the team. If I want to play solo, I return to Neverwinter Nights, you know ? : p

 

The team-play is THE thing the more brilliant in this game. Reminiscence of the "excellentissime" BG and other Icewind Dale.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Teioh_White]

Err...Carnage. That's my point. Barb has Carnage, and a ton of jank for the rest of their skills. Everyother ability being jank doesn't have any bearing on how good Carnage is. But that's fine, Carnage alone makes the Barb just as good as the rest of the non-casters. It's does silly things, even after they removed the cray cray parts of it.

[DreamWayfarer]

@theBalthazar:

 

Aparently, you rest after every battle. If you try to keep going for as long as it is possible, you will see that your usual tatics don't work so well and that martial classes are able to contribute on a level comparable to the casters, even if the later are still top-tier.

Edited March 5, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[theBalthazar]

You are right. Totally right. But what happens then?

 

We have the feeling to invest "meanly" with the barbarian. It's really the impression it gives.

 

It remains on carnage. The others talents are small bonus really insignificant.

 

Meanwhile, in the others classes... Rogues, Ranger... They are better talents. (Rogues its insane in comparison)

 

It is therefore quite logical that the barbarian is bad at the end, compared to others classes.

 

 

Aparently, you rest after every battle. If you try to keep going for as long as it is possible, you will see that your usual tatics don't work so well and that martial classes are able to contribute on a level comparable to the casters, even if the later are still top-tier. 

 

 

Not at all. I rest ... hum all 4-5 fights on average.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[DreamWayfarer]

Not at all. I rest ... hum all 4-5 fights on average.

It is not the impression your posts gave me, but OK then. Caster are OP, that just means we need to compare barbs with other martial classes or with "partial" casters instead.

[theBalthazar]

Enemies fall very quickly with C.C.

 

One power of different level is enough.

 

Ghost + Expose vulnerabilities + Fire ball = 3 power use only, and its a purge.

 

if the threat is more important : Alacrity + Miasma + paralyse + frost cone.

[Teioh_White]

 

You are right. Totally right. But what happens then?

 

We have the feeling to invest "meanly" with the barbarian. It's really the impression it gives.

 

It remains on carnage. The others talents are small bonus really insignificant.

 

Meanwhile, in the others classes... Rogues, Ranger... They are better talents. (Rogues its insane in comparison)

 

It is therefore quite logical that the barbarian is bad at the end, compared to others classes.

 

 

 

I....have no clue this means. Or see any logic. Just because the skills Barb gets later are underwhelming, does not somehow retroactively take away from Carnage. Which is all a Barb really needs. (Would be nice to get more, of course, but OBS gave them more useless junk, and games down now). To illustrate, if someone had a 1/enc 'kill all enemies' skill, it wouldn't matter if every other skill they got was '1/rest -delete your hard drive'. That ability would still make the class the best in the game.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Teioh_White

[theBalthazar]

That ability would still make the class the best in the game.

 

 

Wizard can do much better than heart of the fury 1/encounter. It would not be enough. Idem for druid and priest. 

 

The barbarian would become the best DPS non-casters. that's good, this is the goal : Effective against large groups. Heart of the fury is less good on one person.

 

Wizard is my favorite class is this game. more difficult to handle than a druid, but a joy.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Teioh_White]

I....think you really misread that. I was attempting to show that the quality of later skills cannot take away from the quality of prior skills. (Might make them better, of course, but can't make them worse). To do this, I showed if a hypothetical class (not a barb ) had an ability that could kill everything for no cost, it wouldn't matter what other skills it got. No matter how horrible every other skill was, it wouldn't take away from that original skill in the slightest.

[theBalthazar]

I....think you really misread that. I was attempting to show that the quality of later skills cannot take away from the quality of prior skills. (Might make them better, of course, but can't make them worse). To do this, I showed if a hypothetical class (not a barb ) had an ability that could kill everything for no cost, it wouldn't matter what other skills it got. No matter how horrible every other skill was, it wouldn't take away from that original skill in the slightest.

 

 

Ok sorry, I have misread : p

 

Ok, I understand. But don't forget, heart of the fury is anyway proposed 1/encounter from a certain point of view (if it comes to rest). On paper it does not change much...

 

This power is important for the barbarian. He has nothing else to really stand out (I currently have a team with a main Barbarian for test 3.01 changes). I do not think it will become the best if passes "per encounter".

 

This is also the same for all talents "1/rest".

 

4/rest I understand. 3/ rest... I understand. 2/rest... its the limit.

 

But 1/rest its a bad idea no ?

 

Much to invest in another talent. This is much the case of rogue. With Sap (better and per encounter) and fearsome strike (per rest ?!) When you have the good withering Strike (per encounter).

 

That does not make any sense. The barbarian having so few to assert in endgame... That's a lot of amputated.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Arnegar]

Barbarians do incredible sustained damage. In most fights, if you could get the data from just the one fight, a barbarian will frequently have done more damage than anyone else. This kind of damage could be perceived as less valuable than focused damage that takes out important targets, but it lets you design the rest of the party to concentrate on that while a single barbarian can take care of the trash. Casters can only do that once or twice per rest, so unless you're willing to deal with PoE's extremely awful supply mechanic to an unnecessary degree, barbarians remain viable throughout the whole game.

[theBalthazar]

Yes but :

 

The number doesn't count damages of pet of ranger (I have test)

 

My druid have better personnal stat than a barbarian.

 

And a druid launch anothers powers before go in the fight. (Powers + Melee)

 

So no, the stats aren't a best argument.

 

A barbarian, should be the best, since he has nothing else to prove. (He can't do nothing else)

 

Priest : 9000 (Its over nine thousand ! : p . Its normal, with the buffs. He help the DPS to be better)

Ranger : 25000 without pet. (Pet, i think = 15 000-20 000~)

Barbarian 40000.

Druid : 45000.

 

So if he is third best, there is a problem. A ranger can help with -6 electrical DR.

 

A the end, I see a raise for the Ranger (I think since he have Stormcaller + twin arrow) So, in endgame, it is 50 000 ~ VS 40 000  for the barbarian.

 

The barbarian have nothing at high level.

 

So, fo me, its better to take a Ranger than a Barbarian, for pure DPS.

Edited March 9, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Ymarsakar]

Because wizards use combo spell chains, they need time to cast. Which is what the martial classes are for.

 

Chanters and monks and ciphers, are the hybrid classes, they use special resources which can be gained over time. Although the cipher was always weird, even though I've played with all versions of them from 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, because the cipher's focus gain is very very unstable due to enemy defenses and grazes/hits/crits.

 

That lack of stability probably bothered me more than anything else. Of course monks are also unstable, due to taking damage, but I can always unleash harmful AOEs that just touch the monk. I have to spend time debuffing enemies for the cipher or buffing it using priest. I prefer a much more stable gameplay, predictable almost, such as spell chain combos or chanter verse 5 spell invocations.

 

Barbarians, I rate as higher than rogues and fighters, because barbarians still have some good passive effects that activate even after the rest and /enc abilities expire. Rogues have very solid alpha strikes and initial hits, very useful for when I need to take out somebody in the backrow that I can't easily get to, and escape/coordinated positioning makes it very easy to change where people are at. Fighters can only maintain their recovery for x seconds, and they often run out of their /encounter abilities, but in return they do pretty good spike dps now with clear out and fray, with some solid sabre/shield combos as well. The fighter's prone on engagement attacks, can also be interesting, as it is a solid CC stop against people moving around him. But I am still not taking the nerfed Defender modal, especially since you can take the talent hold wall for +1 engagement and then use warhammer special for another +1 engagement.

 

I wonder why Balthazar uses the damage listed on the page for his characters. That is not exactly a good way to see the power levels of different classes in fights. Just as it was noted that rogues over damage certain enemies, and thus often are inefficient with the usage of their per rest and per encounter abilities, so the same is the case with classes full of op spell damages that do aoe. It even counts the damage people do to their friendlies. Yea, because wizards have fireball that crits your own people, it increases his damage stat, but carnage doesn't because it is foe only...

 

Comparing barbarian carnage and full on passive abilities that are forever on and applying damage, to things like wizard/druid combos using 3+ spells per fight, is beyond unbalanced and uneven.

 

People should try a party with no Vancian casters to see the real difference between hybrid and martial classes. Or to put it another way, use only 3-4 people, that are only Vancian casters in a party. That would be a much more legitimate test and playthrough, than going by damage numbers on that page.

 

What I suspect people are doing, is that they are using the advantage of martial classes, to make their vancian casters look good, whether intentionally or not. It's not a legitimate test.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Teioh_White]

Well, you can't really compare the Casters to the martial classes, as the casters just blow them away. Even with zero back tracking, just using supplies found in the wild, only using Inn's and buying supplies when you'd be at the Inn anyways, you still get so many casts I have to go nova on fights just to use all the resting that's freely available.

 

Where theB's wrong is thinking Barbs are horrible for some reason, when they're nice and balanced with all the other martial classes. Who by and large are fair compared to each other. I really just can't understand his inability to get this (or really, follow much of his posts in general.) They're still all below the Hybrid Cipher and Chanter though. Who are my two favorite classes, having interesting mechanics that work well, and just needed a bit of tuning. Reminds of Dimir from DotP 2014 as a great design and reasonable balance.

 

Ciphers core gameplay's always been very balanced to me, unlike the Casters who just don't work, but they've had multiple powers that are just too good/cheezy that make them a bit too powerful. They're in a much better place now than they were, but of course, I guess now we can just Mindweb for 200+ defense for the entire team, too.

 

Chanter's, for example, can pretty much keep a fight on perma lock down 13 seconds into a fight, which is a bit too good. And it's not like that's their only trick, they've got a lot of really broken stuff they can do. Maybe it's just the fact the devs didn't plan on folks spamming 2.66 level 1 chants to build up and use strong Invocations, expecting folks to use the higher level ones, and thus not get many Invocations.

[Ymarsakar]

 

Where theB's wrong is thinking Barbs are horrible for some reason, when they're nice and balanced with all the other martial classes. Who by and large are fair compared to each other. I really just can't understand his inability to get this (or really, follow much of his posts in general.) They're still all below the Hybrid Cipher and Chanter though. Who are my two favorite classes, having interesting mechanics that work well, and just needed a bit of tuning. Reminds of Dimir from DotP 2014 as a great design and reasonable balance.

 

 

What I surmise that Balthazar is doing is he is using melee front liners like the ranger pet and barbarians, to stall and soak up damage from the enemy hordes, which he then uses to chain cast priest/druid/wizard spell combos. 

 

That's what I did when I started POE, of course, back when there was no UI to show what the range of attacks and spells were. And wizards often had very low range spells, like 5-8m only, which they buffed up later.

 

The problem with ciphers was mostly that it took too long to get to the higher level abilities and most people just chain casted paralyze. The new immunities and what not, changed the balance of that, as well as the new focus requirements. Ciphers shared the same problem as chanters at higher levels, by the time they could use their most powerful abilities, the fight was just about over for middle enemies. Especially given the cipher's +40% melee/range damage auto attacks, almost like a permanent rogue sneak attack at +50% damage.

 

Giving the cipher better/different ways to gain focus, like retaliation or amplified thrust, made it more interesting to me. Changed the playstyle, since I usually like casting fight changing spells when I need them, not when I've done a lot of damage. Usually because if I did a lot of damage, that means the fight is too easy to need it. The antipathetic and echo beams were also fun, but difficult use at times. Would have worked better with a rogue, of course.

 

Back to the other topic, barbarians require a bit of preparation and micro. Which I don't see someone who is microing 2-3 vancian casters in a fight, usually pays attention to.

 

Most important is probably the AOE range of carnage, the way INT stacks with itself due to radius, and using reach weapons to hit in he middle of an enemy pack for more aoes. There are also edge cases where wizard aoes damages enemy hordes, but doesn't kill them. So if they were stacking blindsight and vulnerability together, the barbarian would have dealt the last blow, saving time, reducing damage, interrupting enemies, and also preventing the casters from having to use auto attacks or another spell to finish them off. Even though the casters did a large amount of damage with aoes, their spells were saved for later. Otherwise their spells would do even more "over" damage on 20% endurance enemies and trash mobs. In a party of only Vancian casters, edge cases like this will present themselves, and will no longer be hidden or covered up by hybrid/martial classes killing enemies that would have taken another spell cast.

 

After all, Itumaak does constant damage so long as he is not KOed, and barbarians with on hit weapons, will keep doing that. The Vancian caster limitation was always the number of spell casts they had. But there were ways to prevent them from having to use certain spells a lot due to the other classes contribution to tactics. In fact, a party of only vancian casters, might be more interesting to play, although hellish to micro. Because certain spells will be used more, and others less. The wizard's spot tanking abilities with essential phantom and dimensional shift, are especially fun to play around with. 

 

Most people do solo runs though. Less micro, longer fights, more in depth feel for classes. The wizard solo run person would gain a lot of experience with the limitations of those casts. The vancian casters have gotten better since 1.0, mostly because of the /encounter abilities and buffs to certain spell powers/ranges/UI changes.

 

Btw, that Dmir?

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[theBalthazar]

 

Where theB's wrong is thinking Barbs are horrible for some reason, when they're nice and balanced with all the other martial classes. 

 

 

 

Ranger is better.

 

Twin arrow + Stormcaller touch 2 shots x 2 victims.

Each victim (if not dead) = -6 DR.

 

and, there is a pet. ~100 damage.

 

In endgame, Barbarian is not balanced with the others physical DPS.

 

Ultimate Proof :

 

Talents of Barbarian level 9-15 (Official list) :

 

* Vengeful death : oh yeah, your character must die to do one normal attack ! Very useful ! : p

 

* Barbaric shout : The worst affliction ever. Terrified. I'm sure no one has ever taken this talent. 

 

* Heart of the fury : Great power, one of the best ! But only one by rest, it is psychologically hard to use. We want to keep it for the big battles. And inevitably, sometimes I forget to use it.

 

* Eye of the storm : Totally useless. the engagement is not central with the barbarian, unlike the rogue. the barbarian like it when there are a lot of people, he does not need a lack of engagement of the ennemies.

 

* Dragon leap : The only interest of this power is to fall on the wizards in the back. Apart from that : do the same damage of a normal attack. Useless.

 

* Barbaric retaliation : it must be attacked, AND, at melee (hyper restrictive). It is far from other damage classes per second. (Priest, ranger with twin arrow and pet etc.)

 

* Echoing shout : Unusable most of the time. We are afraid of bounced to his troops or simply, hit an ally.

 

----------------

 

So globaly, we understand why the barbarian is not as strong as the Ranger.

 

When you take a look to rogue's talent : +100 % damage with two afflictions. +20 hits in crits, raw damage etc etc.

 

Ranger : Twin arrow, vicious aim, a great pet.

 

Barbarian : ? Carnage... its all. At begining its awsome. from middle of the game : ...its ok. To theEnd... all the talents accumlated by the others classes make the differences.

Edited March 9, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Braven]

Cipher used to be fairly balanced (except for that AOE prone spell before it was heavily nerfed).  However, now I feel like they are more unbalanced than ever.  The way focus scales makes most of their powers worthless because they are simply not worth the cost for the benefit.  So now the only ones worth using are level 1/2 powers and the OP 80 focus ones (and detonate).  The rest are completely forgettable.  Sure you could charm or blind an enemy, but why not just kill them and gain focus in the process?

 

Even if the powers and costs were better balanced, it will always suffer from the problem that there is no reason to cast anything but the best power since they all draw from the same mana pool and there are no limits on how often you use a specific power.  With other casters, they are forced to use at least one spell from each spell level.  A cipher can just spam Amplified Thrust from level 3 to level 16 and just ignore all of the other spell levels completely and not bother with attacking with weapons at all, except maybe an opening gun shot.

 

One way to balance that problem is having only very situational powers, thus forcing you to change the spell for the occasion... but their best powers are optimal in every battle so there is no reason to ever switch tactics.  Why wouldn't you want massive bonuses to all defenses, massive single target damage, or massive focus generation (while also dealing tons of damage)?  As a result, they are pretty one-dimensional and not really very balanced at all, in my opinion.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Braven

[Teioh_White]

Cipher used to be fairly balanced (except for that AOE prone spell).  However, now I feel like they are more unbalanced than ever.  The way focus scales makes most of their powers worthless because they are simply not worth the cost for the benefit.  So now the only ones worth using are level 1/2 powers and the OP 80 focus ones (and detonate).  The rest are completely forgettable.  Sure you could charm or blind an enemy, but why not just kill them and gain focus in the process?

 

Even if the powers and costs were better balanced, it will always suffer from the problem that there is no reason to cast anything but the best power since they all draw from the same mana pool and there are no limits on how often you use a specific power.  With other casters, they are forced to use at least one spell from each spell level.  A cipher can just spam Amplified Thrust from level 3 to level 16 and just ignore all of the other spell levels completely; and even weapons, since they are no longer needed to actually generate focus and do less damage.

 

One way to balance that problem is having only very situational powers, thus forcing you to change the spell for the occasion... but their best powers are optimal in every battle so there is no reason to ever switch tactics.  Why wouldn't you want massive bonuses to all defenses, massive single target damage, or massive focus generation (while also dealing tons of damage)?  As a result, they are pretty one-dimensional and not really very balanced at all, in my opinion.

 

I agree with the Cipher issue of, 'they all draw from same source, so only use best'. I dunno if a system where each power tier had it's own bar that got filled up as you did damage, and once it was full, could cast a power from that tier. Something like that so it's not just 'spam lvl 1 charm/level 2 para' or 'lol mindweb'

[Raven Darkholme]

If by unbalanced you mean weak, then you are wrong.

Also some cipher powers got strengthened and are  lot of fun now, I use Silent Scream a lot for example and was awestruck today, when I saw I crit a dude for 95 dmg, he was also stunned for 20 secs and ofc that spell is AoE.

So your general conclusion that the powers are unbalanced is not entirely right, the last patch saw to that.

Most important for me is, almost every tier of cipher powers has at least 1 useful spell.

The only tier I never use is the 2nd highest (V I believe).

[theBalthazar]

I hate cipher. I want to use my powers immediatly.

 

The difference between defeat and victory is played in a few seconds.

 

The cipher does not allow that. Cipher is a bad class for me (personal opinion of course : p )

[Braven]

 

Cipher used to be fairly balanced (except for that AOE prone spell).  However, now I feel like they are more unbalanced than ever.  The way focus scales makes most of their powers worthless because they are simply not worth the cost for the benefit.  So now the only ones worth using are level 1/2 powers and the OP 80 focus ones (and detonate).  The rest are completely forgettable.  Sure you could charm or blind an enemy, but why not just kill them and gain focus in the process?

 

Even if the powers and costs were better balanced, it will always suffer from the problem that there is no reason to cast anything but the best power since they all draw from the same mana pool and there are no limits on how often you use a specific power.  With other casters, they are forced to use at least one spell from each spell level.  A cipher can just spam Amplified Thrust from level 3 to level 16 and just ignore all of the other spell levels completely; and even weapons, since they are no longer needed to actually generate focus and do less damage.

 

One way to balance that problem is having only very situational powers, thus forcing you to change the spell for the occasion... but their best powers are optimal in every battle so there is no reason to ever switch tactics.  Why wouldn't you want massive bonuses to all defenses, massive single target damage, or massive focus generation (while also dealing tons of damage)?  As a result, they are pretty one-dimensional and not really very balanced at all, in my opinion.

 

I agree with the Cipher issue of, 'they all draw from same source, so only use best'. I dunno if a system where each power tier had it's own bar that got filled up as you did damage, and once it was full, could cast a power from that tier. Something like that so it's not just 'spam lvl 1 charm/level 2 para' or 'lol mindweb'

 

 

A nice solution, that should also be pretty easy to implement, is to limit the number of times you cast a "specific" spell or power per encounter.  This could apply to all casters too, not just cipher.  You are only allowed to cast any given spell once.  That will force people to actually vary up their spells which would be more fun, and it would reduce the power level of casters.  No more unloading 6 fireballs in a row.  No more slicken, fireball, slicken, repeat.  No more endless amplified thrust.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Braven