PoE 3.0/WM2 combat pathfinding

[DKDArtagnan]

Is the combat pathfinding improved? I've lost countless trivial battles because my guys would go back and forth forever as they couldn't reach an enemy despite having a huge space to move through. 

It's due to the glitchy engagement rules that are otherwise a nice idea - they just don't work too well in practice. 

In the patch notes, it says AI will be smarter about this. Well, it sounds like it could be about this.

[Grenor]

I had this issue in 3.0 Beta. i don't expect it to be improved in the final.

[DKDArtagnan]

Oh well, I guess I'll refrain from trying this again then.

 

Thanks

[floyd ryan]

I find it still quite bugged and requires a lot cumbersome micro on higher difficulties. Imo the engagement mechanic is great, but it seems they never got the code for the pathfinding right. Given the time that passed, i don't think it will ever be fixed entirely. But it would be a great aid if the game would provide more UI feedback. For instance, it would be helpful to have clear visual representation of engagement zones (ideally with a toggle), also i would really like to see if the space between characters, and in game objects is wide enough for other characters to pass through. This could be implemented by highlighting all space where characters cannot pass.   

[DKDArtagnan]

Personally, I'd simply prefer the game was less rigid when blocking movement. Just a little flexibility would go a long way to make the whole thing more playable.

[Brimsurfer]

combat pathfinding sucks really bad.......i just started playing after several months and my frustration bar is filling up real quick due to due companions refusing to move the way I want them to move in the combat..........

 

this really need to be fixed.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'd say that 3.0 combat works, at least if you have slow mode on and do micromanage your companions. A rough estimate of mine is that 20% of the time, they do pick a weird patch to reach someone or a place to which I have directed them. The system also seems to be targeting my main character, sometimes suicidally so (disengagement penalties are ignored, and high damage companions in my party are ignored). I'm not sure why this is. Still, from the beta to this, it's a huge improvement.

 

Also, having played BG1 & 2 relatively recently, the pathfinding there isn't stellar by any standard, but combat is less centrifugal in character.

Edited February 23, 2016 by IndiraLightfoot

[floyd ryan]

It's not such a problem in BG because there is no engagement, and other party members make way on their own. I PoE it's sometimes a real pain to micro repositioning, because you first have to make way, which means moving other party members manually bach and forth, more so you cannot give all commands at once, but often in sequence, moving one party member after the other. In tight spaces this can suck big time.

[gkathellar]

I dunno, I never recall having the same kind of balls-out-crazy moments of my characters taking the long way around in BG that I've had in pillars.

 

Say what you will about X-Com operatives' seemingly total inability to go around environmental hazards - at least they can find the shortest path from point A to point B.

[Infinitron]

Baldur's Gate was notorious for the phenomenon where you'd give your entire party an order to go from one end of the map to another, only to have two party members somehow get stuck along the way, and another two inexplicably split off from the herd to take a longer path.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Infinitron

[archangel979]

It's not such a problem in BG because there is no engagement, and other party members make way on their own. I PoE it's sometimes a real pain to micro repositioning, because you first have to make way, which means moving other party members manually bach and forth, more so you cannot give all commands at once, but often in sequence, moving one party member after the other. In tight spaces this can suck big time.

Yes, and any micro movement cause enemy to do disengagement attack. Another reason to not play PoE without IEMod and turn off engagement system.

 

With pathfinding working well at least I could consider not using the mod but in current state no chance. PoE is a parts of bad designs that are even worse as a whole.

[Killyox]

Just because some people can't play with engagement it doesn't mean it has to be turned off. You just have to know when you can afford to take that Disengagement Attack.

 

Honestly I've built my chars in such a way that I usually don't care for DA at all.

 

Pathfinding thus far in 3.0 is a lot better it seems. Playable without major problems.

[Eisenheinrich]

Worst Pathfinding I ever experienced was in BG II ToB, the cursed Jail in Saradush. My god, what a pita.

[floyd ryan]

Just because some people can't play with engagement it doesn't mean it has to be turned off. You just have to know when you can afford to take that Disengagement Attack.

 

Honestly I've built my chars in such a way that I usually don't care for DA at all.

 

Pathfinding thus far in 3.0 is a lot better it seems. Playable without major problems.

Just to be clear, i really like the engagement system, just not the execution of the pathfinding. It's also not a question of skill, as you imply. I can do the micro, i just find it tedious and unnecessary.

[emeffkay]

Speaking from a less experienced PoV here as I'm only on my first playthrough (on hard) but I remember how much of a cluster**** the pathfinding in Baldur's Gate and IWD could be and while Pillars isn't 100% issue free, I find the slow mode to be immensely useful - that and remembering to toggle AI on/off when necessary. Not perfect solutions but they do tend to make the going a little easier. Doesn't remove the tedium of micro'ing each and every encounter.

 

That said, I love the engagement system. Again I'm on my first playthrough but it makes a world of difference when it comes to positioning my two ciphers for beam carnage.

[archangel979]

Just because some people can't play with engagement it doesn't mean it has to be turned off. You just have to know when you can afford to take that Disengagement Attack.

 

Honestly I've built my chars in such a way that I usually don't care for DA at all.

 

Pathfinding thus far in 3.0 is a lot better it seems. Playable without major problems.

Did you read anything here? It is not about liking it, it is about bad pathfinding forcing you to micro manage your troops and get extra disengagement attacks on them as a result. One solution is to have flawless pathfinding, another is to not have engagement system as it is now.

 

IE games had bad pathfinding but not a mechanic like engagement to punish you for trying to play the game with that pathfinding.

 

I am playing PST at the moment and pathfinding is terrible.

I micro manage it by telling all my 4 members to run behind the enemy. Then when 2 of them run behind I pause and tell them all to attack the target they now kind of surrounded. If I tried that in PoE the ones running behind would both get hit just for me trying to somehow work around bad pathfinding.

Edited February 23, 2016 by archangel979

[Tigranes]

Curious, do you guys play with AI and not control your characters? I've never really had a problem, but maybe that's why. Or maybe IE games just immunised me..

[Doppelschwert]

While I also like the idea of engagement, the execution suffers some time

 

Yesterday I had the situation where a melee character was sitting in the middle of 3 ogres, but not touching their circles.

The ogres were engaging my character, so movement would resulted in hits, but my character could not attack the ogres because they were out of range since the circles did not touch.

 

The AI just shut down (because it was told not to break engagement) and the ogres wailed on my idle character. When I notived this and moved my character nearer to one of the ogres for an attack, the character ate 3 disengagement attacks and died.

 

If engagement would only break once you move outside of an enemys weapons reach and characters didn't need to stand next to each other to attack, that would feel a lot smoother while keeping pretty much the same strategic effects disengagement is supposed to have in the first place.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Doppelschwert

[Luckmann]

While I also like the idea of engagement, the execution suffers some time

 

Yesterday I had the situation where a melee character was sitting in the middle of 3 ogres, but not touching their circles.

The ogres were engaging my character, so movement would resulted in hits, but my character could not attack the ogres because they were out of range since the circles did not touch.

 

The AI just shut down (because it was told not to break engagement) and the ogres wailed on my idle character. When I notived this and moved my character nearer to one of the ogres for an attack, the character ate 3 disengagement attacks and died.

 

If engagement would only break once you move outside of an enemys weapons reach and characters didn't need to stand next to each other to attack, that would feel a lot smoother while keeping pretty much the same strategic effects disengagement is supposed to have in the first place.

 

I've always liked the idea of engagement, but I've long since given up hope on there being any good implementation of it - I just don't think that it can be done. The idea is good, but I don't think it can be implemented in a good way.

 

That being said, the fact that you can't move "sideways" around an opponent is the source of enormous frustration when it comes to the pathing and crowding in the game. Do I suffer Engagement and squeeze in the third guy, or do I just let the two guys that are already there wail alone while the third guy just runs around like a headless chicken? Decisions, decisions.

 

That, and the complete absence of a Hold Position function. Enemy dies, you better pause real goddamn quick and then just spam X, because otherwise they'll run up, lock everyone else out, and get stuck in Engagement. Been around since Day 1.

[Doppelschwert]

I've always liked the idea of engagement, but I've long since given up hope on there being any good implementation of it - I just don't think that it can be done. The idea is good, but I don't think it can be implemented in a good way.

 

That being said, the fact that you can't move "sideways" around an opponent is the source of enormous frustration when it comes to the pathing and crowding in the game. Do I suffer Engagement and squeeze in the third guy, or do I just let the two guys that are already there wail alone while the third guy just runs around like a headless chicken? Decisions, decisions.

 

That, and the complete absence of a Hold Position function. Enemy dies, you better pause real goddamn quick and then just spam X, because otherwise they'll run up, lock everyone else out, and get stuck in Engagement. Been around since Day 1.

 

Yeah, I agree with you pretty much, especially the sideways walk and the hold position.

 

I also played the game since release, but this is the first time I'm running an all melee party without reach weapons and the first time potd as well. I think the amount of engagement problems scales way too well with the amount of melee units being present, it was much more bearable with half the party in the back and less monsters.

Not that I'm complaining about that, that style of play was my decision, but it makes the problems with engagement much more noticeable.

 

 

[Luckmann]

 

I've always liked the idea of engagement, but I've long since given up hope on there being any good implementation of it - I just don't think that it can be done. The idea is good, but I don't think it can be implemented in a good way.

 

That being said, the fact that you can't move "sideways" around an opponent is the source of enormous frustration when it comes to the pathing and crowding in the game. Do I suffer Engagement and squeeze in the third guy, or do I just let the two guys that are already there wail alone while the third guy just runs around like a headless chicken? Decisions, decisions.

 

That, and the complete absence of a Hold Position function. Enemy dies, you better pause real goddamn quick and then just spam X, because otherwise they'll run up, lock everyone else out, and get stuck in Engagement. Been around since Day 1.

 

Yeah, I agree with you pretty much, especially the sideways walk and the hold position.

 

I also played the game since release, but this is the first time I'm running an all melee party without reach weapons and the first time potd as well. I think the amount of engagement problems scales way too well with the amount of melee units being present, it was much more bearable with half the party in the back and less monsters.

Not that I'm complaining about that, that style of play was my decision, but it makes the problems with engagement much more noticeable.

 

 

As much as I've heard some argue otherwise, playing on PotD now, apart from a dodgy beginning, the old tactic of a super-heavy tank in the front and ~4 shooters at the back is still the best and most "abusable" tactic. This is doubly true if you've got a Priest. I currently don't, and it's really noticeable.

[DKDArtagnan]

I should probably point out that I don't think pathfinding in BG was ever good - far from it. Navigating complex dungeons was a nightmare.

 

I, however, am talking about combat AI AND pathfinding together.

 

In BG - pathfinding during combat was a non-issue because it was happening on one screen with few or no obstacles - and BG wasn't rigid with its collision boxes. Also, BG didn't have engagement rules because D&D doesn't have them.

 

Actually, I really like the engagement system in theory - it's just that it's not executed very well. Reason being a combination of bad combat AI, lack of scripting, sloppy collision detection and poor UI feedback.

 

I know that PoE is fully playable if you micromanage every fight and autopause constantly to compensate for bad AI decisions. Some people enjoy that kind of gameplay - but I don't. Also, if you focus almost entirely on long range combat - it's much less of an issue. But, really? It's a good thing that you feel forced towards a very specific tactical setup to avoid frustration?

 

I enjoy micromanaging when the fight is interesting and challenging - but I do NOT like endless trash encounters where I feel compelled towards tedium to avoid catastrophe.

 

To me, that's a bad design.

Edited February 24, 2016 by DKDArtagnan