Effective Barbarian DPS build (preferably 2H)

[foma_mgppu]

Hi all!

I am all green in PoE, and I want your advice.

I watched Sensuki's guides and came up with two Barbarians.

 

First: Death Godlike with stats: Might19, Con9, Dex10, Per18, Int13, Res9.

My reasons for those stats are: High perception for Accuracy, wich sucks with 2H, Int for AoE.

 

Second build is a coastal aumaua and is almost like Sensuki's: Might20, Con10, Dex10, Per10, Int18, Res10.

Minor differences are due to fact, that I did not want to lower stats below 10.

 

So, I have 2 questions.

First one is the obvious one: which build is better?

 

Second question is: Should I ever min\max? I mean is there obvious dump stats? In older Infinity Engine games you could min\max at your leisure. For example, there is no need under no circumstances in an Intellect score above 3 for a fighter (aside from role-playing reasons, but who cares? =) )

 

Please, give me some tips and hints. Thanks in advance.

[DreamWayfarer]

First one is the obvious one: which build is better?

 

 

I am no pro, but I think the first build has too little INT. Hitting more foes more spread apart is very useful, and many class abilities Barbs have are duration based. If you droped MIG a little to raise INT to 16, it could work better.

 

Second question is: Should I ever min\max? I mean is there obvious dump stats? In older Infinity Engine games you could min\max at your leisure. For example, there is no need under no circumstances in an Intellect score above 3 for a fighter (aside from role-playing reasons, but who cares? =) )

 

Minmaxing is mostly optional, if you are not soloing, tatics generaly matter more. Minmaxing on any difficulty bellow PoTD is not something usualy done.

 

In fact, Barbarians are possibly the least minmax-friendly class. I suppose you could drop RES to 3, if you use a reach weapon, but other than that I wouldn't put anything below 7 on a Barb.

Edited January 24, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Livegood118]

Your key stats are Might/Int/Per.

 

Per will be more valuable if you are playing on Path of the Damned because of higher defences on enemies relative to character progression.

 

So, if you're playing on Normal/Hard, take Sensuki's Stats.

 

If you're playing on POTD and you've got a couple of good CC chars in your party, personally, I would go with:

 

17

10

10

17

17

07

 

If you don't, bring resolve up to 10 and then 16 for stats.

[Boeroer]

It really depends what you want to do and which weapons or other items you want to use. For example: If you want to wield Tidefall and wear Shod-in-Fait boots I would always prefer max MIG and INT. You can even drop RES to 3 because you want to get a crit in order to trigger Consecrated Ground from the boots. If you want to use weapons with on-crit effects I would max PER and DEX. With weapons that have on-hit-effects I would max INT and DEX.

 

For pure DPS without any debuffing sideeffects or draining I would try to distribute stats like so: DEX>INT>MIG>PER>CON>RES. Then I would use two sabres, Shod-in-Faith and the Berserker's Belt, take Two Weapon Style, Bloodlust, Vulnerable Attack, Savage Attack, One Stands Alone, Frenzy, Greater Frenzy, Heart of Fury(! it's so good if you dual wield sabres and can reach 5 or more foes with it.) With Durgan Refinement you can reach 0 recovery with a robe, a monk's outfit or even a padded armor. If you can find Gauntlets of Swift Action you will even be able to wear a hide armor like Blaidh Golan (which is awesome) and have no recovary. Your DPS will be very, very high. But you will also go down quite often until you reach higher levels. Maybe Vengeful Defeat would also be nice. Add Shod-in-Faith for a lot more survivability.  

Edited January 24, 2016 by Boeroer

[PrimeJunta]

@Boeroer, great advice but the man said he's green. He has no idea what Tidefall, Shod-In-Faith, Berserker's Belt, or Durgan Refinement are. (Not to mention that it's really fun to discover those items, and others, by yourself.)

 

Want a two-hander damager barbarian?

 

Pumping INT is kind of a must, because of carnage. I wouldn't dump any stat below 8 or so to start with. You will want MIG, DEX, and PER in some order. RES and CON are less important. 

 

Re talents and abilities, Barbaric Yell is extremely useful early on, later on you might regret not picking Frenzy (although you can always respec, ugh). Savage Defiance is kind of a must, especially if you went with Frenzy. Then go with WF: Soldier (greatswords and pikes, there are excellent ones to be had) or WF: Adventurer (estocs baby, estocs!), Accurate Carnage, Vulnerable Attack (less important if you picked WF: Adventurer, because estocs already have DR reduction), and whatever else you think is cool.

 

Basically: pick any talent that enhances Carnage. Meaning, increases your Accuracy generally or specifically for Carnage, increases damage per hit, increases armor penetration, and so on. Apply the same philosphy to items: wear the lightest armour you can get away with (for maximum attack speed), and stack damage in any way you can. Your deflection will be kinda lousy whatever you do so you might as well neglect it and rely on your self-heals plus buffs from other party members instead.

 

And yeah, you will be keeling over a lot. Luckily you have that naff 6 x health/endurance multiplier.

[KDubya]

With 3.0 bringing injuries after being KO'd a Barbarian who ends up face down like a drunk chick on prom night every battle is going to require really frequent resting.

 

That to me lends itself to going with reach weapons such as the quarterstaff or pike; have the Barbarian wear a dress (robes) and hide in the second row and attack from safety. Go with Tall Grass and you can carnage prone the crowd.

[SimpleEnigma]

@Boeroer do you have a written build of your Tidefall barbarian? It's a build I'd love to try out.

[Boeroer]

No, it's not a special build I invented. I read about it somewhere when the game was new and it was one of my first barbs. I really liked him. 

It's just Sanguin Plate, Tidefall and Shod-in-Faith combined with low RES in order to get crits that trigger Frenzy and Consecrated Ground.

 

Stats woul be like (without cultural background and special race - but can be different)

 

MIG 16

CON 10

DEX 15

PER 15

INT 16

RES 3

 

High MIG and INT are great for Healing and Duration of Consecrated Ground and also the duration of Frenzy. You could lower DEX a bit since TIdefall's wounding lasts for 5 seconds base (longe with high INT) and only gets refreshed when you hit again while it's still on - it doesn't really stack. 

 

Abilities

Barbaric Yell

Bloodlust

Savage Defiance

One Stands Alone

Thick Skinned

Threatening Presence

Brute Force (only if you have someone who can apply Weakened in an AoE - like Priet with Painful Interdiction)

or Dragon Leap

 

Talents

Accurate Carnage

Stalwart Defiance

Vulnerable Attack

Savage Attack

Two Handed Style

Weapon Focus Soldier

Bloody Slaughter

 

DR+2 from the Crucible Knights

 

Items:

Helm: Dunryd Demon or Tempered Helm or Garodh's Chorus

Neck: Cloak of Protection

Armor: Sanguine Plate (crush proofed, INT +2 or MIG+2 - depends on helmet) 

Ring: Ring of Overseeing

Ring: Ring of Thorns

Hands: Bracers of Deflection

Belt: Blunting Belt

Feet: Boots of Stability

 

With the new Survival bonuses I would give him 9 points (you get +2 from the plate) and use the DR+4 bonus most of the time. With Exceptional Sanguine Plate, the Blunting Belt, Thick Skinned, DR+2 from the Knights of the Crucible and +4 from resting his DR is really impressive. His Deflection and Concentration are not...

I think his DR against physical damage will be around 31-33. 

[Livegood118]

I know this thread is only for "general" Barbarian chat,but if we're getting in to further optimisation discussion I'd just like to talk about the value of Dex on a Barb.

 

Barbs are one of the few classes with a lot of good innate recovery reducing abilities. Frenzy (-33%) and Bloodlust (-20%) alone give you -53% to recovery. If you've got Durgan Steel that's another -15%, then add on a fast weapon and you've got another -20% = -88% Recovery. If you want to go over-kill you can throw on the gloves of swift action too, though I don't think they'd make sense given you can use the same slot to boost your accuracy by a lot.

 

Under high recovery conditions – which necessarily entails a reduction in the total amount of frames involved in animation/recovery – the value of Dex is diminished because it effectively modifies your total frames like the following: Y/X (where Y = total animation + recovery frames and X = Action speed modifer + 1).

 

So, with 60 total frames and 20 Dex your total attack+recovery frames would be: 60/1.3 = 46.15 (-13.85)

 

With 40 Attack frames and 20 Dex your total attack+recovery frames are: 40/1.3 = 30.77 (-9.23)

 

Then a Barbarian with a two hander and 90% Recovery = 33/1.3 = 25.38 (-7.62)

 

This math isn't completely precise but the general gist is that Dex actually has diminishing returns with lower relative numbers of frames. Just something to think about, particularly where more points in Perception could be giving you some poorly needed accuracy. 

 

[Boeroer]

That's right. It's even better: the speed bonuses from abilities and items stack muliplicatively. So it would be like: 1.33(frenzy)*1.2(bloodlust)*1.15(durgan)*1.2(speed enchant) > 2. That means that you have zero recovery - whether you have 3 DEX or 20.

 

But if you're wearing a plate, use Vulnerable Attack and wield a non-speedy 2H-weapon DEX ist still useful.

[Livegood118]

Seriously!? As in 1.33*1.2 = 1.596*1.15 = 1.8354 *1.2 = 2.20? Is that working as intended? As far as I knew every bonus in the game was additive    

[Boeroer]

It's like that, yes. Some things get multiplied (like speed enchantment, durgan steel, abilities, items like Gauntlets of Swift Action...), some added/substracted (like Two Weapon Style and armor recovery penalty). You can read it all here, Kaylon did some intense research and testing:

Attack Speed 2.0

[Livegood118]

god now I need to learn everything again 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

This math isn't completely precise but the general gist is that Dex actually has diminishing returns with lower relative numbers of frames. Just something to think about, particularly where more points in Perception could be giving you some poorly needed accuracy. 

 

 

Hrm. I'd actually draw the opposite conclusion; Dex has increasing marginal returns as you stack other speed enhancing gear. As I posted in the speed thread:

 

 Another way of phrasing this: the more you invest in speed, the larger your fractional gain from each additional point of dex is going to be. Each point of dexterity takes 3% off of a standard 66-frame attack and recovery animation, i.e, roughly two frames. On the other hand, if your recovery is down to 0, it'll take one frame off of a 30 frame animation -- but that one frame reduction is a bigger chunk of 30 than two frames are a chunk of 66 (because the recovery animation has a few extra frames). 

 

Overall it's a small effect but percentage-wise you're actually gaining more from Dex, relative to what you would be with 10 dex, the more speed you stack. Of course you are correct that in absolute terms the gains are smaller -- your dex is shaving off fewer frames per attack, the more speed you stack -- but percentage-wise over the course of many attacks, at zero recovery, each additional point of Dex is making you attack again faster than each point is doing at 100% recovery.

[Boeroer]

Let's agree that you wouldn't notice the difference in combat unless you really want to.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Let's agree that you wouldn't notice the difference in combat unless you really want to.

 

Yeah, that's absolute true. I'm just making the point because I think people get distracted by "0 recovery" and forget that the recovery animation is only half the action animation, and dex still helps reduce the other half, even if all your other gear gets you to zero recovery. So dex is still valuable for speed builds even if stacking all relevant gear.

[AndreaColombo]

and dex still helps reduce the other half

 

... and every other action your character undertakes. Besides, there are combat actions (e.g. sipping a potion) whose recovery time isn't affected by your weapon's Speed enchant or Durgan-refinement. DEX reduces the animation and recovery duration of those actions.

[Boeroer]

And reload time! Don't forget reload time!

[foma_mgppu]

Ugh, thanks, guys. I guess... Not that I am ungrateful, but as Arch-Mage said,I don't understand pretty much all of this.

But nevertheless, I thank all of you for your tips and bits of wisdom (especially Arch-Mage), which will presumably start to sink in, albeit after some time.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Ugh, thanks, guys. I guess... Not that I am ungrateful, but as Arch-Mage said,I don't understand pretty much all of this.

But nevertheless, I thank all of you for your tips and bits of wisdom (especially Arch-Mage), which will presumably start to sink in, albeit after some time.

 

 

Hah, ok, let me try to break this down into simpler terms for you.

 

First thing is that PoE doesn't really have any "dump stats" on a class basis, but it does on a build basis. i.e., you can make a High-int, Low-strength barbarian character and make it effective, but you have to pick the right skills and weapons for that kind of build. 

 

Might gives a damage bonus on every swing / spell / action. Good for everyone who deals damage.

 

Con just gives 5% more health per point. This is generally a good stat for barbarians but extra points can be a bit of a waste -- as long as you have enough to not die, you have all you need.

 

Per is a bonus on your to-hit roll. Very useful on PotD, good for everyone, but not as necessary.

 

Dex is action speed. HIgher dex you'll do everything faster.

 

Int is duration of buffs and area of AoE's. Good for longer Frenzy, higher Carnage area, etc. 

 

Resolve is deflection -- i.e., chance the enemy hits you in combat. Higher your resolve, less often you'll be hit.

 

So all of those are good for some kinds of barbarians, depending on what kind you want to play. You can play one that's slow but hard-hitting, or fast and hard hitting but dumb, or fast and hard hitting and smart but fragile, etc. etc. etc. 

 

One popular build drops Resolve low but makes it up in Con -- you get hit a lot but you can take the hits because of how tough you are. I've got a barbarian in my party right now that has high Int, Dex, and Per, but low Might and Res, and it performs very well (but she's geared out in a very specific way). 

[Boeroer]

Ugh, thanks, guys. I guess... Not that I am ungrateful, but as Arch-Mage said,I don't understand pretty much all of this.

But nevertheless, I thank all of you for your tips and bits of wisdom (especially Arch-Mage), which will presumably start to sink in, albeit after some time.

Haha - I can really imagine the expression on your face when you wrote this. 

[foma_mgppu]

 

Ugh, thanks, guys. I guess... Not that I am ungrateful, but as Arch-Mage said,I don't understand pretty much all of this.

But nevertheless, I thank all of you for your tips and bits of wisdom (especially Arch-Mage), which will presumably start to sink in, albeit after some time.

 

 

Hah, ok, let me try to break this down into simpler terms for you.

 

First thing is that PoE doesn't really have any "dump stats" on a class basis, but it does on a build basis. i.e., you can make a High-int, Low-strength barbarian character and make it effective, but you have to pick the right skills and weapons for that kind of build. 

 

Might gives a damage bonus on every swing / spell / action. Good for everyone who deals damage.

 

Con just gives 5% more health per point. This is generally a good stat for barbarians but extra points can be a bit of a waste -- as long as you have enough to not die, you have all you need.

 

Per is a bonus on your to-hit roll. Very useful on PotD, good for everyone, but not as necessary.

 

Dex is action speed. HIgher dex you'll do everything faster.

 

Int is duration of buffs and area of AoE's. Good for longer Frenzy, higher Carnage area, etc. 

 

Resolve is deflection -- i.e., chance the enemy hits you in combat. Higher your resolve, less often you'll be hit.

 

So all of those are good for some kinds of barbarians, depending on what kind you want to play. You can play one that's slow but hard-hitting, or fast and hard hitting but dumb, or fast and hard hitting and smart but fragile, etc. etc. etc. 

 

One popular build drops Resolve low but makes it up in Con -- you get hit a lot but you can take the hits because of how tough you are. I've got a barbarian in my party right now that has high Int, Dex, and Per, but low Might and Res, and it performs very well (but she's geared out in a very specific way). 

 

 

What I want is a barbarian that fits hard and fast, but he's not the smartest.

That's what, I think, my sirst biuld is: Death Godlike with stats: Might19, Con9, Dex10, Per18, Int13, Res9.

 

19 might to hit hard

9 con, because he's not a tank, rather 2nd line DD

10 Dex, average hit rate

18 Per for accuracy (especially with 2h)

13 Int, because Int is important also (but for this build not very)

9 Res, because it will only lower deflection a little (see con)

 

My question is: is it legit? Is it viable? Will it take me through the entire game at hard difficulty without MUCH trouble? Given right perks, talents and equipment. of course?

Or should I better reconsider it before it is too late (I've just recently recruited what's-his-face fighter near the hangman tree in Gilded Vale).

I know, that I can lower difficulty, but I want to play at hard.

That is question, I want to address to you.

[foma_mgppu]

 

Ugh, thanks, guys. I guess... Not that I am ungrateful, but as Arch-Mage said,I don't understand pretty much all of this.

But nevertheless, I thank all of you for your tips and bits of wisdom (especially Arch-Mage), which will presumably start to sink in, albeit after some time.

Haha - I can really imagine the expression on your face when you wrote this. 

 

 

Yeah, it was like: 

[AndreaColombo]

My question is: is it legit? Is it viable?

 

Short answer: Yes.

 

In Pillars of Eternity, tactics and strategy are generally worth a lot more than character builds—and that's especially true at difficulty levels below PotD. The class and attribute systems are flexible enough to allow the creation of any character you may like, and the game is structured in a way that makes virtually every build able to beat it (this was one of Obsidian's early design goals, btw.)

 

So yes, you can definitely beat the game on Hard difficulty with that Barbarian build (or any other, pretty much.)

 

What you need to keep in mind, however, is that PoE barbarians are very different from D&D barbarians. In PoE, barbarians are not good single-target damage dealers, and they cannot take a lot of punishment. Those are the purview of Fighters and Monks. Barbarians are AoE damage dealers and crowd controllers, and their bread and butter is the Carnage ability (which incidentally benefits a lot from INT.) If your goal is single-target DPS, a Fighter or a Monk will suit you much better than a Barbarian; conversely, if you try to play a Barbarian as a single-target damage dealer, you're probably not going to enjoy it very much. Food for thought.

Edited January 26, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[DreamWayfarer]

What I want is a barbarian that fits hard and fast, but he's not the smartest.

That's what, I think, my sirst biuld is: Death Godlike with stats: Might19, Con9, Dex10, Per18, Int13, Res9.

 

19 might to hit hard

9 con, because he's not a tank, rather 2nd line DD

10 Dex, average hit rate

18 Per for accuracy (especially with 2h)

13 Int, because Int is important also (but for this build not very)

9 Res, because it will only lower deflection a little (see con)

 

My question is: is it legit? Is it viable? Will it take me through the entire game at hard difficulty without MUCH trouble? Given right perks, talents and equipment. of course?

Or should I better reconsider it before it is too late (I've just recently recruited what's-his-face fighter near the hangman tree in Gilded Vale).

I know, that I can lower difficulty, but I want to play at hard.

That is question, I want to address to you.

13 INT is not worth it fir your Barbarian then. In the 16-18 range it gives a significant boost to carnage area and durations, but 13 doens't let you hit what you wouldn't hit with less INT.

 

If you really wish a low INT Barb, I suppose you could lower it to 10 or perhaps even 8 and put those points in damage dealing stats. Perhaps you could afford to lower further, I don't know for sure.

 

With a Draining weapon, your Barbarian should be able to hit all foes touching his target and do big damage to them, no matter how low your INT is, and if you decided to lower INT to, say, 3 for a true musclebound brute, and increase CON, you could have a moderately tanky frontliner with good damage that self-heals.

 

But then, a Fighter would be much more effective at that.

Edited January 26, 2016 by DreamWayfarer