Vancian magic

[archangel979]

I think Bioware wanted people to get the feeling of exploring and provided opportunities.  I guess they also wanted to make it more 'real' in that there were houses with working doors.  That doesn't seem as useful to me because it still amounted to a Hollywood set with a few props.  It was difficult to completely buy in to the idea that this was a vibrant and living city just because there were a lot of doors leading to more or less empty locations with sterile environments.  However, I think it was a great attempt.  It was an experiment that didn't work out as well in theory as it might have seemed when conceived.

 

For my purposes, I can't help but think that sometimes trying to create a more vibrant feel by promising more exploration that amounts to aimless wandering works counter to the plan.  A world where I'm allowed to go anywhere only to find that most places are in the middle of nowhere with nothing much to do only draws attention to the fact that it's all fabricated, kind of like walking out of the bar on Cheers only to see the cameras and work crews.

 

Of course, if you could go into those houses and rest long enough to learn your spells, you would have a perfect hideway to practice your Vancian magic!

And in 1998 it was cool. If you entered at night NPCs would sleep in beds and you could steal unnoticed. PoE does not even have that basic stuff.

[Ink Blot]

That was a great read. Insanely accurate and better represents what a Generation X RPG gamer should wholeheartedly experiences while playing PoE. Halfway through reading that I instantly thought to myself that it is rare for a forum post to properly pinpoint the fact that "nostalgia" drives the disheartened critic of a quality game.

 

You got that covered too though, "nostalgia playes a huuuuuuge role to how we see Pillars compared with older IE games."

There's merit in that.

 

Unfortunately, I think that many people that post issues/dislike for the game are too easily handwaved away as suffering rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Personally, I wasn't impressed with the game and felt it didn't meet the goals as stated by the devs in the kickstarter. Granted, that's subjective, but it's the way I feel about the game.

 

And I have to say it's not nostalgia that I still find the old IE games more fun than PoE.

[Zenbane]

 

That was a great read. Insanely accurate and better represents what a Generation X RPG gamer should wholeheartedly experiences while playing PoE. Halfway through reading that I instantly thought to myself that it is rare for a forum post to properly pinpoint the fact that "nostalgia" drives the disheartened critic of a quality game.

 

You got that covered too though, "nostalgia playes a huuuuuuge role to how we see Pillars compared with older IE games."

There's merit in that.

 

Unfortunately, I think that many people that post issues/dislike for the game are too easily handwaved away as suffering rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Personally, I wasn't impressed with the game and felt it didn't meet the goals as stated by the devs in the kickstarter. Granted, that's subjective, but it's the way I feel about the game.

 

And I have to say it's not nostalgia that I still find the old IE games more fun than PoE.

 

 

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to imply that if someone doesn't like PoE, then clearly they fall in to one and only one category. Fact of the matter is that we are all unique 'lil snowflakes and it could be anything from color palette to voice actors that ruin a game for someone. I have a buddy who quit Fallout 4 last week because he said it was too depressing seeing people in rags all the time lol

 

There is a certain type of critic/cynic that, imo, ends up being more predominant in gaming forum communities. That is more along the lines of what I was directing my sentiment towards. If anyone here remembers when the Vault Network forums were in their prime then you know precisely what I mean. In contrast to the Something Awful gaming forums that does a much better job of filtering out the noise.

 

I wouldn't rank PoE as a top RPG of all time (in lets say, a Top 10 list), however, in the past 3 years it is definitely one of the most enjoyable RPG experiences for me personally. PoE and Grimrock are highest on my list. And to put that in perspective, my #1 favorite RPG in the past 10 years would have to be Morrowind.

[Ink Blot]

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to imply that if someone doesn't like PoE, then clearly they fall in to one and only one category. Fact of the matter is that we are all unique 'lil snowflakes and it could be anything from color palette to voice actors that ruin a game for someone. I have a buddy who quit Fallout 4 last week because he said it was too depressing seeing people in rags all the time lol

 

There is a certain type of critic/cynic that, imo, ends up being more predominant in gaming forum communities. That is more along the lines of what I was directing my sentiment towards. If anyone here remembers when the Vault Network forums were in their prime then you know precisely what I mean. In contrast to the Something Awful gaming forums that does a much better job of filtering out the noise.

 

I wouldn't rank PoE as a top RPG of all time (in lets say, a Top 10 list), however, in the past 3 years it is definitely one of the most enjoyable RPG experiences for me personally. PoE and Grimrock are highest on my list. And to put that in perspective, my #1 favorite RPG in the past 10 years would have to be Morrowind.

 

No worries. Just wanted to point out that, as powerful as nostalgia can be, it's not always what's driving criticism toward this or any other game that's 'inspired by', a 'spiritual successor to', etc. etc. Although I didn't find the game was more than a 'meh' for me, I see a ton of potential for PoE2 and would still have no qualms backing it (if they go that route) - although not to the extent I backed this one.

[anameforobsidian]

Baldur's Gate (the city) had significantly more content than Defiance Bay.  The temples, the Museum, the multiple inns, the airship caper, the rando mage fight in the mage shop, the orphan with creepy people watching, the thieves guild, the sewers, the seven suns, the warehouses in the docks, the dead kid quest....  I have to say that Pillars just didn't match it in Defiance Bay.  

 

I liked Defiance Bay well enough, but it needed more NPCs, locations, and sidequests.

[Zenbane]

Getting to Defiance Bay wasn't exactly friendly. The northern bridge was out of commission, and both looters and monsters plague the surrounding area. In trying to get to Defiance Bay I had to help a woman retrieve cargo from her boat that looters were in control of, and due to the bridge being out I had to find an alternate route by taking a more dangerous road.

 

When I finally arrived in the city, I came across a woman whose boyfriend was really an evil wizard that was keeping the local citizens completely addicted to drugs, while the real boyfriend was bound 'n gagged in the back room. Not to mention that the first few locations I entered hoping to find a quality weapons and armor smith were populated with a bunch of armed guards and/or armed mercenaries, all of which had no qualms letting my group know they we aint welcome.

 

And that's just within the first 30 minutes of arriving. So yeah, I can understand if the entire city is either empty or has locked doors. It's hard to get there without dying and when you arrive, 90% of the people are sadistic a-holes.  I don't see the problem lol

Edited December 15, 2015 by Zenbane

[RojayNola]

Baldur's Gate (the city) had significantly more content than Defiance Bay.  The temples, the Museum, the multiple inns, the airship caper, the rando mage fight in the mage shop, the orphan with creepy people watching, the thieves guild, the sewers, the seven suns, the warehouses in the docks, the dead kid quest....  I have to say that Pillars just didn't match it in Defiance Bay.  

 

I liked Defiance Bay well enough, but it needed more NPCs, locations, and sidequests.

It's been a long time since I played BG, but that's my memory too. I liked PoE, and I'm looking forward to the 2nd half of the expansion as well as a sequel, but I'm not sure I'd compare PoE to either BG or BG2.

 

But the real reason I responded is to call not just for Vancian magic, but for original AD&D MATERIAL COMPONENTS. I want to see wizards grinding up gems, burning hair and tracing arcane patterns with exotic materials on the ground. I want incense and candles and powdered motherf***ing NEWT. 

 

You kids have your "mana" and your "cool-downs." I will be here in the corner with an odd look in my eye, rolling a ball of bat guano and sulfur just before I make boom-fire.  

[Zenbane]

There's "mana" in PoE? I must have missed that part, I might double-check. Although, if you're making boom-fire with bat guano and sulfur, then you're an alchemist, not a mage lol

[why]

It's been a while, but I don't recall materials in the IEgames. I remember ToEE had some sort of system like that. At least it cost a hundred gold to cast Identification, which only gave you the name and no information about the item. Of course, that was a feature.

 

At any rate, Pillars is no Dungeons and Dragons and couldn't be even if Obsidian wanted it to be.

[Ink Blot]

It's been a while, but I don't recall materials in the IEgames. I remember ToEE had some sort of system like that. At least it cost a hundred gold to cast Identification, which only gave you the name and no information about the item. Of course, that was a feature.

 

At any rate, Pillars is no Dungeons and Dragons and couldn't be even if Obsidian wanted it to be.

He didn't say it was in the IE games, but was referencing the AD&D rules themselves.

[archangel979]

 

Baldur's Gate (the city) had significantly more content than Defiance Bay.  The temples, the Museum, the multiple inns, the airship caper, the rando mage fight in the mage shop, the orphan with creepy people watching, the thieves guild, the sewers, the seven suns, the warehouses in the docks, the dead kid quest....  I have to say that Pillars just didn't match it in Defiance Bay.  

 

I liked Defiance Bay well enough, but it needed more NPCs, locations, and sidequests.

It's been a long time since I played BG, but that's my memory too. I liked PoE, and I'm looking forward to the 2nd half of the expansion as well as a sequel, but I'm not sure I'd compare PoE to either BG or BG2.

 

But the real reason I responded is to call not just for Vancian magic, but for original AD&D MATERIAL COMPONENTS. I want to see wizards grinding up gems, burning hair and tracing arcane patterns with exotic materials on the ground. I want incense and candles and powdered motherf***ing NEWT. 

 

You kids have your "mana" and your "cool-downs." I will be here in the corner with an odd look in my eye, rolling a ball of bat guano and sulfur just before I make boom-fire.

 

I remember thinking about this when I was originally playing IE games, but even then concluded most people would hate it

And it is too complicated to implement only as an optional mechanic.

[archangel979]

There's "mana" in PoE? I must have missed that part, I might double-check. Although, if you're making boom-fire with bat guano and sulfur, then you're an alchemist, not a mage lol

Well Ciphers are kind of using Mana. So are monks.

[Ganrich]

 

 

Baldur's Gate (the city) had significantly more content than Defiance Bay. The temples, the Museum, the multiple inns, the airship caper, the rando mage fight in the mage shop, the orphan with creepy people watching, the thieves guild, the sewers, the seven suns, the warehouses in the docks, the dead kid quest.... I have to say that Pillars just didn't match it in Defiance Bay.

 

I liked Defiance Bay well enough, but it needed more NPCs, locations, and sidequests.

It's been a long time since I played BG, but that's my memory too. I liked PoE, and I'm looking forward to the 2nd half of the expansion as well as a sequel, but I'm not sure I'd compare PoE to either BG or BG2.

 

But the real reason I responded is to call not just for Vancian magic, but for original AD&D MATERIAL COMPONENTS. I want to see wizards grinding up gems, burning hair and tracing arcane patterns with exotic materials on the ground. I want incense and candles and powdered motherf***ing NEWT.

 

You kids have your "mana" and your "cool-downs." I will be here in the corner with an odd look in my eye, rolling a ball of bat guano and sulfur just before I make boom-fire.

I remember thinking about this when I was originally playing IE games, but even then concluded most people would hate it

And it is too complicated to implement only as an optional mechanic.

Could've gone the Ultima route of just consuming reagents. Honestly, it would have deterred rest spamming by having limits on reagents, and you could have limited key reagents thus bringing limits to the wizards higher level spells.

 

I think a lot of games would benefit from using a reagent/component system.

[Guest 4ward]

No worries. Just wanted to point out that, as powerful as nostalgia can be, it's not always what's driving criticism toward this or any other game that's 'inspired by', a 'spiritual successor to', etc. etc. Although I didn't find the game was more than a 'meh' for me, I see a ton of potential for PoE2 and would still have no qualms backing it (if they go that route) - although not to the extent I backed this one.

 

 

 

 

PoE is a disappointment to me and i gave up on the game. I'm still interested what PoE2 will offer though. It would be nice if developpers/publishers would offer trial versions of their games something like a month after release so that it's stable and guys could play the first areas in the game to get a picture whetther to buy it or not. I'd gladly spend 5 usd to be able to play for a couple days and judge for myself. The trial version could be limited for the first areas and be for a trial time like e.g. 2 days. They could offer even alpha trial version for people who'd like to give input, then beta trial version for people who report bugs and as above a realease trial version.

[why]

 

It's been a while, but I don't recall materials in the IEgames. I remember ToEE had some sort of system like that. At least it cost a hundred gold to cast Identification, which only gave you the name and no information about the item. Of course, that was a feature.

 

At any rate, Pillars is no Dungeons and Dragons and couldn't be even if Obsidian wanted it to be.

He didn't say it was in the IE games, but was referencing the AD&D rules themselves.

 

I kind of thought so, which is why I put in the part that Pillars isn't and cannot be AD&D. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I take the advocacy of spell materials even less seriously than the idea that the game isn't enough like the IE games. Even in table top dungeons and dragons, I thought the material components were jarring. Having a bunch (or even a relatively small) number of material components necessary for spells made for a level of complexity that a lot of players found off-putting. Bioware and Black Isle Studios could have included material components in the games if they had so chosen, but decided not to do it. The idea of grinding out components a la Ultima IV, say, is stultifyingly dismaying. However, if the idea is to artificially limit rest in yet one more way (because the thing that some people seem to hate about the game is the ability of some player to rest if he or she wants) why not just abstract the material components into gold. That would also be another gold sink. I think any or all of these ideas are crazy. I can't speak for anyone else, but my opinion is that most players wouldn't want to have to worry about these things. If we're going to do that, I would say the ammunition situation is actually a little bit jarring to me. I don't mind it, but at least I notice it. The lack of material components isn't even a blip on my radar and the idea of them implementing it would worry me if I thought Obsidian would do it.

[evilcat]

I do not like Vancian system since in 1st playthough i never know if its right time to use my limited resourses, and ended using just arcane blast.

I like much more "rage" mechanic of Ciphers, You get mana from hitting things. Chanter and Monk mechanic is also ok.

It gets better when you have per encounter spells, since you can plan each encounter and just burn out of spells each time.

All "per rest" abilities seems to be inferior for me.

Vancian system generally is hard to balance in caster vs melee. Spell must be valuable as per rest and as per encounter. And PoE generall fails in that, spells are better than what melee can do. Hitting one of the enemies is good, but hitting all of them at once is better.

 

I could live what we have, i ended with using 1/4 of spells in each big encounter. And rest once per 4 big encounters. The placement of rest kits suits that.

Game is designed around Vancian system so it is not a bid deal.

 

I wish wizards could take talent "Magic Missiles 3/encounter" So at low level i can spam something without worrying if i will need spells laiter.

I wish melee (no caster, and to some degree chanters) talents/abilities ware better, to match end game caster power. Like instead of "Bonus knockdown" get "Improved Knockdown - 1 more use, and knockdown deals full dmg with +5acc"

 

Some alternative to magic system would be expendable mana pool with slow regeneration over time (and after encounter), where low level spells cost less. So we can spam flame fun or cast one big nuke. That would even allow some meta magic - modals which increase mana burn for extra effects.

Edited December 17, 2015 by evilcat

[anameforobsidian]

 

 

 

Baldur's Gate (the city) had significantly more content than Defiance Bay. The temples, the Museum, the multiple inns, the airship caper, the rando mage fight in the mage shop, the orphan with creepy people watching, the thieves guild, the sewers, the seven suns, the warehouses in the docks, the dead kid quest.... I have to say that Pillars just didn't match it in Defiance Bay.

 

I liked Defiance Bay well enough, but it needed more NPCs, locations, and sidequests.

It's been a long time since I played BG, but that's my memory too. I liked PoE, and I'm looking forward to the 2nd half of the expansion as well as a sequel, but I'm not sure I'd compare PoE to either BG or BG2.

 

But the real reason I responded is to call not just for Vancian magic, but for original AD&D MATERIAL COMPONENTS. I want to see wizards grinding up gems, burning hair and tracing arcane patterns with exotic materials on the ground. I want incense and candles and powdered motherf***ing NEWT.

 

You kids have your "mana" and your "cool-downs." I will be here in the corner with an odd look in my eye, rolling a ball of bat guano and sulfur just before I make boom-fire.

I remember thinking about this when I was originally playing IE games, but even then concluded most people would hate it

And it is too complicated to implement only as an optional mechanic.

Could've gone the Ultima route of just consuming reagents. Honestly, it would have deterred rest spamming by having limits on reagents, and you could have limited key reagents thus bringing limits to the wizards higher level spells.

 

I think a lot of games would benefit from using a reagent/component system.

 

 

I would bet that most players are biologically hard-wired to hate reagent systems, because of loss aversion.

Edited December 17, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[Ganrich]

Oh, no doubt. I'm just pointing out that the component/reagent system is very capable of solving a lot of "gamey" issues in cRPGs. I definitely think people have huge psychological issues with such a system. I'm a hoarder of potions, scrolls, and the like in cRPGs myself.

[why]

 

Could've gone the Ultima route of just consuming reagents. Honestly, it would have deterred rest spamming by having limits on reagents, and you could have limited key reagents thus bringing limits to the wizards higher level spells.

 

I think a lot of games would benefit from using a reagent/component system.

 

I would bet that most players are biologically hard-wired to hate reagent systems, because of loss aversion.

 

This doesn't make sense. By this logic, people would hate the material components for enchanting in the game. It's also making a more reaching assumption while bypassing what I imagine is much more of a concern than fantasy game money, namely time and convenience.

 

I would bet, since we're both making assumptions about player psychology, that players would be more willing to drop more gold as an abstraction of casting spells than would be willing to use fewer resources gathering spell casting materials.

 

I understand that some people like the resource management of spell components, and it's probably all a matter of where they draw the line, but attributing the underlying psychology to loss aversion goes out of the way to find causality that can be reasonably pegged closer at hand.

 

Why do people seem okay with gathering mats or buying mats for enchanting but not want to do the same for spell casting? Once again, pretending I'm a psychiatrist, which seems to me a fantasy we're sharing at the moment, I would say that spell casting has a more immediate feel to the player. He or she wants to feel a certain instant access to spell-casting, particularly in battle. Along these lines, I don't think most folks would mind paying gold or using resources to cast out of combat spells nearly so much as in combat spells. Also, enchanting seems like much more of a process while spellcasting has been increasingly seen as a personal ability intimately part of the player him or herself. Once again, I believe that's much more the case for combat casting. Finally, enchanting is both optional and relatively uncommon in comparison to spell casting. I remember being forced to spend a significant amount of real world time combing reagents in Ultima IV. The cost didn't mean much to me in the game, particularly after I had so much money I could buy more than enough reagents. Even before then, it was just one more thing on which I was forced to spend money. I didn't mind paying for weapons or armor. I didn't mind paying to sleep at an inn. The theory of loss aversion contends that people will be averse to loss more than they will seek gain, which may work in a real world setting where both are felt long term. That makes sense as gaining an extra week of food is certainly less of a gain than losing my current week of food and starving. In a game setting, this isn't the same. There is almost always an abundance of monetary resources early on in just about any CRPG I've played in a long long time.

 

Now, what I wouldn't mind, as long as they did it right, is spell components abstracted. Maybe like Ultima IV where you needed to find the right recipes and even combine them at the right times, but make the whole scenario more convenient because I will remain convinced it's not the resources that people mind. It's the time and convenience.

[anameforobsidian]

 

.

 

This doesn't make sense. By this logic, people would hate the material components for enchanting in the game. It's also making a more reaching assumption while bypassing what I imagine is much more of a concern than fantasy game money, namely time and convenience.

 

Why do people seem okay with gathering mats or buying mats for enchanting but not want to do the same for spell casting? 

 

When you use consumables, you trade a permanent loss for a temporary grain.  The more common the consumable, the less that loss is felt, and the more likely it's used.  When you enchant you trade a permanent loss of items you can't use (reagents) for a permanent gain in items you do use (weapons & armor).  

[why]

Substitute cooking for enchanting then. Food is the quintessential temporary benefit. :D I think I read somewhere someone complaining about how food is overpowered. lol

 

I actually don't disagree that there's a commodity trade that discourages material components. I just think it goes beyond the in game resources and rather reflects players not wanting to take real life time for it. I don't like the idea of a material component mechanic, but it's not because I'm afraid of spending too much money in the game. Maybe I'm atypical, but I've been playing these games for a long time and I've never had any problem with spending cash on the mats. I didn't mind the 100gp for casting ID in the Temple of Elemental Evil. The fact that it screwed over the player if he or she didn't yank out his DM's guide to read what the items were, but the gold didn't bug me all that much.

 

On the other hand, having had my say, I'll let it go.

[PrimeJunta]

When you use consumables, you trade a permanent loss for a temporary grain.  The more common the consumable, the less that loss is felt, and the more likely it's used.  When you enchant you trade a permanent loss of items you can't use (reagents) for a permanent gain in items you do use (weapons & armor).

This is so very true. The permanent loss/temporary gain trade-off in a base mechanic is usually bad design, as it strongly incentivises hoarding. Most players are reluctant to use even ready-made consumables for this reason; instead they struggle through with renewables, saving those sweet scrolls and potions for the boss battle that never comes.

 

If you have material use for a core mechanic -- alchemy, spells etc. -- then those materials have to be renewable too. The Witchers do this nicely -- alchemy is fairly crucial, but herbs regrow and monsters respawn so you can always get more materials. Conversely, the non-renewable materials (from non-respawning monsters) can be used to create mutagens which produce permanent gains.

 

Incidentally, this is one case where respawning monsters makes sense.

[Ganrich]

When I suggested it (components/reagents for casting), I was thinking about big spells from IE games like time stop, or things of similar potency. Basically, the best of the high level spells.

 

I think using components for big hitting spells, large AoE (fireball), big time CC would be fine. Where minor spells like Missiles, some buffs, etc could have a per day/per encounter limit.

 

If the use of those components truly changes the course of a hard fight then that loss would be worth it.

 

You wouldn't rest spam because that won't bring back the mandrake root you need for that high level spell. You wouldn't dump your best spells based on mana availability. Etc.

 

It solves those issues, but brings its own as well.

[PrimeJunta]

I prefer super-strong one-off spell-likes to be put in consumables instead. The point with spells is that they're a renewable resource.

[Ganrich]

I prefer super-strong one-off spell-likes to be put in consumables instead. The point with spells is that they're a renewable resource.

I'm not even talking about it being a one off, though. I am just talking about not being able to use it every encounter.

 

It's personal preference though. We could probably run in circles on the topic for hours.