Shame on you, Obsidian.

[Fenixp]

I got Pillars of Eternity roughly at the same time I got Witcher 3. I got bored with Witcher 3 relatively quickly, yet finished PoE twice in a row. And Witcher was my favourite RPG franchise up to that point.

[Stoner]

One of the most bug free and balanced games (cRPG no less) I have played like in 3-5 years? Seriously, almost each new game comes out is completely broken mess, no matter the genre or developer, its' either horrible optimization with mediocre graphics that choke GTX 980 in SLI to 10 FPS or CTD on CTD with broken save system or something.

 

Pillars have some issues but its HARDLY noticable and surely not gamebreaking compared to other games out there... see no reason on whining about that.

[Guest BugsVendor]

What I hoped to experience from pillars was baldurs gate 2 depth. But there is non of that.

 

I just hoped that since they had been doing the game without the open world, without all this crap that is now considered must have, that they would be able to focus on top tier rpg mechanics and good deep story. But there is just non of that.

 

Companions story? Aloth and Edgar a bit yeah. Others? few boring quests, nothing more.

 

99% of conversations completely forgettable.

 

And that weird distributions of dialogues. grieving mother and durance had so much useless text. Text I didn't care for at all, simply because there was no way I could connect it to current problems. But interesting quests had often just a few lines. Why.

 

There was so much history and myths and almost nothing about the current state of events. It was boring.

 

It is clear to me that there were parts of dialogue and story really thought out and huge number of it put in last minute or "as is" before the release. 

 

----------------------------------------

 

So much of the world didn't make any sense. Od nua caves, 3 levels with nothing, 0 story, 0 quests, just goo things and trolls. It looked nice but yeah disappointment again.

I even made a mistake of listening to developer diary on 1 play-through and dude said something like "We wanted to make a vampire level and this is it". This is the world design they have. "Vampire level". Great. Thanks Obsi.

 

That location below the city with "cobolds" and dragons walking around without any explanation or a single line of dialogue. That whole place along with it's population was sicked into the game in like 2 hours. There is no way any game designer or developer looked at this. Complete joke.

 

The last city was empty, few quests, boring too, like they did all this beautiful visuals and there is nothing to populate it with.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

mechanics / combat  - still better in the classics I'm afraid. Too much tank and spank even though I liked a few changes introduced. There was just no variety, no interesting opponents with unique abilities. 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

This game had a potential. There were moments I admit. But Overall experience goes to average shelf.

 

Way too much of stupid for crap, crafting that had no purpose what so ever but fulfilling a check list, boring and useless fort mini game. They have spent time on that and rushed core elements of the game, and it's painfully evident.

 

Even though I'm a complete sucker (I bought this game for full price! crazy!) for rpg like this I didn't buy and will not buy the dlc. 

[Zenbane]

What I hoped to experience from pillars was baldurs gate 2 depth. But there is non of that.

 

This should not have been another Baldur's Gate. What you see as a downfall I see as a milestone.

 

 

99% of conversations completely forgettable.

...

There was so much history and myths and almost nothing about the current state of events. It was boring.

 

Right so I think the fact that you forgot 99% of the text is why you now think there was nothing about the current state of events. Did you by chance see that big tree with dead bodies hanging from it, and the conflict that arose shortly after? Did you ever make it to Defiance Bay and notice that its original path was blocked? And that's just the first hour or 2 of the game. The current state of events is pretty clear.

 

 

So much of the world didn't make any sense. Od nua caves, 3 levels with nothing, 0 story, 0 quests, just goo things and trolls.

 

Killing creatures in an RPG is typically all the sense we really need. I mean, unless the game suddenly dropped in Jedi Knights or an army of Decepticons then I can't see how slimers and trolls "dont make sense" in a fantasy setting. I recently killed slimers and trolls in Wizardy 8 and Legend of Grimrock, with no back story as to why they are there. Although even if they give backstory, you just ranted about how 99% of the text is useless/forgettable so I'm sure you'd hate that context as well.

 

I agree on the lack of population and the developers know that more content/depth/story is needed, less trash mobs, better use of crafting and the Stronghold, etc. However, you seem to be critical just for the sake of criticism; as noted by the fact that you complain about both the lack of story and the fact that there is too much story:

 

And that weird distributions of dialogues. grieving mother and durance had so much useless text.

 

So if they don't distribute the text (goo and trolls) then things don't make sense, but if they do distribute the text (Grieving Mother and Durance) then it is weird and useless. Alrighty then lol

[Torm51]

What I hoped to experience from pillars was baldurs gate 2 depth. But there is non of that.

 

I just hoped that since they had been doing the game without the open world, without all this crap that is now considered must have, that they would be able to focus on top tier rpg mechanics and good deep story. But there is just non of that.

 

Companions story? Aloth and Edgar a bit yeah. Others? few boring quests, nothing more.

 

99% of conversations completely forgettable.

 

And that weird distributions of dialogues. grieving mother and durance had so much useless text. Text I didn't care for at all, simply because there was no way I could connect it to current problems. But interesting quests had often just a few lines. Why.

 

There was so much history and myths and almost nothing about the current state of events. It was boring.

 

It is clear to me that there were parts of dialogue and story really thought out and huge number of it put in last minute or "as is" before the release. 

 

----------------------------------------

 

So much of the world didn't make any sense. Od nua caves, 3 levels with nothing, 0 story, 0 quests, just goo things and trolls. It looked nice but yeah disappointment again.

I even made a mistake of listening to developer diary on 1 play-through and dude said something like "We wanted to make a vampire level and this is it". This is the world design they have. "Vampire level". Great. Thanks Obsi.

 

That location below the city with "cobolds" and dragons walking around without any explanation or a single line of dialogue. That whole place along with it's population was sicked into the game in like 2 hours. There is no way any game designer or developer looked at this. Complete joke.

 

The last city was empty, few quests, boring too, like they did all this beautiful visuals and there is nothing to populate it with.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

mechanics / combat  - still better in the classics I'm afraid. Too much tank and spank even though I liked a few changes introduced. There was just no variety, no interesting opponents with unique abilities. 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

This game had a potential. There were moments I admit. But Overall experience goes to average shelf.

 

Way too much of stupid for crap, crafting that had no purpose what so ever but fulfilling a check list, boring and useless fort mini game. They have spent time on that and rushed core elements of the game, and it's painfully evident.

 

Even though I'm a complete sucker (I bought this game for full price! crazy!) for rpg like this I didn't buy and will not buy the dlc. 

Cant agree with you.  The story I thought it was freakin great.  Love the world they built and I can play a Paladin in like 4 different ways and that's just one class.  I think the depth is there.  The world is great and the myth of the Engwithyns was awesome.  that's just my opine obviously.  Yes the Stronghold needs work no doubt.  Though I really like the Endless Paths.  A dungeon that has been under ground for centuries will accumulate stuff.  For instance if you read the Cyclopedia it tells you that Blobs grow in dark dank places that are not cleaned and are dark.  It makes sense that a dungeon would have these...etc  I liked it.

[Nicholas Steel]

ZenBane, his complaint is that most of the "story" is irrelevant to your character and that there is too little content that IS relevant to your character (Not to the same extent as what World of Warcraft does, though).

[Zenbane]

I see. The entire "Watcher" story is the only part truly geared towards the Main Character. I know that it has also received a lot of criticism, but I found it to be quite creative. Although perhaps I have played too many RPG's in my life lol - because I find myself caring very little about a story these days. Even when every review and forum post brags about how amazing a story is... I find myself just focusing on the character creation, battles, and hitting that end game content.

 

Even with IceWind Dale... I cared more about leveling up and kill strategies than I did about whatever the hell "heart of winter" was supposed to symbolize

 

For PoE, I find the "Watcher" angle to be highly unique. It hasn't really been done before and the term "watcher" has special meaning for me since it is also a reference to how humans (you know, in real life) can pursue a personal path of Enlightenment (see: Eckhart Tolle). Not to mention that allowing the games Backers to have an NPC with a backstory that can only be revealed by the Watcher's power is caressingly awesome. No other game has done this before (that I know of) and doesn't get enough praise imo.

 

As for all that story of side characters not being relevant to your main character... I dunno, maybe I'm being dense but that's kinda how life is, no? People all around us have their own complex story that doesn't have a damn thing to do with our main character lol

 

[Guest BugsVendor]

I see. The entire "Watcher" story is the only part truly geared towards the Main Character. I know that it has also received a lot of criticism, but I found it to be quite creative. Although perhaps I have played too many RPG's in my life lol - because I find myself caring very little about a story these days. Even when every review and forum post brags about how amazing a story is... I find myself just focusing on the character creation, battles, and hitting that end game content.

 

Even with IceWind Dale... I cared more about leveling up and kill strategies than I did about whatever the hell "heart of winter" was supposed to symbolize

 

For PoE, I find the "Watcher" angle to be highly unique. It hasn't really been done before and the term "watcher" has special meaning for me since it is also a reference to how humans (you know, in real life) can pursue a personal path of Enlightenment (see: Eckhart Tolle). Not to mention that allowing the games Backers to have an NPC with a backstory that can only be revealed by the Watcher's power is caressingly awesome. No other game has done this before (that I know of) and doesn't get enough praise imo.

 

As for all that story of side characters not being relevant to your main character... I dunno, maybe I'm being dense but that's kinda how life is, no? People all around us have their own complex story that doesn't have a damn thing to do with our main character lol

 

This characters created by backers are just so meaningless. Not really badly written or boring but just so irrelevant. So you can use your watcher abilities in this meaningless fashion but not in quests where it could be interesting. Just imagine investigating someone's character whether he is decent or evil person or if he is lying or being truthful and checking clues from his past lives to determine that. It never happens, so many obvious themes associated with powers you are given just never happen. It's disappointing. It doesn't mean it was a bad idea to begin with but just... well rushed to say the least.

 

 

Edit: I liked your post Zenbane it was an accident and I cant unlike it now...

Edited December 3, 2015 by BugsVendor

[Zenbane]

Yes I read some of the earlier threads on here where people complained that the Watcher's ability to see the soul's of NPC Backers is irrelevant, but that proclamation makes absolutely no sense. If a character has the ability to touch souls then it sure does seem relevant for the game to allow... that character to touch a soul. I just ended up dismissing these types of complaints as people being jealous that some Backers have an in-game Avatar. The idea of "gamers being jealous" makes a lot more sense than the idea of, "soul touching is irrelevant in a game about soul touching."

 

As far as being able to use your Watcher abilities in questing... umm, you absolutely can. Are you sure you played this game, or is this part of your 99% forget rate? Early in the game you "touch" a dead body hanging from a tree, which advances the main story. But then again, that tree is part of the current events content which you also claimed doesn't exist, so I honestly have no loving idea what you're carressingly doing.

 

 

I liked your post Zenbane it was an accident and I cant unlike it now...

 

Oh that was no accident *wink**wink*

[Guest BugsVendor]

Yes I read some of the earlier threads on here where people complained that the Watcher's ability to see the soul's of NPC Backers is irrelevant, but that proclamation makes absolutely no sense. If a character has the ability to touch souls then it sure does seem relevant for the game to allow... that character to touch a soul. I just ended up dismissing these types of complaints as people being jealous that some Backers have an in-game Avatar. The idea of "gamers being jealous" makes a lot more sense than the idea of, "soul touching is irrelevant in a game about soul touching."

 

As far as being able to use your Watcher abilities in questing... umm, you absolutely can. Are you sure you played this game, or is this part of your 99% forget rate? Early in the game you "touch" a dead body hanging from a tree, which advances the main story. But then again, that tree is part of the current events content which you also claimed doesn't exist, so I honestly have no loving idea what you're carressingly doing.

 

 

I liked your post Zenbane it was an accident and I cant unlike it now...

 

Oh that was no accident *wink**wink*

 

There is 1 quest with that medalion, some stuff with Sagani, but it never becomes part of the game play in any meaningful way. You never meet someone that give you a quest and start your reasoning with "lets see what watcher can do".  My experience was that once in a while there was a dialogue option and I went like "oh yeah I'm that watcher thing". But I just explored the city for quite a while and completely forgot about it. I know it's subjective but that's the way I felt. Also few moments when you do remember and try to roleplay a watcher like right after that dwarf lady the game gives you no opportunities to do so.

 

now we are even in likes :>

[Zenbane]

I agree with that assessment. Only I do not come to the conclusion that the entire game or storyline is utterly useless/irrelevant/meaningless. I just see it as room for improvement and since the base game is so fantastic, any enhancements Obsidian makes to expand the Watcher's abilities - features and storyline - will only serve to make a great game even greater. But that's my perspective of course, and the core of our disagreement.

 

But you are correct in terms of the Watcher's consistency at certain moments. For example, when in Defiance Bay, in order to investigate Eder's brothers whereabouts, we have to enlist the help of the local Records Keepers, who won't even talk to you until your local standing in the community is higher. My first thought was, "but I am a Watcher, let me just shake this guys hand and find out some info."

 

I see lots of room for growth, but this growth serves to enhance the fun as opposed to "saving the game from being useless" lol. Hey maybe the title of the next game could be: "PoE 2: Wrath of the Watcher" - where you go around town casting Sleep on citizens followed by your Watcher using her finger to "probe" peoples soul's in the most uncomfortable way possible. Secret quests and hidden treasure locations can be revealed only through strategic use of Watching finger probing. This should definitely be a thing.

[Fenixp]

I see. The entire "Watcher" story is the only part truly geared towards the Main Character.

Yup. The content flowed seamlessly from personal to epic which is definitely what I like about it. Also, that 99% of the information is not necessarily relevant to your character is a rather narrow viewpoint - the first act served to explore the semi-unique aspects of the setting, thus personal story, and that's why perhaps a lot of information doesn't seem relevant at first. However, the storyline sort of twists around and back on itself when you find out what should your character actually start doing aside from saving his/her hide. And that's the point where you should start discovering why reading every single piece of content should be useful to you - I'd find answering many questions posed by NPCs and by the game + the decision at the ending pretty damn hard if I didn't have the full scope of information. Thankfully, all of that information is provided troughout the game and there's only a small amount of quests where you'd need to make uninformed decisions. In fact, tight focus of the world, its lore and the main storyline is one of my favourite things about the game - just about all the information you are given is there to serve a purpose, you just need to connect the dots.

 

This characters created by backers are just so meaningless. Not really badly written or boring but just so irrelevant. So you can use your watcher abilities in this meaningless fashion but not in quests where it could be interesting. Just imagine investigating someone's character whether he is decent or evil person or if he is lying or being truthful and checking clues from his past lives to determine that. It never happens, so many obvious themes associated with powers you are given just never happen. It's disappointing. It doesn't mean it was a bad idea to begin with but just... well rushed to say the least.

Before I found they're written by the backers I thought they're an interesting way of exploring life on Eora unrelated to the protaginost. It's not like you couldn't ignore them if you didn't want to read that stuff, so... You know. Besides, the mechanic does actually get a proper use in White March.

 

Edit: Oh and Sagani was my favourite companion. In fact, I generally liked companions presented in Pillars a lot more than those in Baldur's Gate - companions in BG II had one strong character trait which got overplayed to the extreme. Sure, that makes memorable characters as the game hammers the point of "Jaheira is kind of an ass" so hard you can't forget it even if you wanted to, but Pillars of Eternity has characters with actual... Well, character. They're not just walking gimmicks, they feel like living beings. Sadly, living beings don't tend to be as memorable as walking gimmicks.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Fenixp

[CynicalP]

My take on POE -  I don't agree at all with the OP premise that the game was unfinished or rushed.  I was hooked with the opening sequence and initial area.  The beautiful artwork, the soundtrack, the voice work,  and dialogs reeled me right in.  However I stopped playing after the 1.03 patch with all the 'balanced' changes to  my character. So I put the game on the shelf until I felt Obsidian was finished with most of their balance changes.  Once Version 2.0 and the first part of the expansion came out I picked up the game again and  after about  180 hours I finished the main story and all the expansion areas.  I  wish I could say POE was better or equal experience of  the Baldur's gate games, but sadly I felt the main story was disappointing and the antagonist was just some vague memory up until the end of the game.  I really didn't have any burning desire to stop him.  In both Baldur gate  games I hated the main antagonists from both games and I couldn't wait to end their plots,  schemes, and lives. Those antagonists  haunted my steps throughout the game,  taunted my character, set ambushes,  and just plain a royal pain in the rear so by the time I reached them at the final showdown it was a very satisfying experience to deal out justice to their sad hides.  POE unfortunately just didn't capture that vibe. That would be my major gripe about the game.

 

POE did have some really interesting NPCs.  I too like Sagani,  She one my favorite characters as well as Eder, Aloth, and kana.  I didn't really like Durance as a person but he certainly was a very strong and interesting personality and his priest spells were really handy. The rest of the NPCs were meh.  

 

I enjoy the combat. I felt it ended rather quickly. In fact I felt bad for Kana cause by the time he could use one of his invocations the combat was already done. At least playing at normal difficultly. If it wasn't for his funny and positive personality I would have dumped him with someone more useful. He wasn't a bad offtank once I outfitted him with shield and sword and took talents to beef up his deflection.

 

POE was enjoyable experience overall.  I felt I received my money's worth from the game.  Not sure if I am motivated to replay thru the main game again, but I am looking forward to the second part of the expansion and the eventually sequel.  I just hope the sequel has a better story line and antagonist.

Edited December 4, 2015 by CynicalP

[brindle88]

It is a crowd funded game remember. They did it with a budget of 4 million.

 

They have created something pretty good here but there is ALOT of room for improvement. I would say obsidian now this.

 

With the profits they have made from this and if they crowd fund again pillars 2 may get a budget of 10 million plus. Then you will see possible an epic game in proportion with bg2.

[Ganrich]

It is a crowd funded game remember. They did it with a budget of 4 million.

 

They have created something pretty good here but there is ALOT of room for improvement. I would say obsidian now this.

 

With the profits they have made from this and if they crowd fund again pillars 2 may get a budget of 10 million plus. Then you will see possible an epic game in proportion with bg2.

I agree with this. People seem to forget baldurs gate 2 was a sequel. It had an engine the devs were familiar with to be built on. Also, Shadowrun Returns was a pretty mediocre affair, but I think Dragonfall and Hong Kong are great games. I think obsidian can really do something great with a sequel while using the Unity engine and tools they have built.

[brindle88]

 

It is a crowd funded game remember. They did it with a budget of 4 million.

They have created something pretty good here but there is ALOT of room for improvement. I would say obsidian now this.

With the profits they have made from this and if they crowd fund again pillars 2 may get a budget of 10 million plus. Then you will see possible an epic game in proportion with bg2.

I agree with this. People seem to forget baldurs gate 2 was a sequel. It had an engine the devs were familiar with to be built on. Also, Shadowrun Returns was a pretty mediocre affair, but I think Dragonfall and Hong Kong are great games. I think obsidian can really do something great with a sequel while using the Unity engine and tools they have built.

I just crunched some numbers. If they sell 750,000 copies of pillars (they have already sold nearly 600,000) thats around $27,000,000 they would have grossed, plus say sell 400,000 of the expansions that's another $14,000,000. That's a gross of over 40 mil.

 

And it only cost them 4 mil to make. Sorry it cost us 4 mil haha

[Ganrich]

Did you take into account Valve's 30% cut, steam sales (I believe it's been on sale a time or 2), etc.? I am unsure how Paradox has been compensated as a publisher since it was kickstarter and all that.

[brindle88]

Did you take into account Valve's 30% cut, steam sales (I believe it's been on sale a time or 2), etc.? I am unsure how Paradox has been compensated as a publisher since it was kickstarter and all that.

30%? Really ?

 

I would have thought around 10% would be more realistic, even less.

[Ganrich]

Yup, Valve takes 30%, I believe. It may be 33%. I can't remember. However, I know it is one or the other. Valve makes a killing on Steam.

[rheingold]

Expectations are crazy things when you think about them... Everyone's are different. Just like everyone's experiences are different.

Compounding the issue is the fact that the old ie games where not that similar, beyond the obvious, as in d&d rules, isometric,party based. But setting and story varied quite widely. Then some people played them purely for combat, some for the story etc, etc....

So while everyone had expectations that pillars would be a throwback to the old ie games, their experiences varied widely on what made an old ie game.

People should read or watch more movies

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect

[archangel979]

Did you take into account Valve's 30% cut, steam sales (I believe it's been on sale a time or 2), etc.? I am unsure how Paradox has been compensated as a publisher since it was kickstarter and all that.

He also counted way too many expansion sales and forgot out of those 750 000, 80 000 are backers. 

[brindle88]

 

Did you take into account Valve's 30% cut, steam sales (I believe it's been on sale a time or 2), etc.? I am unsure how Paradox has been compensated as a publisher since it was kickstarter and all that.

 

He also counted way too many expansion sales and forgot out of those 750 000, 80 000 are backers.

Baldurs gate and bg2 are still selling copies 14 years after they where released. Pillars won't be that succesful but will continue to sell well over a long period of time. I think my estimates where conservative for the main copy and the expansion. I'm not an expert on such things though but they have sold nearly 600k in only six months.

[CynicalP]

Expectations are crazy things when you think about them... Everyone's are different. Just like everyone's experiences are different.

Compounding the issue is the fact that the old ie games where not that similar, beyond the obvious, as in d&d rules, isometric,party based. But setting and story varied quite widely. Then some people played them purely for combat, some for the story etc, etc....

So while everyone had expectations that pillars would be a throwback to the old ie games, their experiences varied widely on what made an old ie game.

People should read or watch more movies

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_

 

 

 

 

That is true.   I felt Pillars met most of my expectations. It was the most recent game to capture the look and feel of an infinity engine game that I have played to date so I felt Obsidian lived up to their kickstarter promise.   Again my major gripe was the overall story and antagonist miss the mark of true excellence. My only other gripe would be since there was no XP rewarded for enemy deaths there were too many trash mob encounters that couldn't be avoided. I got past that and just killed every thing in my path. Otherwise I really liked the game. Doesn't make my list of all time favorite RPG experiences, but a worth while experience  regardless.

[PrimeJunta]

I really liked/like Pillars too, and from where I'm at it bears comparison with the IE games very well. Among them I'd rank it below PS:T and BG2 but above BG and IWD/2.

 

I still think the medium has potential for so much more though, and hope this mini-revival we've been seeing is here to last and not just a flash in the pan.

[CynicalP]

 

 

Did you take into account Valve's 30% cut, steam sales (I believe it's been on sale a time or 2), etc.? I am unsure how Paradox has been compensated as a publisher since it was kickstarter and all that.

He also counted way too many expansion sales and forgot out of those 750 000, 80 000 are backers.

Baldurs gate and bg2 are still selling copies 14 years after they where released. Pillars won't be that succesful but will continue to sell well over a long period of time. I think my estimates where conservative for the main copy and the expansion. I'm not an expert on such things though but they have sold nearly 600k in only six months.

 

 

 

RPGs usually have a long shelf life.  It's a niche market for sure and  since there isn't a over saturated amount of games out there dedicated RPG fans are willing to pick up an older titles just to get their next RPG fix.