Dark souls 3

[Cyseal]

I know that developers are a huge fan of Dark souls.

I'm really excited for DS3 and here are the news form the very Hidetaka Miyazaki
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dark-souls-3-interview-it-wouldnt-be-right-to-cont/1100-6432425/

[Namutree]

I like your profile picture.

[Qistina]

DS3 look promising...look like Bloodborne much...and now magic use mana

 

[Blarghagh]

Moved to the right forum.

[Qistina]

I can't help to think that Dark Souls series are just money grabbing game. As you can see how fast they can make one game to another...how hard to make this game really?

 

I don't think it is hard because they only need to create level designs and put bunch of enemies in it...the stories are just ambiguous rubbish, all characters are just muttering senseless dialogues, there's no narrative and they just repeat the same formula over and over...they just put descriptions on items and then let players theorize everything

 

Anyone can make such game...

[Cyseal]

Anyone can make such game...

 

I don't agree with this. I've tried to make such similar game and it's quite hard.

Fromsoft has writen their own engine also.

Also, there are more development teams. One, which is working on DS3 and another team which is working on their's unannounced project.

 

On characters side, I agree there could be some more depth in DS2. Dark souls characters are quire memorable and well written.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Cyseal

[Qistina]

 

Anyone can make such game...

 

I don't agree with this. I've tried to make such similar game and it's quite hard.

Fromsoft has writen their own engine also.

Also, there are more development teams. One, which is working on DS3 and another team which is working on their's unannounced project.

 

On characters side, I agree there could be some more depth in DS2. Dark souls characters are quire memorable and well written.

 

 

I don't mean the engine and programming, i mean the game, anyone can make similar game with similar concept. Obsidian can make similar game, what is so hard?

 

i. create some chracters and their dialogues

ii. make their concept art

iii. create levels and maps

iv. create enemies the player will fight

iv. profit

 

Since DS1, it is the same...the game is...

 

i. you start at a point

ii. you walk and fight monsters

iii. you meet some characters who talk and laugh

iv. you walk and get invaded

v. the end

 

You ever fail because you die and live again, you never make big decisions because nothing matters, you never have any special relationship with characters, all you need to do is walk and fight, walk and fight, walk and hear dialogues, walk and fight

Edited November 30, 2015 by Qistina

[Fenixp]

Well you're a game design expert again.

 

First of all, it's not the same "Since Dark Souls" - Dark Souls is predated by Demon's Souls, and From software worked on a bunch of similar games before, a niché nobody else can quite develop.

 

Second, you forget about the incredibly complex net of level design that Dark Souls is so widely praised for. You obviously don't understand the complexities of level and encounter design, of how to reward player, how to lure him and how to keep him tense. There's been pages upon pages written on the subject and yet, the moment lead designer of Dark Souls went on to work on Bloodborne, they ****ed a lot of this up in Dark Souls 2. Designing a game like this is an art.

 

There's quite a clever quote applicable on you, Qistina - "The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know." You have not even learned basics of game design so you're under the impression you know everything so I'd suggest actually going out of your way to at least learn those basics if you want to appreciate just how incredibly complex the issue is. Every ledge, every bridge, every enemy, weapon, piece of armor, every single object needs to be placed into the game world with a purpose and it took From software dozens of games to learn the level of game design they're at now to get all of these more or less right (*cough* Blighttown *Cough* Altho I would not put it past them to just want to troll players)

[Qistina]

Making Dark Souls level design is no different than using Doom editor...

 

In Dark Souls, your character can't swim, can't sneak, cannot go outside the path boundaries, there's no difference with making Doom map. Doom map is more complex, Dark Souls map is simple map with filler enemies.

[Fenixp]

Oh my god how can you even compare fairly open, maze-like Doom level design to intricate web of linear paths of Dark Souls? One is cut into individual levels while the other one ... Well, isn't for starters. One's using free saving system, the other one isn't. One's about reflexes and resource management, the other one is about patience and risk and reward. All of these things heavily influence level design. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking your personality here, but with every sentence you write, it's more and more clear you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. Please, just... Study up on the subject.

Have you even played Dark Souls? And if so, what can you tell me about level design of the tutorial if you feel like you're competent enough to speak on the subject?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Fenixp

[Qistina]

Like i mentioned, Dark Souls is just a game where you walk and kill everything, no difference than Doom. This kind of game is easy to make, you only provide maps and things on it.

 

Let talk about Dark Souls 1, your character start at the prison, then get out, then kill enemies, kill a boss, then moved to next area, talk to two characters who have few dialogues, then kill enemies, kill kill kill...then a cut scene with no dialogue, fighting a boss, then talk to a character who have few dialogues...then repeat...every areas have enemies to kill

 

Basically every areas are just maps with filler enemies, anyone can make this kind of game.

 

Compare with Dragon Age : Origin, there are narrative, cut scenes over cut scenes, characters who talk with each other, a drama...it is more complex to make than a games like above...

[Majek]

Yes, you are right. Souls games do need a dog to lick you clean of all that blood that sticks on you.

[Qistina]

I can make such game...i can make these characters right away...

 

i. A guy watching the sea

"Oh hi there, isn't it amazing? An endless sea...hahahahaah"

"Since you are here, how about we help each other? Yes? No?"

"Ah don't bother about me, i will just stay here watching the sea...i wish i could become a fish...hahahahaah"

 

ii. A guy siting doing nothing

"You are new here isn't it? Welcome..."

"What is it? You talk too much"

"Oh you want to know what happen and what to do? Well there are three places to go, each of them have gongs, hit the gongs, something will happen, there you go....hahahahahaaha"

"What? want to know more? Oh yes, the last place is dangerous you will likely die trying hahahahaahaha"

 

iii. Another guy siting doing nothing

"hmmmm hmmm hmmm...."

"uuuhh ooohhhhh"

"hwaaaargggh...oh i am sorry, i just fall a sleep...i am waiting for this cat to grow beard..."

"oh how long i have waited, this cat still don't grow beard"

 

iv. Smiths

"Don't bother me, i am working"

"Shoooo...."

"(tell about game mechanic to upgrade stuff)"

"whoaaaa that's a nice stuff you got, mind to give it to me?"

 

v. Gods

"I am your God, bow to me"

"Excellent, now go kill people for me"

 

vi. Random stranger

"Please let me out, i will reward you"

"Thank you, now you can buy my stuff"

"Do you hear about this and that, don't believe, it is all not true"

 

After i create all these characters with random dialogues, i place them on the map. Then i put in monsters, big monsters, here and there, put in some stuff...there you go, a game...

Edited November 30, 2015 by Qistina

[Fenixp]

Oh, so in other words, you have not noticed any of the nuance with which the tutorial area has been made. Oh and if you're trying to say that level design in Dark Souls is primitive by comparing it to Doom, you obviously have absolutely no clue about quality of level design in Doom either, but I digress. All right then, let's take a crack on how well do I remember the game:

 

- You start out in prison and the game sets the tone of desperate survival straight off the bat. The first thing you get is a corpse which you have to Pillage (dunno if it's just bad translation or deliberate choice on the word, but it works damn well as 'pillage' suggests a violent act) for a key to open prison. Here you get basic controls down: How to move, how to pick things up, how to use environmental objects. We're in the first room which has just a few objects in it and all of those objects already serve a purpose and work towards some sort of end, either in teaching player to play the game or in setting the game's tone.

 

- After leaving the cell, you are released into a narrow passage with some undead creatures who don't defend themselves. Using notes which are thrown randomly on the ground, the game is teaching you 2 things: 1) How to play itself since they contain tutorial messages, in this case, how to attack the undead 2) To notice the notes. These messages could have easily been displayed on the screen, but they're not. Why? Because the notes are an important part of communication between players, which plays an important role in all Souls games. In the very same hallway, you are able to see the creature you are going to fight later on behind bars where it can't harm you, with a corpse thrown trough the bars to suggest the monster is powerful. Dark Souls is big on this whole foreshadowing thing, and it'll constantly remind you that there's somewhere you have not been yet (room with the monster), challenges you have not managed to overcome (monster itself) All of that information, and even more, is tightly packed into a single hallway.

 

- At the end of the hallway, you are presented with a pond that you need to go trough, which the game uses to showcase how is movement of your character changed by passing trough liquid, and then there's a ladder which... Well, shows you how to climb ladders, obviously. One of the most important aspects of Dark Souls is that it's trying to be as fair as humanly possible - by showcasing you how does your character move in water, you are ensuring that later on, player doesn't run into a situation in which he'd need to fight a monster in water without knowing how does it function. Many of these tools used to teach player how to play are created in order for player to not even notice them, which is why *some* people will have trouble identifying them

 

- When you climb up the ladder, you are very clearly presented with your goal - you see a massive door framed by sunlight above it, two statues to the sides and bonfire in front of it. This area serves the purpose of showing you that you may interact with bonfires (and when you inevitably die, how do bonfires actually function) and to lure you into trying to find out what's behind the bloody door. You can notice more than just that while you're at it - desolate state of the place you're in and it's the first time player comes 'outside'.

 

- After opening the door and going forward for a bit, the monster which has been promised to you a few moments ago makes an appearance. For players who were not prepared for the encounter, this inevitably means the second part of bonfire tutorial - after you're killed and appear next to it. This is probably the only moment of Dark Souls which is deliberately unfair, designers want to kill you to show you how do checkpoints and respawning work in this game. Second time you enter the area, knowing you won't beat the boss (you actually can by the way, but most new players don't), you look around the place. What's the second most apparent thing you see? A torch, which is glowing and has a different color to most other things you can see in this room. And videogame players are like moths - they will immediately run towards the light when they're unsure. And notice an opening and run from the boss. I believe that here, the game teaches you that retreating is (almost) always an option, and that analyzing situation beyond just "baddie, kill" will inevitably help you.

 

- Passing trough the door, you encounter another hallway, and the hallway again has a point. It's a narrow hallway and at the end of it is an archer - dodging his arrows in such a narrow environment is difficult, so he will hit you a few times before you notice an opening to the left. In the opening, there's a shield on corpse. The game lets you do quick maths and tells you "Oh yeah, you can block using left button" Organically you figure out "Oh, arrows I can't avoid and a shield, I know what I'm supposed to do here!" and do it.

 

In this text, I've been trough the first 5 or so relatively small rooms in the game. All of them have a point, all of them serve a purpose, all of them work far beyond "Go and kill". And while From software is this efficient at tutoring the player without player even knowing about it, they're even better at designing the 'proper' game. The entire experience of Dark Souls is about learning, about patience and smart approach to situations. If you honestly believe that it's all about:

"i put in monsters, big monsters, here and there, put in some stuff...there you go, a game..."

Well, I'm glad my post served to show you how incredibly wrong you are ;-)

(and yes, I do realize I'm probably just wasting time with a troll here, but I enjoy writing up long blocks of texts)

 

Actually, here, have some bits in an easy to digest form on Mario, it's used as a good example on quite a few occasions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH2wGpEZVgE&ab_channel=ExtraCredits

 

(yeah, I'm just running aroud the boards, shilling for extra credits. What can I say, they have a lot of material in an easy to digest format good for use on public boards.)

Edited November 30, 2015 by Fenixp

[Cyseal]

quoting Qistina

I think this is just a crude concept and outline of a game. To wrap it up in an engine is completely another road and burden to take.

 

Also I would like to make this topic an constructive talk about Dark souls 3 and general DS universe.

Let's not this to turn to flaming or trolling another's opinions back and fort.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Cyseal

[Qistina]

I am thinking From Software just want to grab money because they can make games so fast, it is almost like just just copy and paste everything, then sell.

 

First Dark Souls, and then they make Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne, these two are not much different, then now Dark Souls 3 look like Bloodborne...all these three games are so fastly made

 

The reason why they can make games so fast is because they only repeat the same formula and then just fill in everything

[Qistina]

You see this is Bloodborne

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GJmO1hh4sg

 

And this is Dark Souls 3

 

 

How fast From Software making games? I still remember the hype about Dark Souls 2, then Bloodborne, and now Dark Souls 3....So you must understand why i feel they make these games just for money grabbing, it is so easy to make if you just recycle everything..they make 4 games in 5 years

Edited December 1, 2015 by Qistina

[Namutree]

I am thinking From Software just want to grab money because they can make games so fast, it is almost like just just copy and paste everything, then sell.

 

First Dark Souls, and then they make Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne, these two are not much different, then now Dark Souls 3 look like Bloodborne...all these three games are so fastly made

 

The reason why they can make games so fast is because they only repeat the same formula and then just fill in everything

So long as the games are fun does it really matter? Personally, I've never played any of the DS series; so I've no need to defend it, but I don't see what's wrong with a simple repeated formula so long as the formula still works. 

 

One of my greatest gaming frustrations is that Nintendo's Star Fox series didn't remain consistent but instead were more experimental. As a result; Star Fox 64 never really got the great sequel it deserved. 

[Fenixp]

How fast From Software making games? I still remember the hype about Dark Souls 2, then Bloodborne, and now Dark Souls 3....So you must understand why i feel they make these games just for money grabbing, it is so easy to make if you just recycle everything..they make 4 games in 5 years

Actually, Dark Souls was released 2011, Dark Souls 2 2014 and Bloodborne 2015 so that's 3 games in 5 years. Thing is, Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne were both in development since 2012 and were developed simultaneously by different parts of the team, so it's not like they finished Dark Souls 2 and then started working on Bloodborne - essentially, that's 2 games in 5 years + 1 other game developed by a different part of the company. I'm pretty sure work on Dark Souls 3 began after release of DS2, so that would give us 2-3 years release cycle (Demon's Souls was released 2009). And no, they're not recycling everything, that would suggest using all the same assets in all their games which is quite simply not true, Bloodborne even features entirely different setting (and a very smart and imaginative setting to boot, it's quite apparent you have not played it if you're willing to call it "recycled everything")

 

As for them creating similar games, I mean... Show me another game like Dark Souls. There literally isn't anything else like it. There's a bunch of Dark Souls wannabes like Lords of the Fallen or Witcher 2, but both fail at imitating Dark Souls, which should only show you how difficult it is. So why should a company stop doing what they do best, what they obviously enjoy doing and what gives it a completely unique place on the market?

 

Also I would like to make this topic an constructive talk about Dark souls 3 and general DS universe.

Let's not this to turn to flaming or trolling another's opinions back and fort.

Oh don't worry I'm quitting for the most part :-P We still need more info on Dark Souls 3 to really talk about it tho Edited December 1, 2015 by Fenixp

[HoonDing]

[Bartimaeus]

Actually, Dark Souls was released 2011, Dark Souls 2 2014 and Bloodborne 2015 so that's 3 games in 5 years. Thing is, Dark Souls 2 and Bloodborne were both in development since 2012 and were developed simultaneously by different parts of the team, so it's not like they finished Dark Souls 2 and then started working on Bloodborne - essentially, that's 2 games in 5 years + 1 other game developed by a different part of the company.

That, and Dark Souls 2 was made by the B team while Bloodborne was being handled by the A team - which would perhaps explain (to me) why Dark Souls 2 sucked so hard. Loved the first game, please shoot me in the face if I ever even consider trying to play through the second again.

[Qistina]

Alright...we'll see...judging from videos i watched, it is the same, just maps with filler enemies...and now it look like Bloodborne

[Fenixp]

That, and Dark Souls 2 was made by the B team while Bloodborne was being handled by the A team - which would perhaps explain (to me) why Dark Souls 2 sucked so hard. Loved the first game, please shoot me in the face if I ever even consider trying to play through the second again.

Dark Souls 2 was fine, look at Lords of the Fallen if you want to see how can a Dark Souls-like game fail. Then again I suppose DS2 bore the name of Dark Souls franchise...

[Majek]

There was no B team, there was just the team that was available. 

[Bartimaeus]

Dark Souls 2 was fine, look at Lords of the Fallen if you want to see how can a Dark Souls-like game fail. Then again I suppose DS2 bore the name of Dark Souls franchise...

Yeah, I don't really care how Dark Souls-y or not a non-Dark Souls game is...

 

And I would very much disagree with Dark Souls 2 being "fine": Dark Souls 2 was like...if you took the combat of Dark Souls 1, slowed it down like 25-33%, made most every weapon shorter and slower and consequently more difficult and unfun to use (so much so that I literally never found a single weapon I actually enjoyed using like I did in Dark Souls 1), and you replaced what felt like roughly half of the bosses in the game with Iron Giant-esque bosses: giant (i.e. slow) humanoid bosses that are oh so predictable and not very fun to fight when facing the close to that same boss for the umpteenth time. Probably forgetting some other stuff, but yeah, I'd rate the entire experience as being pretty awful.