Multiclass talents - The good, the bad, and the ugly?

[Boeroer]

I just had the following idea: why not let other classes pick one (just one) original ability from another class. So, for example, one could choose to pick Lay on Hands OR Zealous Focus OR Faith and Conviction and so on at the appropriate level (or maybe original lvl +1). Or choose carnage OR Frenzy OR Barbaric Yell. That would lead to very flexible builds and still be a unique system - no real multiclassing (that messes everything up). You don't even need to invent new "multiclass" talents. Just define which one could be picked by other classes at certain levels. Fighter with carnage, Chanter with Flames of Devotion - such stuff.

 

edit: Yes, a classless system would be my dream, but classes are also ok.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

I really hate the cross-class talents. They dilute the class concepts without making genuinely interesting hybrid characters possible. It's a halfway-measure, intended to placate the people clamoring for multiclassing without actually doing it, just like lockpick XP.

 

Either do multiclassing properly or don't do it at all -- or, if you like, get rid of classes altogether and make everything available for everyone, so you can build exactly the kind of character you want.

 

I just had the following idea: why not let other classes pick one (just one) original ability from another class. So, for example, one could choose to pick Lay on Hands OR Zealous Focus OR Faith and Conviction and so on at the appropriate level (or maybe original lvl +1). Or choose carnage OR Frenzy OR Barbaric Yell. That would lead to very flexible builds and still be a unique system - no real multiclassing (that messes everything up). You don't even need to invent new "multiclass" talents. Just define which one could be picked by other classes at certain levels. Fighter with carnage, Chanter with Flames of Devotion - such stuff.

 

edit: Yes, a classless system would be my dream, but classes are also ok.

I'd rather have multiclasses than classless.

Reminds me too much of Skyrim, even tho it was fun there was no tactical depth.

Also in PoE it doesn'tr make any sense, since you have a party with up to 6 chars and can put together so many classes.

Tbh. multiclassing would probably **** up the fun fo many people since a lot complained about MC in Baldur's Gate.

[AndreaColombo]

IIRC, Josh did say something along the lines of true multi-classing being out of scope for PoE, but something they would like to do for a sequel. It's a hard thing to balance and do right, but could open up a whole world of interesting character builds.

 

However, I do like multi-class talents in PoE. They put some spice in talent selection and allow for character builds that belong to a class but are at least flavored with another; the issue, from my perspective, is understanding why some of those talents don't cut it and come up with potential solutions in hope the devs are keeping an eye on the thread

 

I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that mutli-class talents should retain the full power they are mirroring. Some of them would remain "circumstantial", as in only viable for specific character builds; they'd just be better (e.g. Novice's Suffering.) Others would be all around pretty good to have, however. I mean, who wouldn't take Outlander's Frenzy if it was the equivalent of Frenzy (including 1/encounter uses)? It would be a pretty good DPS booster. Too good, perhaps?

 

Talents like Enigma's Charm, Rhymer's Summon, and Acolyte's Radiance would remain problematic. I still think making the latter two scale with level would be an elegant solution (plus make Rhymer's Summon have a quicker cooldown of, say, 8-10 seconds max.) Enigma's Charm I just have no idea how to change in a way that makes it attractive.

 

Changing Constant Recovery (Fighter's ability) and Veteran's Recovery (multi-class talent) to a % of max Endurance would be a very good change, imho.

Edited December 1, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[PrimeJunta]

Let me expand on this a bit.

 

In my view, the whole point of any character-building system in any role-playing game is differentiation. You should be able to build characters that produce different gameplay experiences. Ideally these differences would be qualitative rather than quantitative; if one character is obviously and unambiguously "the best" it eclipses the others. Look at Arcanum: magic is so overpowered most players never get around to playing technology, and thereby the miss out on the best part of the game, namely, crafting.

 

You can do this in a class-based or classless system. However, they have to be designed differently. Classless systems should have "talent trees" which reward specialization -- your characters start in the same place, and diverge as you go deeper into the specialization trees. Class-based systems differentiate by giving each class different inherent capabilities, and then letting players pick things to support them.

 

The cross-class talents go against this IMO. They dilute the class-based design, making gameplay more "same-y." If everyone can get an Aura, go into a Frenzy, Sneak Attack, or dazzle undead with holy energy, you've just removed a central defining characteristic of the paladin, barbarian, rogue, and priest. Even if these effects are weaker than what the real thing could do.

 

True multiclassing, OTOH, is a different sack of beans. Picking a level in a different class already carries a trade-off: you're getting one class's base abilities, but deferring acquisition of your main class's high-level abilities by one level. If the high-level abilities are as attractive as they should be (which isn't always the case!) this should give you pause.

 

Morever, this can make "weaker" classes more attractive. Pure AD&D thieves are kind of derp despite their great stealth and utility abilities, as they're not much good in combat, but dual- or multiclassed they're freakin' awesome. The Pillars rogue is similarly anemic -- yeah, great single-target damage but in a game based around mobs, why would you rather have that than great CC, great AoE damage, or great durability? -- but if I could mix a level or two of it into, say, a fighter, ranger, paladin, or even barbarian then that'd be kinda awesome.

 

I.e., I stand by what I said earlier -- the cross-class talents are a half-measure. They shouldn't have done it. Instead, put that thought and energy into "proper" multiclassing. If they can't do it in Pillars 1 or the expansions, then do it in the sequel.

[Boeroer]

I agree.

 

I love the freedom of classless systems. That's because I like to do builds and with a classless system the different combinations of skills are nearly endless.

But as you said: you need deeper skill trees for that or every char will look the same somehow because everbody will only cherry-pick the best skills - if you don't have trees that force you to specialize a bit.

 

But I also like the restrictions that systems with classes give you. You can try to be very creative in order to break the inteneded role that class is supposed to play. ANd it's great fun to find working builds that don't do what the commmon conception of a class does. And therefore I welcome cross-class-talents because they allow you to bend the rules a bit. They are only bad and break the system if there are too many. If you could just pick one - but that one could be any of a foreign class at the appropriate level -  that would be ok for me. It would open up so many possibilities without breaking the class system.

 

But that's just my personal gusto.

[evilcat]

Anything which is /rest i havent use, since it is too problematic and never know if it is the right time.

So only passives, and /encounter are option, as long as effect is good enought.

APPRENTICE'S SNEAK ATTACK - it is the next dps talent, so it is ok. Also could take it early.

GALLANT'S FOCUS - i put it on Chanter, which gives larer area. It is like having extra effect on chants. Fair enought

RUNNER'S WOUNDING SHOT - need to try on cipher.

 

The rest so far looks not interesting enought.

 

Some of this abilities could be made stronger and nothing will changed. Especiall /encounter abilities. Since being able to cast missiles is not that big deal. Generally as soon as something looks OP it is finally good enought.

 

Some of abilities could get specific class copy. Like chanter being able to summon something for free would make class more interesting. Wizard being able to cast missiles /encounter could be helpful at low levels.

Edited December 28, 2015 by evilcat

[Boeroer]

When they all become 1/encounter with patch 3.0 they will be all OK I guess. Acolyte's Radiance still needs a buff. It's too weak. And Novice's Suffering has to be altered so that the initial unarmed bonus that you get is considered as base damage.