Attacks in Paris

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Nice one , WW1 has such profoudly, evocative poems...

 

 

 

I posted part  of this poem a few months earler...people on the thread were a little concerned and said it was depressing

 

But Wilfred Owen captures the reality of that era and war perfectly accurately, you know  he was killed 1 week before the armistice ...1 week and he would have survived   

 

Yep, and his mum got the telegram telling her of his death on Armistice Day while everyone was celebrating!

Edited November 19, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[Malcador]

Russia has an easier time getting targets, working with Syria and other useful troops on ground. But even that aside, they actually seem to be trying to solve a problem.

 

Then again the US might enjoy letting that fire burn, not like either side bleeding is bad for them.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

You need to accept that your culture is just as horrible and nasty as everyone elses in the world, that it was based on lies, and that at the end of the day Nationalism is Bull****.

 

 

Implying that every the foundation of any civilization is meaningless, heritage meaning nothing and cohesion of a society is not based common virtues and values of it's people. 

 

 

National identity as we understand it hasn't really been a thing for much of human history. Implying that a rejection of nationalism is synonymous with a rejection of the basic building blocks of society is woefully ignorant at best, and outright manipulative at worst.

 

 

Your claim, prove it.

 

//EDIT: Wait, what am i quoting here? Did you edit your post?

//EDIT2: nvm

 

As you should prove your claim to be fair.  Saying that nationalism is needed for social cohesion sounds a lot like saying religion is needed for morality.  I could go into how while humans have a drive to join together on the small scale like you said it doesn't really work on the large scale, the history of it such as how England and France would go to war despite the fact that their leaders had more in common with each other than they did with their people (the nobility of England being Norman after all), and the definition of just what nationalism actually means but I am at work at the moment so don't have the time unfortunately so will hope someone else will and instead post this poem that I feel is apt to this situation both in our conversation and what is going on in the world:

 

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,

Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,

Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,

And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,

But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;

Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots

Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

 

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling

Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,

But someone still was yelling out and stumbling

And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—

Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,

As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

 

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,

He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

 

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace

Behind the wagon that we flung him in,

And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,

His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood

Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud

Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est

Pro patria mori.

 

 

The argument was that all cultures have done nasty things, they're built on lies and nationalism is BS, of which one can easily see what it implies, which in turn i called you out on. What's the alternative based on those presumptions? Socialism? lol. Globalism? lol. No matter where you look in the alternatives, it will either require a strong tyrannical leader or ethos to be enforced.

 

Point being that it's always nationalism that's singled out as a sin, or even anything that closely resembling it, even when all other modern ideologies stemming from the enlightment with equal and if not worse, results.

 

Nice poem though. I liked it.

 

 

 

 

National identity as we understand it hasn't really been a thing for much of human history. Implying that a rejection of nationalism is synonymous with a rejection of the basic building blocks of society is woefully ignorant at best, and outright manipulative at worst.

 

 

Your claim, prove it.

 

 

What's there to prove? It's self-evident for anybody with even the most cursory history knowledge.

 

On the other hand, I'm not really seeing much proof for your implied claim that national identity is necessary for people to have a mutual heritage and a cohesive set of values.

 

 

Self-evident, my ass. If you want to deconstruct nations in modern times you better deliver.

[BruceVC]

Russia has an easier time getting targets, working with Syria and other useful troops on ground. But even that aside, they actually seem to be trying to solve a problem.

 

Then again the US might enjoy letting that fire burn, not like either side bleeding is bad for them.

 

How are they trying to solve the problem? Airstrikes cannot defeat ISIS...this is something that has been said time and time again

 

If Russia really wants to solve the ISIS problem they must deploy ground troops, we need " boots on the ground " to defeat ISIS 

[Meshugger]

Good news, everyone! They got the bastard: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12004756/Paris-attacks-Abdelhamid-Abaaoud-police-France-terrorist-Islamic-State-flight-live.html

 

 

Abdelhamid-Abaaoud may be dead, but now comes the tricky part on how on earth did he get back to europe, how did he organize it, and how did he allocate the resources for the logistics required.

[Qistina]

Long time ago i heard Osama ben Laden is dead....but really?

[Raithe]

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If Cameron wants to scare off terrorists, all he has to do is **** the pig again.

[Meshugger]

...and as usual, the EU tackles the problem behind ISIS in Europe.

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6110_en.htm

 

Either dumb ****, evil **** or both. But they are ****.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

The argument was that all cultures have done nasty things, they're built on lies and nationalism is BS, of which one can easily see what it implies, which in turn i called you out on. 

 

 

It implies nothing. You can be a patriot and want to have nothing to do with nationalism. Or, as somebody so succintly put it once:

 

"I like my country. I have occasionally wanted to kill everyone in it and burn it to the ground, but I consider that feeling a necessary part of patriotism. If you have never actually hated your country, then you probably don't understand your country. Therefore your love for it has little meaning."

[Malcador]

How are they trying to solve the problem? Airstrikes cannot defeat ISIS...this is something that has been said time and time again

 

If Russia really wants to solve the ISIS problem they must deploy ground troops, we need " boots on the ground " to defeat ISIS 

They are trying to solve a problem, and they have ground elemens working with them, Syrian army and Iranian troops (I think). Might be messing up ISIS, might be messing up Syrian rebels or both. Since ISIS blew up their plane, they may decide to work ISIS over a bit more as they probably are a more competent threat to Assad than the rebels.

[Sakai]

 

How are they trying to solve the problem? Airstrikes cannot defeat ISIS...this is something that has been said time and time again

 

If Russia really wants to solve the ISIS problem they must deploy ground troops, we need " boots on the ground " to defeat ISIS 

They are trying to solve a problem, and they have ground elemens working with them, Syrian army and Iranian troops (I think). Might be messing up ISIS, might be messing up Syrian rebels or both. Since ISIS blew up their plane, they may decide to work ISIS over a bit more as they probably are a more competent threat to Assad than the rebels.

 

Trust me, Putin is not trying to solve anything. He couldn't care less about Syria, ISIS, or anyone else. This is mostly a political move to gain some support which he is losing every day in Russia. And the fact that he's a maniac with a Napoleon complex. He failed in Ukraine, so now he wants another triumphant little war.

[BruceVC]

 

 

How are they trying to solve the problem? Airstrikes cannot defeat ISIS...this is something that has been said time and time again

 

If Russia really wants to solve the ISIS problem they must deploy ground troops, we need " boots on the ground " to defeat ISIS 

They are trying to solve a problem, and they have ground elemens working with them, Syrian army and Iranian troops (I think). Might be messing up ISIS, might be messing up Syrian rebels or both. Since ISIS blew up their plane, they may decide to work ISIS over a bit more as they probably are a more competent threat to Assad than the rebels.

 

Trust me, Putin is not trying to solve anything. He couldn't care less about Syria, ISIS, or anyone else. This is mostly a political move to gain some support which he is losing every day in Russia. And the fact that he's a maniac with a Napoleon complex. He failed in Ukraine, so now he wants another triumphant little war.

 

I tend to agree with this insight 

[Malcador]

Trust me, Putin is not trying to solve anything. He couldn't care less about Syria, ISIS, or anyone else. This is mostly a political move to gain some support which he is losing every day in Russia. And the fact that he's a maniac with a Napoleon complex. He failed in Ukraine, so now he wants another triumphant little war.

Isn't Syria being friendly to Russia in their interest ? Seemed to be their motivation for bombing everyone not Assad, so to speak. Still, have to say he's done more with his theater than the US has, advantage of having ground troops that are somewhat reliable and all.

[Sakai]

 

Trust me, Putin is not trying to solve anything. He couldn't care less about Syria, ISIS, or anyone else. This is mostly a political move to gain some support which he is losing every day in Russia. And the fact that he's a maniac with a Napoleon complex. He failed in Ukraine, so now he wants another triumphant little war.

Isn't Syria being friendly to Russia in their interest ? Seemed to be their motivation for bombing everyone not Assad, so to speak. Still, have to say he's done more with his theater than the US has, advantage of having ground troops that are somewhat reliable and all.

 

It's not "their", it's just Putin. He's basically a dictator at this point. And i imagine most of his interests are to stay in power as long as he can, and to stick it to the West, just because. If being friends with Syria achieves one of those, then great. But as soon as it's not, he'll be out of Syria the same instant.

[Malcador]

Hm ok, just thought what with the naval base there, Syria not being a failed state would work for Russia. Fair enough though, maybe he's just decided to troll the US and lackeys, heh.

[Sakai]

Hm ok, just thought what with the naval base there, Syria not being a failed state would work for Russia. Fair enough though, maybe he's just decided to troll the US and lackeys, heh.

Most likely, as i said, it's the same as with Ukraine. Economic situation is getting worse every day, so he needs to do something. He can't fix the economy because in his 15 years in power he didn't built anything, the country is pretty much dependent on oil, so the only other option is a small war. Distract people, give them some kind of "enemy" to think about. And it's perfect, especially with ISIS attacking our plane and now Paris. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Sakai

[Hurlshort]

It is refreshing to have some honest criticisms about Russia on these forums.  All conversations used to be dominated by propagandists.  

[Qistina]

Don't forget China....

 

USA plan is to overthrow Syrian government that is Assad, then put in puppet government...next messing up SEA, either SEA support USA or against USA...if against USA then similar thing happen here, Islamic revolution by ISIS or "new name" Islamic terrorist, then put in puppet government...then move on attacking China and Russia....then NWO...

 

It will be before or after 2020....

 

Don't you guys see that already?

Edited November 19, 2015 by Qistina

[Sakai]

Don't forget China....

 

USA plan is to overthrow Syrian government that is Assad, then put in puppet government...next messing up SEA, either SEA support USA or against USA...if against USA then similar thing happen here, Islamic revolution by ISIS or "new name" Islamic terrorist, then put in puppet government...then move on attacking China and Russia....then NWO...

 

It will be before or after 2020....

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." 

[Qistina]

 

Don't forget China....

 

USA plan is to overthrow Syrian government that is Assad, then put in puppet government...next messing up SEA, either SEA support USA or against USA...if against USA then similar thing happen here, Islamic revolution by ISIS or "new name" Islamic terrorist, then put in puppet government...then move on attacking China and Russia....then NWO...

 

It will be before or after 2020....

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." 

 

 

Do you know how important my country is? There is no USA military base here....the only country in SEA having no USA military base....should USA want to attack China, USA must make sure my country will not become a thorn.....

[Hurlshort]

I don't know how you can possibly look at US foreign policy and assume they have any idea what they are doing.

 

edit:  Attack China?  They are economically tied at the hip, what a terrible idea that would be.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Hurlshot

[Sakai]

Do you know how important my country is? There is no USA military base here....the only country in SEA having no USA military base....should USA want to attack China, USA must make sure my country will not become a thorn.....

What i'm saying is that it is unlikely that there's a global conspiracy. Most actions of politicians can be explained either by greed or stupidity. And USA is not going to attack Malaysia, that's ridiculous. 

[Qistina]

Oh look...how many are there USA military bases in Middle East? For what? It's to for attacking Russia....

 

 

oh look, where is my country? It is "below" China.......

 

[Malcador]

It is refreshing to have some honest criticisms about Russia on these forums.  All conversations used to be dominated by propagandists.  

Kind of funny when it's refreshing as it's stuff you agree with, but this isn't new. Plenty of posters have been all over Russia around and even before Crimea, and the opposition was usually oby (guy winding up usual windbags here).