Attacks in Paris

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Hezbollah officially condemns the attack. Hezbollah.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hezbollah-chief-lebanon-denounces-paris-attacks-184742949.html

 

Which shouldn't be surprising considering both ISIIS and Hezbollah hate each other more than they hate the Crusaders.

 

I fail to see how this is surprising at all. Pretty much everyone around the world is condemning the attack. Hezbollah is in government together with Lebanese Christian parties, Lebanon has good relations with France... They are probably as disgusted as everyone else, and with literally no reason to not condemn the attack.

 

Hezballah disgusted by terrorism, that's a good one.

 

well, it's easy to see why hezbollah would be disgusted by terrorists who recently targeted hezbollah in southern lebanon.  in fact, pretty much any attack on a terrorist group is decried as state-sponsored terrorism perpetrated by ________________.  fill in blank with great britain (particularly if we are speaking o' the ira as victims) or israel or the USA or your choice o' state. 

 

terrorism is often presented as a matter o' perspective. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yes Gromnir makes some good points but there is also another consideration. The ME is a complicated place due to the  political and religious alliances, historical ties and general different views that some countries have on important topics ....like this Oil Price war that Saudi is insisting on 

 

We need to realize that certain groups and ideological blocks in the ME we need to see them as operating in a grey world of judgement ...they shouldn't really be judged on strict Western views. For example a few years ago I believed Iran under there older  regime was the greatest threat to the region...now they have become an ally of the West in an interesting and unexpected wat

 

Hezbollah like Syria are sustained by Iran and for the Iranians by far the greatest threat to  there influence is now ISIS, they are seriously impacting two key Iranian allies in both Syria and Iraq

 

And of course Hezbollah realizes this and they do understand how to manage public perception so when they say " jihadist " threat they mean ISIS which the whole region is opposed to and in this case they right...ISIS is the current and most pressing enemy 

[Qistina]

 

My country have holidays for ALL religions...Eid, Chrismas, Wesak, Deepavali, ect you name it...Malaysia have a lot of holidays

 

Do western countries have holidays for Muslims?

in Gromnir's country (well, we sorta have dual citizenship) a christian can convert to islam and celebrate any religious holiday they wish to without fear o' being accused and convicted of apostasy.

 

am thinking we win.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[Gromnir]

a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

...

 

am not sure what you believe you prove with your links.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I would consider Malaysia a good example of a Muslim country that is perfectly functional.....didn't you have issues with presidential corruption?

 

Now please understand I don't mean to criticize your constitution but it seems strange to insist that people must say they are religious ? What if you not, why would that mean you cant contribute meaningfully towards Malaysian society so what I'm asking is how is being religious something that benefits your economy or political stability

 

Also you say that  Science is important but what when Science and Religion clash , who wins ?

 

 

We don't have president, but we follow British style of democracy, parliament with royals at the head. Which countries don't have corrupt politicians?

 

You must have a religion to become Malaysian. It doesn't matter what religion, but you must believe in God. It is because when you say you belong to a religion you are bound to that religion morality, culture and way of life, which means you are not deuchbags, yes atheists are deuchbags. If you are Christian, i know you are bound to Christian morality, so it is easier to make business with, i mean i know where you stand. You don't have to be religious, but if there are problems with you we simply refer you to your priests and asking their opinions.

 

If you are an atheist it will be a problem. Malaysia a multicultural country, Malays are only 50% now and Muslims 60%.

 

I love Science vs religion debate, but now i just don't have the mood.

 

Okay thanks for explaining, I am not trying to attack your culture or country as I do consider Malaysia a success story but I must say the whole reasoning behind the point " you must be religious as we believe  religious people are easier to understand and manage " is very strange because it makes no sense 

 

I am an atheist and my commitment to my country and our success has nothing to do with religion but is based on a belief I love my country and want it to succeed so for example I pay my taxes

 

But anyway we can agree to disagree...if this works for you guys then thats a good thing  

[Qistina]

a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

...

 

am not sure what you believe you prove with your links.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

lol where you hear that? No one being executed in Malaysia, in fact one ex Muslim won the case in the court to become a Christian

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

Edited November 15, 2015 by Qistina

[BruceVC]

 

Some of you are big Snowden admirers : http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-show-u-s--surveillance-of-islamic-state-may-be--going-dark-203103709.html# We should also thank Apple and Google for not cooperating with the government any more.

Oh yeah, let's turn the whole west into the incarnation of 1984. I think Jefferson would be proud now...

 

Snowden is a traitor and betrayed his country.... and he did reveal how the NSA have the ability to monitor most social media so now maybe certain extremist  groups may not use Facebook or Twitter as a way to communicate but I imagine this would have happened eventually so I don't think we can blame him for this ?

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

...

 

am not sure what you believe you prove with your links.

 

HA! Good Fun!

lol where you hear that? No one being executed in Malaysia, in fact one ex Muslim won the case in the court to become a Christian

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

Do not get into "political" debates with Gromnir. Sooner or later he will make you question either yours or his sanity ;-)

[Qistina]

Okay thanks for explaining, I am not trying to attack your culture or country as I do consider Malaysia a success story but I must say the whole reasoning behind the point " you must be religious as we believe  religious people are easier to understand and manage " is very strange because it makes no sense 

 

I am an atheist and my commitment to my country and our success has nothing to do with religion but is based on a belief I love my country and want it to succeed so for example I pay my taxes

 

But anyway we can agree to disagree...if this works for you guys then thats a good thing

 

 

It is because in Malaysia there are too many races, too many cultures and too many religions. i don't bother to tell you about history, but today this country known as Malaysia is a multicultural country. Malays are Muslims, Indians are Hindus or Christians or Muslims, Chinese are Buddhist or Christians or Confucious or Muslim or whatever, Punjabi are Sikh or Muslim or Christian, Portuguese are Christians or Muslims, there are also indegenious peoples and they are mix of Muslim, Christian and their old animistic belief...

 

So, it is easier if you said you're belong to certain faction/religion, rather than atheist. Let say a Muslim have a problem with a Hindu, the problem is easier to solve diplomatically by meeting both Muslim cleric and a Hindu priest. But atheists don't have allegience, it make things harder, and atheists are deuchbags like i say because they always think they are smarter and coolest than anyone else. There are atheists here of course but no one bother as long as they don't make trouble

 

It is not as simply as generalizing a country and it's people...i can't generalize Americans....there are white, black, hispanic, native, asian, muslim, chistian, hindu and whatever Americans isn't it? As an American you should know how hard to maintain peace between all the factions. My country is a secular Muslim country, America is a secular Christian country, so what's the difference?

Edited November 15, 2015 by Qistina

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

Some of you are big Snowden admirers : http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-show-u-s--surveillance-of-islamic-state-may-be--going-dark-203103709.html# We should also thank Apple and Google for not cooperating with the government any more.

Oh yeah, let's turn the whole west into the incarnation of 1984. I think Jefferson would be proud now...

Snowden is a traitor and betrayed his country.... and he did reveal how the NSA have the ability to monitor most social media so now maybe certain extremist groups may not use Facebook or Twitter as a way to communicate but I imagine this would have happened eventually so I don't think we can blame him for this ?

In EU he is considered a hero who did risk everything so others can still enjoy one of the basic human rights, which is right to privacy.

[Gromnir]

 

a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

...

 

am not sure what you believe you prove with your links.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

lol where you hear that? No one being executed in Malaysia, in fact one ex Muslim won the case in the court to become a Christian

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

 

did you read your link?  loy were forced into hiding and, "In a majority verdict delivered on 30 May 2007, the Federal Court rejected her appeal.[7] Her appeal was dismissed 2-1 by Chief Justice Tun Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim and Datuk Alauddin Mohd Sheriff."

 

but seriously, do you genuine wanna claim that apostasy is Not criminalized in malaysia and that execution is a final sentence for those who not repent?  we can quote the law if you need help.  

 

clear missing point however. the loy situation would never be an issue here in the USA, or virtual any western nation.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Qistina]

 

 

a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

...

 

am not sure what you believe you prove with your links.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

lol where you hear that? No one being executed in Malaysia, in fact one ex Muslim won the case in the court to become a Christian

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

 

did you read your link?  loy were forced into hiding and, "In a majority verdict delivered on 30 May 2007, the Federal Court rejected her appeal.[7] Her appeal was dismissed 2-1 by Chief Justice Tun Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim and Datuk Alauddin Mohd Sheriff."

 

but seriously, do you genuine wanna claim that apostasy is Not criminalized in malaysia and that execution is a final sentence for those who not repent?  we can quote the law if you need help.  

 

clear missing point however. the loy situation would never be an issue here in the USA, or virtual any western nation.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You said ealier apostates are being EXECUTED in Malaysia, the fact is no one being executed and there are many apostates won their case in the court.

 

Of course she have to hide from the brutal angry Muslims sharpening their sword and shouting "Allahuakbar!" isn't it?

[HoonDing]

 

"The church that being raid is because they against the law, they publish their new Malay version of Bible to convert Muslims into Christianity. That's why they got raid by the police. Your country will do the same if any mosques in your country are against your country law isn't it?"

 

lol

Look to be fair you can't judge these types of perceived  strange or unreasonable decisions by countries like Malaysia  ...I understand they seem strange but these are countries are ruled by religious doctrine and modern laws

 

Its fine, we don't have to understand or agree with them but its there decision. As long as they don't export terrorism or have tens of thousands of immigrants wanting to get to Europe its not a big deal 

 

Just reminded myself that in Singapore you get caned for throwing chewing gum on the street.

 

[Gromnir]

what we actual said were the following:a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210

 

and again, how can you be missing the point?  apostasy is not criminalized in the USA. loy would not need fight and lose her appeal.  she would not need go into hiding.  she could be whatever religion she so desired w/o fear o' criminalization.  

 

you suggest that western media is making malaysia look bad?  w/o the recent airline troubles, we suspect most westerners would have a hard time pinpointing malaysia on a map, and am certain most westerners is unaware o' the common freedoms they have that would be denied to them in malaysia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

"The church that being raid is because they against the law, they publish their new Malay version of Bible to convert Muslims into Christianity. That's why they got raid by the police. Your country will do the same if any mosques in your country are against your country law isn't it?"

 

lol

Look to be fair you can't judge these types of perceived  strange or unreasonable decisions by countries like Malaysia  ...I understand they seem strange but these are countries are ruled by religious doctrine and modern laws

 

Its fine, we don't have to understand or agree with them but its there decision. As long as they don't export terrorism or have tens of thousands of immigrants wanting to get to Europe its not a big deal 

 

Just reminded myself that in Singapore you get caned for throwing chewing gum on the street.

 

 

 

I was there, and loved that there was nowhere any garbage lying around. I seriously wish, that something like that, would be enforced in my country and in many EU countries, which I've visited as well...

[Mamoulian War]

what we actual said were the following:a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210

 

and again, how can you be missing the point?  apostasy is not criminalized in the USA. loy would not need fight and lose her appeal.  she would not need go into hiding.  she could be whatever religion she so desired w/o fear o' criminalization.  

 

you suggest that western media is making malaysia look bad?  w/o the recent airline troubles, we suspect most westerners would have a hard time pinpointing malaysia on a map, and am certain most westerners is unaware o' the common freedoms they have that would be denied to them in malaysia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Sorry, but you are the same hypocryte as you are accusing them... Badmouthing them about not respecting the western culture and meanwhile not respecting the culture which is their own...

[Gromnir]

 

what we actual said were the following:a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210

 

and again, how can you be missing the point?  apostasy is not criminalized in the USA. loy would not need fight and lose her appeal.  she would not need go into hiding.  she could be whatever religion she so desired w/o fear o' criminalization.  

 

you suggest that western media is making malaysia look bad?  w/o the recent airline troubles, we suspect most westerners would have a hard time pinpointing malaysia on a map, and am certain most westerners is unaware o' the common freedoms they have that would be denied to them in malaysia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Sorry, but you are the same hypocryte as you are accusing them... Badmouthing them about not respecting the western culture and meanwhile not respecting the culture which is their own...

 

is not hypocrisy.  am not asking for western culture to be respected.  am not much o' a fan o' western culture. 

 

Gromnir is in favor o' personal liberty.  where culture intrudes on basic fundamental rights, we believes culture should give way.  that is what the Bill o' Rights is all 'bout.  personal freedoms is very frequent in conflict with cultural norms.  

 

regardless, that weren't the issue were it?  qistina were boasting 'bout freedoms in malaysia w/o seeming to realize just how oppressive malaysia can be insofar as religion, sexual orientation and a host o' other basic freedoms that westerners take for granted. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

"The church that being raid is because they against the law, they publish their new Malay version of Bible to convert Muslims into Christianity. That's why they got raid by the police. Your country will do the same if any mosques in your country are against your country law isn't it?"

 

lol

Look to be fair you can't judge these types of perceived  strange or unreasonable decisions by countries like Malaysia  ...I understand they seem strange but these are countries are ruled by religious doctrine and modern laws

 

Its fine, we don't have to understand or agree with them but its there decision. As long as they don't export terrorism or have tens of thousands of immigrants wanting to get to Europe its not a big deal 

 

Just reminded myself that in Singapore you get caned for throwing chewing gum on the street.

 

 

 

I was there, and loved that there was nowhere any garbage lying around. I seriously wish, that something like that, would be enforced in my country and in many EU countries, which I've visited as well...

 

Oh I want to add that I have no issue with a country following what I would consider are religious conservative laws  or just unreasonable  strict laws  as long as the citizens of those countries don't live in poverty or just not part of the economic system due to lack of good governance 

 

Because I believe in regime change or at least political pressure put on countries if they are dictatorships...I'm not saying the West needs to go to war with every non-Democrat system out there but we don't need to accept it unless there is some strategic or political consideration like China or Saudi Arabia

 

Now I know many of you guys don't get this and you believe that the West shouldn't interfere in other countries affairs but there is definitely  a real case for this if done in the right way 

[Mamoulian War]

I would be interested to hear your honest opinion on when you think, was the last time the west really successfully interfered in other countries affair, without turning them into utter political mess and hotbed for extremism.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[Gromnir]

as an aside, we got a long list o' cultural norms that offend us... have never suggested that all cultures should be respected. clubbing seals or hunting endangered species for their aphrodisiac imbued organs.  ritiual sacrifice.  slavery. oppressing 1/2 the population 'cause they lack a pen!s. etc.

 

am not certain why some folks believe that all cultures and their idiosyncrasies must be respected... so no, no hypocrisy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mamoulian War]

as an aside, we got a long list o' cultural norms that offend us... have never suggested that all cultures should be respected. clubbing seals or hunting endangered species for their aphrodisiac imbued organs.  ritiual sacrifice.  slavery. oppressing 1/2 the population 'cause they lack a pen!s. etc.

 

am not certain why some folks believe that all cultures and their idiosyncrasies must be respected... so no, no hypocrisy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Then don't act surprised, when some people say, that they do not have respect for the american culture as well...

[Gromnir]

I would be interested to hear your honest opinion on when you think, was the last time the west really successfully interfered in other countries affair, without turning them into utter political mess and hotbed for extremism.

can you identify your logic fallacy, and in any event, what is the relevance o' your query?  we didn't advocate western intervention in this thread.  and how does our pov on western intervention western change the personal freedoms enjoyed or withheld from malaysians?

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps  you seem to forget that the majority o' western intervention comes in the form o' the benign or banal.  medicine, engineering, coca-cola, etc.

[Gromnir]

 

as an aside, we got a long list o' cultural norms that offend us... have never suggested that all cultures should be respected. clubbing seals or hunting endangered species for their aphrodisiac imbued organs.  ritiual sacrifice.  slavery. oppressing 1/2 the population 'cause they lack a pen!s. etc.

 

am not certain why some folks believe that all cultures and their idiosyncrasies must be respected... so no, no hypocrisy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Then don't act surprised, when some people say, that they do not have respect for the american culture as well...

 

what thread are you reading?  where do we act surprised by lack o' respect o' american culture.  we expect lack o' respect for american culture and it don't actual bother us.  we do express consternation when folks continue to presume that they know american legal protections o' fundamental rights, but such ignorance don't surprise us.  you got no idea how many folks from parts unknown who has lectured us 'bout American protections o' fundamental rights o' speech and religion.

 

no surprises yet.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

what we actual said were the following:a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210

 

and again, how can you be missing the point?  apostasy is not criminalized in the USA. loy would not need fight and lose her appeal.  she would not need go into hiding.  she could be whatever religion she so desired w/o fear o' criminalization.  

 

you suggest that western media is making malaysia look bad?  w/o the recent airline troubles, we suspect most westerners would have a hard time pinpointing malaysia on a map, and am certain most westerners is unaware o' the common freedoms they have that would be denied to them in malaysia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Sorry, but you are the same hypocryte as you are accusing them... Badmouthing them about not respecting the western culture and meanwhile not respecting the culture which is their own...

 

is not hypocrisy.  am not asking for western culture to be respected.  am not much o' a fan o' western culture. 

 

Gromnir is in favor o' personal liberty.  where culture intrudes on basic fundamental rights, we believes culture should give way.  that is what the Bill o' Rights is all 'bout.  personal freedoms is very frequent in conflict with cultural norms.  

 

regardless, that weren't the issue were it?  qistina were boasting 'bout freedoms in malaysia w/o seeming to realize just how oppressive malaysia can be insofar as religion, sexual orientation and a host o' other basic freedoms that westerners take for granted. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Its funny that you don't think Western culture needs to be respected, you normally use logic in your views but this seems to be an incongruous point ?

 

 

What is wrong with saying that the West has systems of government  that have consistently been proven to offer there citizens the best quality of life ? Yes the West has made mistakes, yes the West has issues but that doesn't mean that the Western system of governance doesn't work. The facts speak for themselves 

 

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/legatum-institute-prosperity-index-top-countries-2015-10

 

And I'm not suggesting its because the West is the best because white people are running the West or the West is intellectually  superior 

 

Any country can implement what Western countries do but there need to be four key fundamentals that are common in all Western countries but to ensure real economic transformation and to achieve reasonable happiness of the average citizen you need to follow all four of these as much as possible ( I am just summarizing these points in the interests of brevity )

 

• Effective governments that manage the government institutions properly
• Governments that are elected by the people and are accountable to the people
• Governments must respect the rule of law in there countries
• The economy needs to be driven primarily by the free market

What I often see in the African context is governments that follow maybe two or three of these points but fail in others and then wonder why they dont achieve, for example, a stronger economy

 

So the success of the West is not because of Imperialism, Colonialism or because " we are  white males " ....no its all about how the countries are run and governed  and this would naturally lead to an economic and positive social transformation 

[Qistina]

what we actual said were the following:a muslim in malaysia can be executed for converting to christianity and celebrating christmas.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/10/us-religion-atheists-idUSBRE9B900G20131210

 

and again, how can you be missing the point?  apostasy is not criminalized in the USA. loy would not need fight and lose her appeal.  she would not need go into hiding.  she could be whatever religion she so desired w/o fear o' criminalization.  

 

you suggest that western media is making malaysia look bad?  w/o the recent airline troubles, we suspect most westerners would have a hard time pinpointing malaysia on a map, and am certain most westerners is unaware o' the common freedoms they have that would be denied to them in malaysia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Your media always makes other countries look bad, your movies too...according to your movies, Japanese love to cut off people head and going kamikaze, then they killed themselves in harakiri...Russian always big grumpy men talking simple broken English and dumb looking...Chinese are weird kinky people and militaristic communists...Vietnams are all bad and savages...Germans always have serious cold face and love to rant...Middle Easterners are dirty bearded angry looking people...and on and on and on...everyone are bad except you

 

Why would anyone want to listen to you and following your set of morality and laws? Iihave a country, I have my people, my culture, my religion, this is my land, the business of the people of my land is our business...so what is your problem with my land? Do i complaint about your land and your business?

[Qistina]

I want to talk a bit of a history here...Malaysia don't exist before 1957, this is a modern country called "Malaysia", a part of United Nation, USA and British ally...

 

Before 1957 we are separatd by small petty kingdoms but we creating a federation called Federation of Malaya, consists of 9 kingdoms and 5 states. This federation is British ally. In WW2 this federation was under attacked by Japanese, they kick the British out and so Malaya was under Japanese rule for 2 years. British and allies kick the Japanese out later after Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb attack. British want to rule Federation of Malaya, but Malays resent, we don't want to be under western rule. British enforce the Queens law and try to shape my country as they will, but we manage to gain independence in 1957....this independent federation now called Federation of Malaysia or just Malaysia

 

That's modern history...but take back further into the past...we was an empire called Melaka, a Muslim empire of SEA. But there was a crusade by a Portuguese Alfonso d'alBuqueque in 1511 making Melaka fall and break up into small petty kingdoms in SEA. That's how Christianity comes here, through crusade, that's why Christianity is not popular among Malays. The crusaders razing our city, burning house, rape, destroying buildings and bulding church on them...thst church still exist today.

 

Since then more and more western people comes and making a mess...the notorious Dutch, the Spanish, the English...everybody making a mess in SEA...just imagine...they all fighting eachother to monopolize trades and spreading Christianity...

 

My people have a loooooong history with western people....but the world simply forget western CRIMES in SEA, never being taught in your school isn't it?

Edited November 15, 2015 by Qistina