aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) I thought Kylo Ren was done quite well. It was the "unreveal". We think he's a badass like Vader because he presents himself as a badass like Vader despite not even coming close. Throughout the movie he just unravels completely, getting more and more distraught because nothing he does works out the way he wants. Exactly. What people seem to not understand about Kylo Ren even though the movie signals it very, very carefully is that he's basically an angsty teenager with little to no self-control and an unhealthy dose of hero worship towards Vader, who has somehow managed to skid along on sheer force talent alone, but never had the training to make real use of that talent, or a need to step up his game. I think he was the best part of the movie, honestly. Edited January 2, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I thought Kylo Ren was done quite well. It was the "unreveal". We think he's a badass like Vader because he presents himself as a badass like Vader despite not even coming close. Throughout the movie he just unravels completely, getting more and more distraught because nothing he does works out the way he wants. Exactly. What people seem to not understand about Kylo Ren even though the movie signals it very, very carefully is that he's basically an angsty teenager with little to no self-control and an unhealthy dose of hero worship towards Vader, who has somehow managed to skid along on sheer force talent alone, but never had the training to make real use of that talent, or a need to step up his game. I think he was the best part of the movie, honestly. Movie does piss poor job to show Kylo Ren's inner struggle and it gives very little reason behind that struggle. Especially why he fears succumbing to light side, it's not ever explained why Kylo Ren thinks that light side is bad or powerless. Snoke motivates Kylo Ren to kill his father by doubting Kylo Ren's commitment to dark side, but movie gives no explanation why it works. . Darth Vader in A New Hope had quite clear motivation behind his actions, crush all those oppose Galactic Empire, and he was shown as super competent in what he does, although he had his flaws like for example he had little tolerance towards things that he saw incompetence and was quick to punish for it and he don't take insults towards him well. So Vader was not anyway example of great writing, but he is well enough composed that viewers never questions his motivations and his visual display, music in scenes where he is and how other people perform around him make him menacing and gives him that feel that make him well remembered even after several decades. Meaning that you don't necessary need remarkable writing to make iconic character. Kylo Ren is somewhat opposite of Vader in character design, he don't have clear motivations, he struggles with his identity, he is not that competent in his actions, he blames himself more of set backs than others, also his visual and audio designs aren't fully set in certain atmosphere, as we keep seeing him in and out of his mask and his voice changes depending on that and he don't have similar set in audio track as Vader. So Kylo Ren is character that is made for deeper character arc than what we saw in the movie, which does disservice for the movie, but I would guess that current writers of Star Wars follow modern block buster trend where whole movie series is seen as one piece and it don't matter if character has flaws from point of singular movie. Same could be said how Rey is able to be so competent in her use of force. Although what I have gather from articles about movie is that original vision for Rey was different from what she is in movie, as originally it was meant that she don't have any clue what Jedi are or never heard about force. Also Maz was originally meant to be force user and one, I guess, that teaches Rey, but these were eventually dropped, probably because they don't really fit in story about seeking legendary jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Supposedly there's a deleted scene in which Snoke tells Ren that even Darth Vader couldn't kill his family and his moment of weakness led to the Empire's downfall, the undertone manipulation being "if you kill your father, you'll be better than Darth Vader himself". But, since it was left on the cutting room floor it becomes irrelevant. I don't think they did a poor job showing his arc in this movie myself but that's a scene I would have liked to see. It would also have brought some much needed credibility to Snoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The new villains are supposed to have more drama about them, at least Kylo Ren is, but everything from his appearance to his temper tantrums are on a Jar Jar Binks level of embarrassment. While watching the movie, I just kept thinking of Harry Potter villains whenever he was on screen ...and 'Snoke'? Seriously, SNOKE??? Nothing Harry and Hermione can't fix with a wand. Yes, those two characters were a complete failure in my book, not enough to ruin the overall enjoyment of the movie though. It was fun watching Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher again. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Hey, don't knock Harry Potter's Snape. Bastard's a badass and probably the only character in that entire series with any depth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I thought Kylo Ren was done quite well. It was the "unreveal". We think he's a badass like Vader because he presents himself as a badass like Vader despite not even coming close. Throughout the movie he just unravels completely, getting more and more distraught because nothing he does works out the way he wants. Exactly. What people seem to not understand about Kylo Ren even though the movie signals it very, very carefully is that he's basically an angsty teenager with little to no self-control and an unhealthy dose of hero worship towards Vader, who has somehow managed to skid along on sheer force talent alone, but never had the training to make real use of that talent, or a need to step up his game. I think he was the best part of the movie, honestly. Movie does piss poor job to show Kylo Ren's inner struggle and it gives very little reason behind that struggle. Does he need any more reason beyond "he's a stupid teenager doing stupid teenage rebellion stuff with the power of a god at his fingertips"? 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fighter Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Does he need any more reason beyond "he's a stupid teenager doing stupid teenage rebellion stuff with the power of a god at his fingertips"? Stupid and doing stupid maybe not the greatest pitch for a worthy villain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 Tell that to Joffrey Baratheon, I've never hated a villain more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I thought Kylo Ren was done quite well. It was the "unreveal". We think he's a badass like Vader because he presents himself as a badass like Vader despite not even coming close. Throughout the movie he just unravels completely, getting more and more distraught because nothing he does works out the way he wants. Exactly. What people seem to not understand about Kylo Ren even though the movie signals it very, very carefully is that he's basically an angsty teenager with little to no self-control and an unhealthy dose of hero worship towards Vader, who has somehow managed to skid along on sheer force talent alone, but never had the training to make real use of that talent, or a need to step up his game. I think he was the best part of the movie, honestly. Movie does piss poor job to show Kylo Ren's inner struggle and it gives very little reason behind that struggle. Does he need any more reason beyond "he's a stupid teenager doing stupid teenage rebellion stuff with the power of a god at his fingertips"? Not necessary, but movie didn't give that as explanation why he has such hard time. And also teenage rebellion starts to become quite old when you are nearer to 30 years old (as according to official canon he was born 0-1 years after battle of Endor which was 30 years before beginning the movie). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Does he need any more reason beyond "he's a stupid teenager doing stupid teenage rebellion stuff with the power of a god at his fingertips"? Stupid and doing stupid maybe not the greatest pitch for a worthy villain? *cough* Palpatine *cough* Does he need any more reason beyond "he's a stupid teenager doing stupid teenage rebellion stuff with the power of a god at his fingertips"? Not necessary, but movie didn't give that as explanation why he has such hard time. Given the sheer volume of information the movie communicates to us about him visually, I'd be really really surprised if the fact that he looks just like an emo teenager would've been some accident and not a very deliberate choice. Edited January 2, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Well, based on this movie, one can easily say that the dark side, or evil itself, is not seductive, terrifying or alluring in any way. It's more like a ****roach; it's annoying, pestering and just don't go away, no matter how many times you want to brush it off. Such evil is empty of any foundation and thus as interesting as the motives of football hooligans. Heck, even the Wicked Queen in Snow White had more character and motives than Kylo. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Well, based on this movie, one can easily say that the dark side, or evil itself, is not seductive, terrifying or alluring in any way. It's more like a ****roach; it's annoying, pestering and just don't go away, no matter how many times you want to brush it off. And that's exactly the thing I like about it! It portrays evil as something really, really petty and immature, kind of like how it is in real life? 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Well, based on this movie, one can easily say that the dark side, or evil itself, is not seductive, terrifying or alluring in any way. It's more like a ****roach; it's annoying, pestering and just don't go away, no matter how many times you want to brush it off. And that's exactly the thing I like about it! It portrays evil as something really, really petty and immature, kind of like how it is in real life? Then we have to agree to disagree. While petty evil, like simple stealing and bullying is a part of life, it is also the most easiest to resist, both mentally and physically. Evil done well, is when it is metaphysical force of nature with a philosophical foundation that weak men are easily succumbed to, thanks to either their fears and vices. I am thinking of the Sith Academy mission on Korriban in KotOR 1, as well as the arguments used in the original SW movies about order and the allure to power. Thus being a good person and doing good is inheritly more difficult to be, and more difficult to overcome, which leaves it much more gratifying when it prevails in the end. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Evil done well, is when it is metaphysical force of nature with a philosophical foundation that weak men are easily succumbed to, thanks to either their fears and vices. And I think that's ego-stroking wankery that feeds an unearned sense of superiority. Evil is small, evil is stupid, evil is petty. But we like to dress it up as something more than that, something that has a certain grandeur to it, because it lets us feel better about ourselves when we do small, stupid, petty ****, or feel like we fought off a real menace when we refrain from doing so. Evil is this: A frothing maniac with the world's smallest ****. Edited January 2, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Evil done well, is when it is metaphysical force of nature with a philosophical foundation that weak men are easily succumbed to, thanks to either their fears and vices. And I think that's ego-stroking wankery that feeds an unearned sense of superiority. Evil is small, evil is stupid, evil is petty. But we like to dress it up as something more than that, something that has a certain grandeur to it, because it lets us feel better about ourselves when we do small, stupid, petty ****, or feel like we fought off a real menace when we refrain from doing so. Evil is this: A frothing maniac with the world's smallest ****. Again, i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. Your fascination with an (evil) outside force posing a challenge to the protagonists baffles me. It's hardly the only possible source of conflict in a movie. 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. Your fascination with an (evil) outside force posing a challenge to the protagonists baffles me. It's hardly the only possible source of conflict in a movie. In a Star Wars movie, it makes perfect sense. Outside of that, it is just a matter of different taste. 1 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fighter Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Tell that to Joffrey Baratheon, I've never hated a villain more. Sure. But with Joffrey Baratheon the character and the circumstances that put him in that position are superbly well explained. He is the product of his environment which you get to see. Joffrey Baratheon is a kid that is deeply twisted. Kylo comes of like a kid with a tantrum that should have him sneaking out of his room to go drink beer past bedtime. This is what a "rebellious teenager" is. It is telling that this is how he seems to be described all over. Not like a warped and crooked child or an evil little s---- like Joffrey. But like a character from a teen TV show about high school drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. Your fascination with an (evil) outside force posing a challenge to the protagonists baffles me. It's hardly the only possible source of conflict in a movie. In a Star Wars movie, it makes perfect sense. It's also a story that has been told before in six movies! Switching up the formula a bit also makes perfect sense. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 I can't believe that in a series about secret adoptions, kids' literal rebellion against their father and boys kissing their sisters, this is the bit of family drama that people can't deal with. This is why Star Wars fans will never like anything - because they can't remember how bad Star Wars is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. Your fascination with an (evil) outside force posing a challenge to the protagonists baffles me. It's hardly the only possible source of conflict in a movie. In a Star Wars movie, it makes perfect sense. It's also a story that has been told before in six movies! Switching up the formula a bit also makes perfect sense. Switching formula is all fine and dandy, but in this case they failed executing it properly. 1 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fighter Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I never said I can't deal with it. I liked the movie well enough. I just don't think this aspect is particularly well done. The originals are old movies. There is a lot of stuff in old beloved movies that wouldn't fly today. For example "Luke I am your father" is never going to get more than an eye-roll if it is done today. It is not unreasonable to ask for the new ones to be smarter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. Your fascination with an (evil) outside force posing a challenge to the protagonists baffles me. It's hardly the only possible source of conflict in a movie. In a Star Wars movie, it makes perfect sense. It's also a story that has been told before in six movies! Switching up the formula a bit also makes perfect sense. Switching formula is all fine and dandy, but in this case they failed executing it properly. So you don't fundamentally disagree with the goal of creating a villain who's basically a poser and a wannabe? Edited January 2, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Palpatine is pretty clever. Well ok, helped by his enemies being stupid but one does as much as one has to. Kylo Ren starts off pretty cool at the village attack. Then he starts talking more and takes off the mask Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 i disagree. If evil is something petty and simple, it's not frightning or something to be feared and thus, a very boring plot device in a movie. Your fascination with an (evil) outside force posing a challenge to the protagonists baffles me. It's hardly the only possible source of conflict in a movie. In a Star Wars movie, it makes perfect sense. It's also a story that has been told before in six movies! Switching up the formula a bit also makes perfect sense. Switching formula is all fine and dandy, but in this case they failed executing it properly. So you don't fundamentally disagree with the goal of creating a villain who's basically a poser and a wannabe? Not in principle. It would've been more believeable though if: 1) Kylo would've been just a leader of 20-30 raiders, terrorizing on one planet like a bunch of low-level bandits, or 2) He would've been surrounded by other competent, inspiring and charismatic leaders in the First Order But since neither situation is (or a better abbrivation of it) played out, we are left with a uncharistmatic leader with silly henchmen of a major faction big enough to build a death star with supposedly millions of followers, because reasons. Nah, failed execution i would say. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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