Spellsword, Battlemage, Arcane Warrior, Paladin and Templar

[Qistina]

What role to play when the role it self isn't there? Where's your logic?

 

To play a role, the role must be there, if the role is not there, then what role to play?

 

To role-play a Paladin, the role of Paladin must be there to play, if it isn't there then you ain't play any role, because it isn't there.

 

You can make a Paladin-like build but your Dragonborn is not a paladin, because there is no Paladin in Skyrim. There is Vigilant of Strendar but you will never join that faction because you can't. And they are not Paladins either. So what role do you play? NOTHING

 

You just play a build and making stuff in your mind, pretend to be it is there while it isn't there, it is like crazy and denial syndrome.

[Orogun01]

What role to play when the role it self isn't there? Where's your logic?

 

To play a role, the role must be there, if the role is not there, then what role to play?

 

To role-play a Paladin, the role of Paladin must be there to play, if it isn't there then you ain't play any role, because it isn't there.

 

You can make a Paladin-like build but your Dragonborn is not a paladin, because there is no Paladin in Skyrim. There is Vigilant of Strendar but you will never join that faction because you can't. And they are not Paladins either. So what role do you play? NOTHING

 

You just play a build and making stuff in your mind, pretend to be it is there while it isn't there, it is like crazy and denial syndrome.

You really sound a bit whiny, no offense. 

If your problem with Skyrim is that there is no class system and that classless systems don't allow you to get in the mood then that's your deal. Plenty of players have no problem finding ways to justify behavior in the game universe, which is at the core of roleplaying either video game or tabletop. There is no mechanical or story reason as to why your argument is valid as it seem to come down to how you feel.

[NightRevan]

What role to play when the role it self isn't there? Where's your logic?

 

To play a role, the role must be there, if the role is not there, then what role to play?

 

To role-play a Paladin, the role of Paladin must be there to play, if it isn't there then you ain't play any role, because it isn't there.

 

You can make a Paladin-like build but your Dragonborn is not a paladin, because there is no Paladin in Skyrim. There is Vigilant of Strendar but you will never join that faction because you can't. And they are not Paladins either. So what role do you play? NOTHING

 

You just play a build and making stuff in your mind, pretend to be it is there while it isn't there, it is like crazy and denial syndrome.

I think you are getting to hung up on needing the game to have to provide the role you wish to play explicitly in terms of classes, but that isn't necessary as many have pointed out in this thread there have always been classless RPG systems in which you work out and decide who your character is rather than picking a class (which often comes with it's own oddities such as restrictions that don't often make logical sense, why can't a mage wear armour for example, particularly if he isn't energetically fighting in the front lines as good armour was designed to distribute it's weight well and shouldn't actually require that much strength to wear, or in real skill per say, appart perhaps stamina to fight and run for extended periods time in it which the mage won't be doing on the whole, so unless it's something to do with metal itself - which is my headcannon when I play say BG games, it doesn't make sense accept from a gameplay standpoint).

 

In the end both class and classless systems both have their oddities and have things that cause logical problems when you think about them, so you just have to accept those issues and work through them.

 

As relates to Elder Scrolls, on one had you are correct that a specific class or group of warriors has never been called paladins, they aren't part of the lore and you can't join an order ir proclaim yourself to any in the world a paladin and have it mean anything inworld. But then so what, you can't call yourself a specifically say a nightblade in many other worlds for them to kniw what you mean, as it's a tern used in the Elders Scrolls world, or an arcane archer or shadowdancer whuch only exist in D&D lore, or arcane warrior outside Dragon Age etc. Some terms exist in some fantasy worlds but not in others, and if you are pkaying in that world you can use another term but of course it will only exist for you the player by necessity (in a P&P RPG a DM/GM might of course tweak tge world accomodate your desired role's profession and develop lore on it, but that can't happen with pre-programmed games, only posdibly mods can help you there).

 

That said if you stop being si fixated on needing a class label there is nothing stopping you playing a character whose profesdion/vocation is like the role you have in mind and even see that reflected in another world's history or lore, you can play a nightblade like class in D&D games, or a paladin class character in Elder Scrolls etc.

 

In Elder Scrolls it would roughly fall into knight class, or designing a custom class around this, I think since Daggerfall this tempkate was a warrior class with focus on sone healing ability (and being the healer template would be clerical or priestly since you coukd have them devoted to a temple or order). There are also knight orders devoted to each of the (well eight in Daggerfall) nine divines, that you coukd join in Daggerfall, though that was a choice not necessarily bond to your class provided it was a melee class to some extent, but you can have that role, or join a temple and become a protector for them. Thst would be your character's calling, their higher purpose, is oart of their character and a role. In Morrowind you could join the tempkes if I remember (or something similar) and you have the knights of the nine in Oblivion. Obviously you don't have the facility to join a knights order (but outside imperials woukd that make sense native to Skyrim) or the temples or the vigilance of Stendarr (which I agree is a shame, though the live another life mod really helps a bit here in allowing you to start of as a member of the Vigilance of Stendarr) but there is nothing stopping you conceiving that your character belonged to one of these orders which were destroyed or disrupted by the Thalmor war and whatever else lead your character to fleeing into Skyrim in the first place, and that woukd be your characters role which is how you play them, which is role-playing a character. You don't need a class to tell you how to role-play your character, nor does having one mean you are.

 

But I'm also slightly confused, in this thread I thought you wished to discuss and find out what defines spellsword, battlemage classes (particularly in relation to Elder Scrolls) and the Arcane Warrior specialization in Dragon Age. But now you seem to want to get onto class vs classless systems with a view that class is necessary to role-play (I think to narrow a focus here and would enjoy yourself more taking a step back and not letting your sense of RP be bond to just a name on a character sheet). So which are you after, what is your goal in this discussion, what answers are you seeking?

 

That clarity might make the thread's purpose more clear and less frusrtrating

[Qistina]

What i am trying to say is game developers today only making games to play, they only want to make money, that's why they don't care about Role-Playing class anymore, they are so lazy to bother about creating classes to role-play.

 

To make classes with Role-Playing value require CREATIVITY to create their background, lores, stories, characterizations, factions, concept and so much more. Game devs today only care MAKING MONEY by making games to play, not making role-playing games to play

 

The sad part is many players that are CASUAL gamers and KIDS defend their precious game developers into making such soulless games. And they are halucinating, mental, psycho...creating something out of nothing, creating something isn't there in their mind, PRETENDING to role-play while there is nothing to role-play...

 

So, future games will be games where game devs only making beautiful graphics, beautiful concept art, **** game mechanic, **** stories, and sell...they become rich...while gamers got cheated in every turn and giving them money.

 

And sadly gamers have become psychos making things the game devs didn't do it....

 

Do you guys satisfied with this gaming world...?

[Amentep]

Game mechanics /= role playing

Lore /= role playing

Factions /= role playing

[Qistina]

Game mechanics /= role playing

Lore /= role playing

Factions /= role playing

 

 

 

Paladin is a class and a role, and it is depend on lore

 

The Paladin game-play also depndent on it's lore

 

Belong in faction is role-playing that faction member

[Amentep]

Paladin is whatever it is / isn't defined as in the game.  But lore itself is not role playing but a tool to aid roleplaying; the lore surrounding a theoretical paladin class is only going to be there to exist as a background and/or a constraint or guide to role-playing but is not, itself, role-playing.

 

Factions also exist to create options and tensions in a game, but are not necessary for role-playing nor are they required to even be in a setting (although, again, they make the setting richer by adding options and tensions).

 

Role-playing is what you do with the tools presented to you - it is not the tools themselves.

 

Lore, classes, racial characteristics are tools to define a role, but role-playing is what you do with that role once you create it, in cooperation with your "game master" (or in the case of video games - as limited as they can be with respect to role play - what they game has been created to allow).

[Qistina]

Only with "Paladin" as an example i can show you guys how hard to create a game with "Paladin" as a class to role-play

 

The Paladin must belong to a faction, religious faction be it church, temple, or monastery. These also must have backstory of each existence. These also must belong to a place, country or nation and all these also must have own history.

 

The Paladin skillset and game mechanic cannot contradict what a Paladin should be, cannot have spells and/miracles that bring destruction or chaos, must be a passive force but yet once a while may summon strength from higher power

 

The Paladin must have religion, cannot be a pagan or an atheist

 

The faction the Paladin belong to must have lores and must be a group of righteous people, they might be zealous but they won't tolerate evil

 

So game devs must create all these just because ONE CLASS for players to ROLE-PLAY it....they don't bother to create these, (they only want money) so they only create some skills for player to choose then the players themselves PRETENDING to be a Paladin by the build that come out to be...so the fans create a video titled "Paladin Build"

Edited October 26, 2015 by Qistina

[Orogun01]

Only with "Paladin" as an example i can show you guys how hard to create a game with "Paladin" as a class to role-play

 

The Paladin must belong to a faction, religious faction be it church, temple, or monastery. These also must have backstory of each existence. These also must belong to a place, country or nation and all these also must have own history.

 

The Paladin skillset and game mechanic cannot contradict what a Paladin should be, cannot have spells and/miracles that bring destruction or chaos, must be a passive force but yet once a while may summon strength from higher power

 

The Paladin must have religion, cannot be a pagan or an atheist

 

The faction the Paladin belong to must have lores and must be a group of righteous people, they might be zealous but they won't tolerate evil

 

So game devs must create all these just because ONE CLASS for players to ROLE-PLAY it....they don't bother to create these, (they only want money) so they only create some skills for player to choose then the players themselves PRETENDING to be a Paladin by the build that come out to be...so the fans create a video titled "Paladin Build"

Not really; a Paladin must have a God.

You could easily roleplay in TEs a Warrior/Healer who is dedicated to Stendarr and isn't a follower of the Vigilants, but still communes with his God.

[Amentep]

The Paladin must belong to a faction, religious faction be it church, temple, or monastery. These also must have backstory of each existence. These also must belong to a place, country or nation and all these also must have own history.

 

Paladin, as a word, started - as I understand it - as a reference to the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne from The Song of Roland (albeit they were originally the companions of Roland, not Charlemagne in earliest chansons de geste).  The word derives from the Latin Palatinus which was a reference to high ranking officials in a royal court.

 

While these knights were exemplars of the code of chivalry and certainly tied into Christianity (as were the Knights of the Round Table, who are also sometimes characterized as Paladins and whose stories are tied to a pagan origin), the Paladin concept seen in D&D and its derivatives are probably more influenced by the Knights Templar, the Knights Hospitaller and/or similar knight and monastic orders as much as they are the peers of Charlemagne.

 

All this to say, you don't have to have any of those things you mention to be a Paladin, because Paladin is a concept that exists as its defined in the game.  If a TES game allows you to pick a set of skills and calls that a Paladin then that is what a Paladin is defined as for that game and/or TES universe.  The Paladin as a title has no need to be connected to the D&D version anymore than the D&D version was held to the definitions of Paladins on display in Charlemagne tales or Arthurian legend (or else they'd be about searching for holy Christian relic, killing Saracen's in Spain and generally getting killed heroically in battle a lot which wouldn't make a lot of sense in Dungeons and Dragons, much less The Elder Scrolls).

Edited October 26, 2015 by Amentep

[HoonDing]

My latest TES character was fighter/mage/thief.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

My latest TES character was fighter/mage/thief.

All Skyrim characters end up as that.

[Amentep]

 

My latest TES character was fighter/mage/thief.

All Skyrim characters end up as that.

 

 

Mine is a Mage/Thief/Blacksmith

[Qistina]

So you guys just love game devs making a good graphic, some skill sets, some character models, a map with it's content, and then just let you guys halucinating yourself like taking drug, imagine something not there, pretending to be something that isn't there in the game?

 

It is easy to be a game developer then...even i can make it with simple Warcraft 3 engine like DotA...even DotA have RP element on each heroes and classes...i was one of the character suggesters anyway.

 

I am not a kid okay, i am 37 now, i've being playing games since Doom the first and even before that playing games with big floppy disks, i born in 80, i am 80's...don't tell me i know the difference between game genres and what is RPG, and don't treat me like i don't know anything about classes and lores, don't treat me like i know nothing

 

What i am saying here is game developers don't care anything other than your money, they only create maps and toons for you to get addicted, and that's all. They only want your money giving only toons to play, that's why i say it is soulless, and i am not talking only about TES, but most games today are like that.

 

"Arcane Warrior" removed from Dragon Age because they don't bother to explain lore behind that class specialization, it is complicated, they don't bother, so they just remove it. The next game in DA2 they put it Force magic that is actually Jedi Force powers copy, and still there is no lore backing it up, just for game-play, and it is LAZINESS. "What specialization we want to replace with Arcane Warrior? Oh what about Jedi Powers? Okay done!". Arcane Warrior never return in DA francise despite the cries from fans. In DA:I they introduce Knight Enchanter that make your mage look like Gandalf, you never see that before in previous games, they also remove healing spells, all for game-play rather than lore and role-playing

 

See what i mean? They only make things to please certain group of players who they know will give them money, so they make things to please these group of peoples, KIDS, who only love to press "Awesome Button" and don't care about anything else other than want to look cool in their game..."oh mommy look at my character wearing Daedric Armor!"...the armor he made at regular smithy in Whiterun, he only need ebony ingot he can buy or mine, and daedra heart in which he can either buy at shops or found somewhere, not hard to be found at certain level, or doing some quest killing daedras

 

You see, Daedric Armor, as we know it is an armor of other plane creatures considered to be gods by some people, demons by some people, creatures of the plane of Oblivion, the highest quality of an armor in the TES universe, kids can make it in a regular forge in Whiterun or anywhere...is that even role-playing?

 

That's what i mean...there is no souls behind names, classes, things in today games anymore, today and future games have no soul...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think you should see a psychiatrist.

[Cantousent]

Yeah, probably a bunch of us should see a psychiatrist. Computer gaming makes us that way.

 

Anyhow, Q, I think you're problem is with the lore, not with classes specifically. Although I do get that you personally prefer a class based system. To me, it comes down to single character versus party based games. In a game with a party, you're encouraged to specialize. Classes are built-in specialties. In a single character game like Fallout or Skyrim, you might get NPCs, but you're pretty much expected to address most if not all contingencies with your one character. Specialize too much and you're cutting yourself out of content or sometimes even creating real difficulty for yourself. Depends on what you want out of the game. Of course, I completely disagree with your idea of 'role-playing,' but I think that's just how we see the term. Anyhow, a little venting and kvetching never hurts, so rail away! :Cant's understanding smile icon:

[Amentep]

So you guys just love game devs making a good graphic, some skill sets, some character models, a map with it's content, and then just let you guys halucinating yourself like taking drug, imagine something not there, pretending to be something that isn't there in the game?

No, I take each game on its own terms and do not create arbitrary constructs to criticize the game for not meeting. I also don't assume that because "X" means something in D&D that it has to mean the same thing in every other game made that isn't D&D.

 

Criticizing TES for having a Paladin class that is not a religious warrior is like criticizing a Star Trek game for not letting you play a Jedi Knight.  Because TES is not D&D which in not the real world folk tales that supplied the Paladin's in the first place.  Its just as inadequate comparison of Paladins between TES and D&D as it is PoE and D&D or TES and PoE.

 

I am not a kid okay, i am 37 now, i've being playing games since Doom the first and even before that playing games with big floppy disks, i born in 80, i am 80's...don't tell me i know the difference between game genres and what is RPG, and don't treat me like i don't know anything about classes and lores, don't treat me like i know nothing

 

I explained the origin of the word Paladin not because I feel you are a kid but because you seem to be hung up on Paladin meaning one thing when it clearly doesn't. And worse you're criticizing non-D&D games for not holding to your definition of Paladin which seems to be strongly shaped by the D&D definition of one.

[Qistina]

 

So you guys just love game devs making a good graphic, some skill sets, some character models, a map with it's content, and then just let you guys halucinating yourself like taking drug, imagine something not there, pretending to be something that isn't there in the game?

No, I take each game on its own terms and do not create arbitrary constructs to criticize the game for not meeting. I also don't assume that because "X" means something in D&D that it has to mean the same thing in every other game made that isn't D&D.

 

Criticizing TES for having a Paladin class that is not a religious warrior is like criticizing a Star Trek game for not letting you play a Jedi Knight.  Because TES is not D&D which in not the real world folk tales that supplied the Paladin's in the first place.  Its just as inadequate comparison of Paladins between TES and D&D as it is PoE and D&D or TES and PoE.

 

I am not a kid okay, i am 37 now, i've being playing games since Doom the first and even before that playing games with big floppy disks, i born in 80, i am 80's...don't tell me i know the difference between game genres and what is RPG, and don't treat me like i don't know anything about classes and lores, don't treat me like i know nothing

 

I explained the origin of the word Paladin not because I feel you are a kid but because you seem to be hung up on Paladin meaning one thing when it clearly doesn't. And worse you're criticizing non-D&D games for not holding to your definition of Paladin which seems to be strongly shaped by the D&D definition of one.

 

 

 

So what are these...?

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94MLniFAwtQ

 

 

You can't deny my point where players making head canon Paladin in TES while there are no such thing in TES, but Bethesda did include Paladin archetype skills in TES in order to make available to players creating a Paladin build to so called ROLE-PLAYING a Paladin...

 

It is like i making a map, i put in models, characters, skill set...then release this game, up to the players to make head canon of so called role-playing my game...making games is so easy then, everyone should start gaming business...all you need to do is making maps and models, and make some simple game-machanic, cash will flow into your bank account

[Qistina]

Yeah, probably a bunch of us should see a psychiatrist. Computer gaming makes us that way.

 

Anyhow, Q, I think you're problem is with the lore, not with classes specifically. Although I do get that you personally prefer a class based system. To me, it comes down to single character versus party based games. In a game with a party, you're encouraged to specialize. Classes are built-in specialties. In a single character game like Fallout or Skyrim, you might get NPCs, but you're pretty much expected to address most if not all contingencies with your one character. Specialize too much and you're cutting yourself out of content or sometimes even creating real difficulty for yourself. Depends on what you want out of the game. Of course, I completely disagree with your idea of 'role-playing,' but I think that's just how we see the term. Anyhow, a little venting and kvetching never hurts, so rail away! :Cant's understanding smile icon:

 

Classes have lores in games and it should be, example...you can't just being a mage like you just being a mage and no one ever bother about it and it is normal...so a Mage is a class and is depended on magic lore in said game universe. You can't deny a Mage is a class and is a specific kind of person/people/career...you can't say "i am a Mage, i am the same like you farmers, just a guy/girl who can cast lightning out from my fingers, you guys can do it too, just read some tomes and start shooting people with lightning untill at a point where you can stagger and incinerate them..."

 

So when you play or choose to play a Mage, you automatically have already choosing a class to play, and you are automatically belong to a faction that is magic user, someone that use unnatural power, and there must be a history, a cause, a story behind it...you just not simply found a tome of lighting and learn it, then saying "hey i am not a Mage, i am a Paladin, because i say so"

[Fenixp]

You can't deny my point where players making head canon Paladin in TES while there are no such thing in TES, but Bethesda did include Paladin archetype skills in TES in order to make available to players creating a Paladin build to so called ROLE-PLAYING a Paladin...

Are you blaming Bethesda for players roleplaying a Paladin? I... Huh. I mean... Huh. And you are very hung up on the idea of having imaginary classes belonging to imaginary factions in imaginary world of a largely imaginary game and then tell us we're crazy for making up imaginary stories :-P

 

It is like i making a map, i put in models, characters, skill set...then release this game, up to the players to make head canon of so called role-playing my game...making games is so easy then, everyone should start gaming business...all you need to do is making maps and models, and make some simple game-machanic, cash will flow into your bank account

Well you clearly understand game development :-P Go ahead then, do what you just said you'll do, I mean it's the best way for you to understand how incredibly difficult is it to design a game with sufficiently big and varied world, sufficient amount of mechanics, stories, lore and quests to catch player imagination in such a way that they decide to make up their own stories in the world. I'm willing to explain why do TES games work and just how much thought went into their design, but I sort of feel like it would be wasted effort on you - still, if you are interested, I will always be glad to write a small paper on "Why do Elder Scrolls games function?" Edited October 27, 2015 by Fenixp

[Cantousent]

I don't think I can add anything new and I don't think it would be worthwhile to flesh out my views. This is especially true since I see other folks using the same arguments I would use and usually better.

 

I just want to get point out from a 'Cant the moderator' standpoint that this has been a remarkably affable discussion considering how clearly frustrating some of the positions are for various members. Keep fighting the good fight folks and remember not to poke anyone in the eye and no blows below the belt.

 

As an aside, I played a mage in Skyrim. Did every mage quest I could find and eschewed all manner of other stuff. Except... probably speech? Maybe a tad bit of weapon skills? ...But even Dungeons and Dragons allows wizards at least a rudimentary skill set with weapons, eh? :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon:

 

EDIT: Usual silly mistakes.

[Amentep]

You can't deny my point where players making head canon Paladin in TES while there are no such thing in TES, but Bethesda did include Paladin archetype skills in TES in order to make available to players creating a Paladin build to so called ROLE-PLAYING a Paladin...

I don't just deny your point, I reject your entire assertion because its based on an arbitrary insistence that TES has to model its Paladins after a specific archetype represented by the D&D Paladin and that any other version of a Paladin is "head canon" that isn't really a Paladin.