Most overpowered builds post patch 2.02

[Vorad]

 

 

 

 

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.

Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,

 

1. Normal recovery time

2. Armour recovery time

 

So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs

 

I don't see the contradiction if 1 sec attack from 2 hander then you get 2 sec normal recovery and on top of that 50% penalty from armor meaning 0.5 * 2(Normal) = 1 sec recovery penalty from armor, with the ability instead you get 30% penalty due to armor leading to a 0.6 sec recovery penalty due to armor instead of 1 sec. The way I see it from the chart is that armor recovery penalty is applied based on normal recovery.

 

do you agree there are 2 types of recovery, normal recover and then armour recovery and armoured grace will only affect the armour recovery?

 

 "-20% armor speed penalty": so it appears it's not a flat -% on the armor recovery penalty(which I considered above without careful wording) apparently in that case, yes it's effect is much smaller in the case of 2 hander that would be just a 0.2 decrease overall ~ a meager 5% gain in dps!

[Ruminate]

Everything in the game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery.

 

Fighters can achieve greater speed because Swift Strikes doesn't stack with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, whereas Armored Grace does.

 

Yup, you're right. I just tested it. I had previously thought the only difference between dexterity and attack speed was that the latter didn't affect reload speed and armor penalty.

 

While this doesn't change about what I think about the monk vs. fighter, it does change how I view attack speed vs. damage bonuses.

 

 

 

 

patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho

-20% recovery from armored grace

-16% recovery from pilferer's grip

second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)

= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.

gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.

Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.

dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.

PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.

Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.

 

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3

 

Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.

 

The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

 

 

Its overvalued because it doesn't affect the entirety of the attack like dexterity does, which will often make it worse than pure damage modifiers. And i'm not sure where you got your sources, but dexterity affects everything because it increases action speed. (I tested it)

[brindle88]

 

Everything in the game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery.

 

Fighters can achieve greater speed because Swift Strikes doesn't stack with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, whereas Armored Grace does.

 

Yup, you're right. I just tested it. I had previously thought the only difference between dexterity and attack speed was that the latter didn't affect reload speed and armor penalty.

 

While this doesn't change about what I think about the monk vs. fighter, it does change how I view attack speed vs. damage bonuses.

 

 

 

 

patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho

-20% recovery from armored grace

-16% recovery from pilferer's grip

second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)

= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.

gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.

Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.

dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.

PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.

Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.

 

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3

 

Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.

 

The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

 

 

Its overvalued because it doesn't affect the entirety of the attack like dexterity does, which will often make it worse than pure damage modifiers. And i'm not sure where you got your sources, but dexterity affects everything because it increases action speed. (I tested it)

 

hey man im almost certain that that sawyer stated dexterity only affects action speed not recovery speed, scour the forums for it you will find it, just google the appropriate words and obsidian forum

[aweigh0101]

i'm gonna make an sa account then, cos sawyer almost hit it perfect with the knockdown 20% dmg bonus, he just didn't ****ing make te ability a full-attack.

 

right now it's a primary attack only, if it was a full attack it'd bump up fighters dps in a very reasonable way and make knockdown useful for any purpose, cc, dps, or whatever. give them a more active flair in combat. this is the key reason rogue abilities are so damaging, btw, they're all full attacks so **** doubles-down when they're utilized by a dual-wielding rogue.

 

full attack knockdown would open up very interesting dual-wield fighter build. ok, not very interesting, but um better? this would syngergize beautifully with their increased recovery time reduction from armored grace and being -20% recovery time. would make the dual wield fighter a tanky-as-**** dual-wielding dps badass, but still not steal the dmg role from the rogue, as the rogue has many more additive dmg talents than the fighter and is the only one that can become a legit crit-build.

[AndreaColombo]

I've run tests aplenty on speed and recovery.

Dexterity speeds up everything but it is not additive; it applies multiplicatively after all other bonuses have applied.

Everything in game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery time. Stuff that reduces the penalty while wearing armor, of course, only applies to armor recovery penalty. Armored Grace isn't going to do anything if you're wearing clothes with 0% recovery penalty. That said, I'm not sure what you mean with the two recovery times blatherskite. Plate armor makes your recovery 50% slower; with Armored Grace, it makes it 30% slower instead.

Speed bonuses from Durgan Steel stack with everything, and so does the weapon Speed enchantment. Other attack speed bonuses from spells, potions, or abilities don't stack with each other.

The values in the chart linked above are partly outdated. Two-handers have a 50-frame recovery time on a naked character with 10 DEX (including the 4-frame delay that can never be affected or eliminated.)

EDIT:

 

Original research.

 

Some of my research.

Edited November 3, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[brindle88]

I've run tests aplenty on speed and recovery.

 

Dexterity speeds up everything but it is not additive; it applies multiplicatively after all other bonuses have applied.

 

Everything in game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery time. Stuff that reduces the penalty while wearing armor, of course, only applies to armor recovery penalty. Armored Grace isn't going to do anything if you're wearing clothes with 0% recovery penalty. That said, I'm not sure what you mean with the two recovery times blatherskite. Plate armor makes your recovery 50% slower; with Armored Grace, it makes it 30% slower instead.

 

Speed bonuses from Durgan Steel stack with everything, and so does the weapon Speed enchantment. Other attack speed bonuses from spells, potions, or abilities don't stack with each other.

 

The values in the chart linked above are partly outdated. Two-handers have a 50-frame recovery time on a naked character with 10 DEX (including the 4-frame delay that can never be affected or eliminated.)

 

EDIT:

 

Original research.

 

Some of my research.

if you look at the Bar chart sawyer posted, it clearly shows a recover time and then an armor recovery time, can someone please clarify in PLAIN ENGLISH if armored grace affects the ENTIRE RECOVEREY TIME or just the RECOVERY TIME THAT IS ADDED ON BY THE ARMOR.

 

You have stated in your above post that if you have the talent armored grace then this will not affect your recovery if you are wearing no armor. Though this may be so, but it may also be the case that if you are wearing armot the -20% from armored grace may EFFECT THE ENTIRE RECOVERY TIME.

[brindle88]

Guys forget about the attack speed BS lets get back to topic.

 

Ive experimented again with what I think I the most overpowered build 1vs1 and im certain its Rogue.

 

I had a good look at the rogue vs fighter vs Jugg monk and wizard and I tested stuff (as much as I could)

 

I couldn't find a defense from any other class that beat this opening combination from the rogue

 

1. The Rogue opens straight away with shadowing beyond, this does 2 things grants the rogue IMMUNITY TO SPELLS FROM THE WIZARD and GUARANTEES THE ROGUE first strike in melee combat at either a sneak attack or backstab (50% or 100%)

 

2. This fist strike will be blinding strike, guys, go into the game, go have a look at what the blinding affliction does to someone: it reduces accuracy by 25 and deflection by 20.

 

The reduced 20 deflection should ensure that you will continue to land crits and deathblows.

 

Guys I cant beat this on another class combination. It is straight up guaranteed first hit and your blinded then you will be critted and death blowed until death.

 

Hands down winner

[Livegood118]

Pretty sure the Wizard can easily make themselves more or less unhittable with Deflection buffs that last for much longer than a rogue can keep shadowing beyond up ...?

 

Wizard Base Deflection (10) + Bonus From Level 14 (14*3=42) + Resolve (Let's say +2), Sword and Shield Style with Superb Shield Little Saviour (about +30?) + Hardened Arcane Veil (+75)

 

= 10+42+2+30+75 = About 160. Let's say the Rogue is built for accuracy and has 95 Accuracy. 95 - 160 = -65. Even if the Rogue Rolls a 100 he'll graze and he'll have to roll more than 80 to not miss I think ..

 

Rogue: Shadowing Beyond

Wizard: Sword and Superb Small Shield > Arcane Veil (+75 Deflection) > Deleterious Alacrity Of Motion > Wait till Shadowing Beyond Runs Out > Spam CC > Concelhauts 

 

Even if the Rogue got the drop on the Wizard he'd have to keep him Perma Hard-CCd to stop Arcane Veil from going off, which is actually probably doable. Then again, if the Wizard gets the drop on the Rogue it's curtains for him too!

Edited November 3, 2015 by Livegood118

[brindle88]

Pretty sure the Wizard can easily make themselves more or less unhittable with Deflection buffs that last for much longer than a rogue can keep shadowing beyond up ...?

 

Wizard Base Deflection (10) + Bonus From Level 14 (14*3=42) + Resolve (Let's say +2), Sword and Shield Style with Superb Shield Little Saviour (about +30?) + Hardened Arcane Veil (+75)

 

= 10+42+2+30+75 = About 160. Let's say the Rogue is built for accuracy and has 95 Accuracy. 95 - 160 = -65. Even if the Rogue Rolls a 100 he'll graze and he'll have to roll more than 80 to not miss I think ..

 

Rogue: Shadowing Beyond

Wizard: Sword and Superb Small Shield > Arcane Veil (+75 Deflection) > Deleterious Alacrity Of Motion > Wait till Shadowing Beyond Runs Out > Spam CC > Concelhauts 

 

Even if the Rogue got the drop on the Wizard he'd have to keep him Perma Hard-CCd to stop Arcane Veil from going off, which is actually probably doable. Then again, if the Wizard gets the drop on the Rogue it's curtains for him too!

yeah the rogue would have to find a way to counter the hardened veil

[Livegood118]

That was only a rough calculation so give or take 10 deflection either way. I wasn't even including the max deflection you could get as a Wizard as well. You could have Max Resolve and Cautious Attack for another 14 deflection on what's already there (though the Rogue might be able to push their accuracy up a bit further then anyways with single handed style and a native +accuracy weapon). A Wizard can, for all intents and purposes, make himself completely unhittable by melee attacks. Even in the most favourable conditions to both parties with food included I'd still think the Rogue would need to roll more than a 70 not to miss, and even then he'd probably just graze. Meanwhile, the Wizard is spamming every single spell in his book at rapid speed thanks to deleterious alacrity.

 

A good workaround (back in the day) might have been for the Rogue to conjure the Firebrand Greatsword from the forgemaster's gloves which actually attacks reflex instead of deflection but this is no longer the case unfortunately. 

 

If anyone was going to get the Wizard my money would probably be on a priest with Seal of Repulsion - which gets ridiculous accuracy the more mechanics you have. Maybe a Druid too with Returning Storm + Relentless Storm working together as well.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Livegood118

[brindle88]

That was only a rough calculation so give or take 10 deflection either way. I wasn't even including the max deflection you could get as a Wizard as well. You could have Max Resolve and Cautious Attack for another 14 deflection on what's already there (though the Rogue might be able to push their accuracy up a bit further then anyways with single handed style and a native +accuracy weapon). A Wizard can, for all intents and purposes, make himself completely unhittable by melee attacks. Even in the most favourable conditions to both parties with food included I'd still think the Rogue would need to roll more than a 70 not to miss, and even then he'd probably just graze. Meanwhile, the Wizard is spamming every single spell in his book at rapid speed thanks to deleterious alacrity.

 

A good workaround (back in the day) might have been for the Rogue to conjure the Firebrand Greatsword from the forgemaster's gloves which actually attacks reflex instead of deflection but this is no longer the case unfortunately. 

 

If anyone was going to get the Wizard my money would probably be on a priest with Seal of Repulsion - which gets ridiculous accuracy the more mechanics you have. Maybe a Druid too with Returning Storm + Relentless Storm working together as well.

the blind affliction is vs reflex btw not deflection...............go have a look.............. and it can land on a graze...........ah maybe rogue will win.............

[Livegood118]

That's a good point - if the Wiki is to believed 

 

I guess if the Rogue spammed all his abilities that don't target deflection he'd definitely be in with a shot. Blinding's all well and good but you'd need as much Hard CC as you can get to keep the Wizard pinned down and the only thing I can see is Sap on the Rogue's ability sheet but I'm not sure what that targets. A stunned target's got -30 Deflection and -30 Reflex so from that point on the Rogue would be able to move on to Blind Strikes and also rely on stun/prone Procs from weapons.

 

That being said, if the Wizard gets one CC spell off it's curtains for Mr. Rogue because there's a very low chance it's going to miss entirely so that Sap better hit! Call to Slumber, Confusion, Concelhaut's Hammer etc ... will mean death.

[Livegood118]

The Moral of the Story: the class that can (a) get the initial hard CC off and (b) keep it up for as long as possible will probably win.

[brindle88]

The Moral of the Story: the class that can (a) get the initial hard CC off and (b) keep it up for as long as possible will probably win.

yeah and shadowing beyond puts a whole new spin on things because it is the only ability in the game that grants absolute  immunity to everything,

 

im surprised the wizard doesn't have a similar spell

 

lengarths safeguard (the wizard contingency ) may save the wizard though................and the wizard may win.............hahaha

[Livegood118]

I think I'd ultimately put my money on a priest to consistently beat anyone. I'm not sure how Shadowing Beyond interacts with traps (does it activate them?) because unless it makes traps "fail" (e.g. waste them) a priest could just cast repulsing seal where they're standing and the second anyone tries to attack them (breaking invisibility) they'll be prone for like 20 seconds which may as well be GG as the priest can keep spamming repulsing seals. Even if somebody tried using ranged attacks the priest can use the seal at range. The only hope might be the physical class getting an initial ranged crit in with a stun/prone on crit weapon and then moving in but it would have to take place before the priest can cast the seal.

[brindle88]

Yeah I just checked repulsing seal, and you are on to something, but it targets reflex, and the rogue has the highest reflex in the game and also due to maxing dex and perception will give another 36 reflex on top of that, so maybe hard for it to land on the rogue.

 

The rogues lowest defences are actually deflection and will, but Definately not reflex

[brindle88]

Yeah I just checked repulsing seal, and you are on to something, but it targets reflex, and the rogue has the highest reflex in the game and also due to maxing dex and perception will give another 36 reflex on top of that, so maybe hard for it to land on the rogue.

The rogues lowest defences are actually deflection and will, but Definately not reflex

Repulsing seal would seriously whoop classes that don't max dex and perc, very interesting, though almost all melee classes would max these two apart from barbs and monks

 

Rogues completely max dex and perc

Fighters don't quite max dex and perc but they pump them a bit

[Livegood118]

I actually just read that apparently mechanics doesn't affect seal spells anymore (maybe it never did ...?) https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82810-priests-seal-spells-and-mechanics-skill/ though they are still stupidly accurate and will at least Graze most people. Good to know!

 

Thank God PVP wasn't introduced in this game otherwise we could go on like this forever 

[aweigh0101]

priest seals/traps now feature flat +30/40 acc modifier instead of being determined by mechanics. GG obsidian :D

*we have to assume this is a battle-hardened priest, and he's not freaking loafing around the house. he is VIGILANT and takes measure. otherwise we coan always rule the rogue the winner using lolsurprise attack.

if the crux of the rogue's opening gambit is comprised of un-shadowing and sneak-attacking with blinding strike, which targets what? reflex right? ok, the priest does this:
 
we've established in this scenario that basically the rogue will always strike first. ok, i can accept that. the caveat is that he HAS to land a successful blinding strike, and there is a high possibility of it critting and causing a deathblow.

obviously this is an unwinnable scenario for any class if we're talking about dying from a sneak attack basically, which is legit, sure, oh and btw the fighter's auto-rez with double stats + endurance throws a big monkey wrench into the rogue's opening gambit, but back to the priest:

rogue lands a full blinding strike attack, priest is blinded, severely debuffed, etc, now according to the game blinding strike has an Average Casting Time and is a Full Attack: Melee type, which includes a recovery time. (lol no escape from the recovery talk)

blinded priest whips out Casting Time: "Fast" - Barring Death's Door and makes himself immune to death and unable to be targeted by friend or foe while also regenerating endurance for a set time of 10 seconds. this means he'll finish casting it before the rogue is fully recovered from his full attack ability.

once the 10 seconds expire and the priest becomes vulnerable once more (note that the priest retains mobility, unlike withdraw!), he can Casting Time: Fast - watchful presence, immediately afterwards before ANYTHING the rogue might attempt to strike him with, as all rogue abilities for disabling or killing are Average in time to use.

now that he's safe from the following, second "strike" and possibly getting one-shotted, he can safely and comfortably begin to to cast Casting Time: HALT - (rogue must save vs. Will, and the spell has +10 ACC modifier to boot) and if it grazes, which it probably will, (the game itself is proof enough of the stupid power affliction-grazing has) then rogue is Stuck, immobile, and the Priest then casts Casting Time: Average - Repulsing Seal on the floor, on the walls, on the ceiling, on the rogue's chest, wherever he freaking wants. he can keep it right on himself and then immediately cast BDD's again to become untargetable/immune while the repulsing seal remains active. it's really awesome that thing.

so anyway rogue goes pronezors then priest casts 9th level spell Avatar, casting time average, to buff himself to oblivion and then lay more traps on top of the prone rogue, effectively perma-stunlocking him as any movement he makes once his prone ends will set off the following trap. his only hope is to make the trap saves, but they exceed 100+ on a 14th level priest, dragon quality numbers heh.

if for whatever reason we allow them to bring in one magical item, heh, priest could use murrica arret to cast whisper of treason on the rogue while he's trap CC'd, charm him, then cast withdraw on him as he's now stuck immobile inside the healing cocoon, the priest can escape, or obviously place more magical traps that will auto-spring soon as withdraw ends and he takes any action whatsoever. remember withdraw does not grant mobility.

he can even cast Resurrection on the floor under himself, as it is a Revive AoE, not a targetable spell, and have maximum anti-rogue shenanigans insurance. the funniest thing he could do is be a priest of skaen and sneak-attack him to death while he's CC'd from priest traps/withdraw for max lol.

Priest has a ton of incredibly useful Fast Casting spells, ppl overlook them. also priest seals/traps are straight up fantasy-land stuff. an 18 INT priest, (21 with +2 int gear and +1 int God Boon from council of stars quest, forget which of the gods is the INT one), casts repulsing seal with a modifier easily above 120, so the graze is assumed, and the duration on a HIT is a ridiculous 10-15 seconds, on a graze it is 5-10 seconds and on a crit it ibasically makes the rogue's uninstall.exe activate. i once critted with it and had a dank spore "repulsed" for 33 secs true story 10/10 would play again.

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by aweigh0101

[Gairnulf]

The discussion regarding the Barbarian in this thread got me curious, and I decided to test the class myself.

 

Before someone proudly declares that they didn't read anything because it was too long, and not because they are too lazy to read a meaningful post, I'll summarize: I agree with brindle88. The Barbarian is a very handicapped class currently. Now that that's out of the way, to present my arguments.

 

How I do class testing is, I start a solo game on PotD. I think soloing the first chapter of the game gives you the best idea about a class' performance.

 

Advantages:

• The lack of party members allows you to have the most consistency when testing the character's combat performance. When you win, you win thanks to your abilities.
• Playing on PotD ensures that every tenth of a second, and every percentage point count. You have very little room for mistakes.
• By necessity, you get to become really good with that class.
• You often have to threorize and experiment with a few different builds with the same class.
• As a side effect to lots of game loading, you learn and test out the game's systems.
• As a side effect, you can confirm if soloing is possible with this class.

Disadvantages:

• Random Number Generation becomes disproportionately important. That's because if, with a party of 4 or 5, you may on average score 2-3 bad rolls, but will still do useful things thanks to a couple of characters' good rolls, when you have a party of just one, almost every roll has to be a good roll, even when you are faced with just one enemy.
• You don't get a chance to test out talent synergies between classes. Not that anyone has ever made attempts to test synergies between classes anyway, at least to the best of my knowledge. Yet as a result, a class that only shines when in a party, might make a bad impression when soloing. This again touches on the question if some classes experience a big jump in performance when in a party, compared to when playing solo, and if yes, which combinations of classes are the optimal ones.

You can consider each of the eleven classes as a subclass of one of two great classes - a Fighter or a Caster. The existence of many active and modal abilities makes the difference between the two great classes a bit blurry, but still, it's fairly obvious after you look at a class' class talents and abilities, if it's expected to shed blood/endurance on the front line, or to boost allies/nerf enemies from the back line.

 

Another typologization could be done concurrently to the first one, by the classes' base Deflection, Accuracy, and Endurance values. Combined with the set of abilities/talents/spells, they should give us a good idea of what is expected of a given character class.

 

Given this information, and using these metrics, what is expected of the Barbarian class?

• It has the most endurance, and is the class with the biggest health-to-endurance multiplier.
• It shares the second-worst deflection with the Rogue. The worst deflection, on paper, is the Wizard's, but it can be augmented very effectively in a number of ways by the wizard himself. So much so that if I have just a Barbarian and a Wizard in the party, it would be optimal to use the Wizard as the tank.
• That being said, we can say that the Barbarian and the Rogue share the worst Deflection among the font-line classes (if the Rogue is used on the front line).
• Accuracy-wise, the Barbarian resides in a second tier of classes, along with the Chanter, Cipher and Paladin, with the caveat that all these classes while being equal to the Barbarian class in base Accuracy, surpass it in Deflection - 25, 20 and 20 respectively, vs the Barbarian's lousy 15 base Deflection.

A final note on Accuracy/Deflection/Endurance. You should know that if you strive to complete all or most of the side quests and tasks, your character will spend the majority of the game somewhere around levels 8-11, which for a Barbarian means unmodified values of:

• 46-55 Accuracy (plus a flat 1 point of Accuracy for each point you increase Perception above 10)
• 36-45 Deflection (plus a flat 1 point of Deflection for each point you increase Resolve above 10)
• 160-208 Endurance (plus 5% for each point you increase Constitution above 10)

So, it's abysmal Deflection, mediocre Accuracy and a large health pool, which together with the class' abilities will try to compensate for these disadvantages. How will it manage that?

 

Regarding talents, all of the Barbarian's talents/abilities imply that it has to be used on the front line, so the AoE centered around him affects as many enemies as possible.

 

Therefore, by the class' nature, the Barbarian will often be engaged by multiple enemies. Being engaged by multiple enemies (above your engagement limit) results in the "Flanked" status effect, which gives a character a penalty of -10 Deflection. In some circumstances this could reduce the Barbarian to 0 deflection (or even under 0 if that's possible), meaning that pretty much every attack is a hit and every other attack is a Critical Hit. Even with the barbarian's large health pool, he can't withstand this kind of beating while maintaining a good DPS - in other words - not unless you stack up his DR and as a result reduce his DPS, in order to keep him in combat longer.

 

Knowing these things, what are the player's optimal strategies when distributing Primary Attributes scores?

 

In version 2.03, the game suggests, of all things, Might and Constitution as strongly recommended and intelligence and and dexterity as recommended. I might be mistaken about those two, because I don't have the game open, but even if I am, it doesn't matter, because they look pretty wrong to me.

 

For a solo build, what you want to give your character when it's from a front-line class is Accuracy and Action Speed, with Deflection also being important for those classes that can't boost their deflection through abilities, spells, etc.

 

The reasoning is that when you are fighting multiple enemies, statistically, you are at a disadvantage, because for each time when you get a chance to score a hit, they will get more than one chance to score a hit at you. The way to mitigate this disadvantage is to increase the probability of your scoring a hit and the frequency with which you have a chance to score a hit, i.e. your DPS. Everything else takes a secondary place.

 

This makes the Barbarian a bad choice for a solo build due to its naturally bad deflection and mediocre accuracy. When it comes to probability for a hit in combat, the Barbarian's best option is to go with double hatchets vs enemies with low or no DR (Skuldr Whelps), substituting it for a two-handed weapon when fighting targets with high DR (Tenfrith's abductors for example).

 

However, even with maximized Accuracy and Deflection, the Barbarian is still no match for a simple Shade in the second level of the temple of Eothas, or for a group of three Xaurips, one of them a Champion (the encounter in Anslog Compass). With some degree of optimizing your path through Chapter I's areas, you may be able to raise enough money to buy the item in Gilded Vale that will let you summon an Animat. This might make it feasible to reach Caed Nua at level 5, but I'm having a hard time imagining the Battle in Caed Nua's main hall vs two Shades and 4 Phantoms (or were they 5).

 

The Barbarian fails vs Shades in the following way - he gets hit by the Shade with 74 Accuracy vs his 30-something - 40 deflection at most. The secondary effect of the attack - Dazed - also hits with 74 Accuracy vs his 40-ish Fortitude. From then on, the Shade needs a few more strikes to bring the Barbarian down, and it scores them without error, simply because the Barbarian's Deflection is too low. It may be possible to still get through this battle with Potion of Wizard's Double, but then the final battle before reaching the end of the quest would still be too difficult for the Barbarian.

 

I am currently soloing the game with a Wizard, lvl 6 right now. It's much easier to solo with a Wizard due to his CC capabilities, which provide for a multitude of approaches to combat vs many enemies at once (Bewildering Spectacle, Chill Fog, etc) plus the option to temporarily turn yourself into a high-DPS, high-Deflection fighter (Hardened Veil/Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff).

 

Spending points for the attributes which become necessary for a viable solo build leave the Barbarian crippled in his most important attributes - Intelligence and Might, which allow the class to take advantage of his Carnage talent. Even with these maxed out, the Barbarian needs yet more points, to compensate for his lack of Deflection, either by pumping up Constitution or Resolve.

 

Trying to compensate for the lack of Deflection by betting it all on DR and pumping up DR through equipment would just sink your DPS. Then you'd have to put hope in your accuracy, to score fewer attacks but more consistent hits. That would have been an option for the Barbarian if it weren't also handicapped in its Accuracy.

 

This is why my conclusion is that the Barbarian sucks for a solo build.

 

Normally if a class fails as a soloing class, that means it's a weak class in my book, but I'll ponder a bit on its chances when part of a party.

 

I guess the Deflection deficiency will be less noticeable in a party, where the Barbarian can take advantage of the Fighter attracting all the enemies' attention, and of the Priest's buffs. Still, the Barbarian would remain vulnerable to AoE attacks and will more often than not succumb before the battle has ended.

 

The Wild Sprint talent also inclines me to think that the Barbarian would be more viable in a party than soloing.

 

However, with all this being said, I fail to grasp the point of the Barbarian as a class. If it's the Carnage ability, then that's in most cases no more significant than the effects of Chill Fog for example. If it's the afflictions he can cause on enemies, there are back-line caster classes who can cause these afflictions (and more), with less risk to themselves. The Barbarian doesn't provide boosts to allies, so all this leaves him with the role of an AoE damage-dealer and afflictions dispenser, only with the disadvantage of being very exposed to enemy aggro. That's too few advantages against too many disadvantages.

 

Conclusion: unlike in the IE games, in PoE a big health bar can't compensate for an inadequate Armor Class. This means that a class that's betting on light armor, front-line attacks, and a large health pool, is doomed to feel inferior to classes with smaller health pools but rating higher in the PoE's equivalent of Armor Class.

 

P.S. I challenge anyone arguing for the Barbarian's viability to post their videos of how they solo all or parts of Chapter I.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gairnulf

[brindle88]

The discussion regarding the Barbarian in this thread got me curious, and I decided to test the class myself.

 

Before someone proudly declares that they didn't read anything because it was too long, and not because they are too lazy to read a meaningful post, I'll summarize: I agree with brindle88. The Barbarian is a very handicapped class currently. Now that that's out of the way, to present my arguments.

 

How I do class testing is, I start a solo game on PotD. I think soloing the first chapter of the game gives you the best idea about a class' performance.

 

Advantages:

1. The lack of party members allows you to have the most consistency when testing the character's combat performance. When you win, you win thanks to your abilities.
2. Playing on PotD ensures that every tenth of a second, and every percentage point count. You have very little room for mistakes.
3. By necessity, you get to become really good with that class.
4. You often have to threorize and experiment with a few different builds with the same class.
5. As a side effect to lots of game loading, you learn and test out the game's systems.
6. As a side effect, you can confirm if soloing is possible with this class.

Disadvantages:

1. Random Number Generation becomes disproportionately important. That's because if, with a party of 4 or 5, you may on average score 2-3 bad rolls, but will still do useful things thanks to a couple of characters' good rolls, when you have a party of just one, almost every roll has to be a good roll, even when you are faced with just one enemy.
2. You don't get a chance to test out talent synergies between classes. Not that anyone has ever made attempts to test synergies between classes anyway, at least to the best of my knowledge. Yet as a result, a class that only shines when in a party, might make a bad impression when soloing. This again touches on the question if some classes experience a big jump in performance when in a party, compared to when playing solo, and if yes, which combinations of classes are the optimal ones.

You can consider each of the eleven classes as a subclass of one of two great classes - a Fighter or a Caster. The existence of many active and modal abilities makes the difference between the two great classes a bit blurry, but still, it's fairly obvious after you look at a class' class talents and abilities, if it's expected to shed blood/endurance on the front line, or to boost allies/nerf enemies from the back line.

 

Another typologization could be done concurrently to the first one, by the classes' base Deflection, Accuracy, and Endurance values. Combined with the set of abilities/talents/spells, they should give us a good idea of what is expected of a given character class.

 

Given this information, and using these metrics, what is expected of the Barbarian class?

1. It has the most endurance, and is the class with the biggest health-to-endurance multiplier.
2. It shares the second-worst deflection with the Rogue. The worst deflection, on paper, is the Wizard's, but it can be augmented very effectively in a number of ways by the wizard himself. So much so that if I have just a Barbarian and a Wizard in the party, it would be optimal to use the Wizard as the tank.
3. That being said, we can say that the Barbarian and the Rogue share the worst Deflection among the font-line classes (if the Rogue is used on the front line).
4. Accuracy-wise, the Barbarian resides in a second tier of classes, along with the Chanter, Cipher and Paladin, with the caveat that all these classes while being equal to the Barbarian class in base Accuracy, surpass it in Deflection - 25, 20 and 20 respectively, vs the Barbarian's lousy 15 base Deflection.

A final note on Accuracy/Deflection/Endurance. You should know that if you strive to complete all or most of the side quests and tasks, your character will spend the majority of the game somewhere around levels 8-11, which for a Barbarian means unmodified values of:

• 46-55 Accuracy (plus a flat 1 point of Accuracy for each point you increase Perception above 10)
• 36-45 Deflection (plus a flat 1 point of Deflection for each point you increase Resolve above 10)
• 160-208 Endurance (plus 3% for each point you increase Constitution above 10)

So, it's abysmal Deflection, mediocre Accuracy and a large health pool, which together with the class' abilities will try to compensate for these disadvantages. How will it manage that?

 

Regarding talents, all of the Barbarian's talents/abilities imply that it has to be used on the front line, so the AoE centered around him affects as many enemies as possible.

 

Therefore, by the class' nature, the Barbarian will often be engaged by multiple enemies. Being engaged by multiple enemies (above your engagement limit) results in the "Flanked" status effect, which gives a character a penalty of -10 Deflection. In some circumstances this could reduce the Barbarian to 0 deflection (or even under 0 if that's possible), meaning that pretty much every attack is a hit and every other attack is a Critical Hit. Even with the barbarian's large health pool, he can't withstand this kind of beating while maintaining a good DPS - in other words - not unless you stack up his DR and as a result reduce his DPS, in order to keep him in combat longer.

 

Knowing these things, what are the player's optimal strategies when distributing Primary Attributes scores?

 

In version 2.03, the game suggests, of all things, Might and Constitution as strongly recommended and intelligence and and dexterity as recommended. I might be mistaken about those two, because I don't have the game open, but even if I am, it doesn't matter, because they look pretty wrong to me.

 

For a solo build, what you want to give your character when it's from a front-line class is Accuracy and Action Speed, with Deflection also being important for those classes that can't boost their deflection through abilities, spells, etc.

 

The reasoning is that when you are fighting multiple enemies, statistically, you are at a disadvantage, because for each time when you get a chance to score a hit, they will get more than one chance to score a hit at you. The way to mitigate this disadvantage is to increase the probability of your scoring a hit and the frequency with which you have a chance to score a hit, i.e. your DPS. Everything else takes a secondary place.

 

This makes the Barbarian a bad choice for a solo build due to its naturally bad deflection and mediocre accuracy. When it comes to probability for a hit in combat, the Barbarian's best option is to go with double hatchets vs enemies with low or no DR (Skuldr Whelps), substituting it for a two-handed weapon when fighting targets with high DR (Tenfrith's abductors for example).

 

However, even with maximized Accuracy and Deflection, the Barbarian is still no match for a simple Shade in the second level of the temple of Eothas, or for a group of three Xaurips, one of them a Champion (the encounter in Anslog Compass). With some degree of optimizing your path through Chapter I's areas, you may be able to raise enough money to buy the item in Gilded Vale that will let you summon an Animat. This might make it feasible to reach Caed Nua at level 5, but I'm having a hard time imagining the Battle in Caed Nua's main hall vs two Shades and 4 Phantoms (or were they 5).

 

The Barbarian fails vs Shades in the following way - he gets hit by the Shade with 74 Accuracy vs his 30-something - 40 deflection at most. The secondary effect of the attack - Dazed - also hits with 74 Accuracy vs his 40-ish Fortitude. From then on, the Shade needs a few more strikes to bring the Barbarian down, and it scores them without error, simply because the Barbarian's Deflection is too low. It may be possible to still get through this battle with Potion of Wizard's Double, but then the final battle before reaching the end of the quest would still be too difficult for the Barbarian.

 

I am currently soloing the game with a Wizard, lvl 6 right now. It's much easier to solo with a Wizard due to his CC capabilities, which provide for a multitude of approaches to combat vs many enemies at once (Bewildering Spectacle, Chill Fog, etc) plus the option to temporarily turn yourself into a high-DPS, high-Deflection fighter (Hardened Veil/Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff).

 

Spending points for the attributes which become necessary for a viable solo build leave the Barbarian crippled in his most important attributes - Intelligence and Might, which allow the class to take advantage of his Carnage talent. Even with these maxed out, the Barbarian needs yet more points, to compensate for his lack of Deflection, either by pumping up Constitution or Resolve.

 

Trying to compensate for the lack of Deflection by betting it all on DR and pumping up DR through equipment would just sink your DPS. Then you'd have to put hope in your accuracy, to score fewer attacks but more consistent hits. That would have been an option for the Barbarian if it weren't also handicapped in its Accuracy.

 

This is why my conclusion is that the Barbarian sucks for a solo build.

 

Normally if a class fails as a soloing class, that means it's a weak class in my book, but I'll ponder a bit on its chances when part of a party.

 

I guess the Deflection deficiency will be less noticeable in a party, where the Barbarian can take advantage of the Fighter attracting all the enemies' attention, and of the Priest's buffs. Still, the Barbarian would remain vulnerable to AoE attacks and will more often than not succumb before the battle has ended.

 

The Wild Sprint talent also inclines me to think that the Barbarian would be more viable in a party than soloing.

 

However, with all this being said, I fail to grasp the point of the Barbarian as a class. If it's the Carnage ability, then that's in most cases no more significant than the effects of Chill Fog for example. If it's the afflictions he can cause on enemies, there are back-line caster classes who can cause these afflictions (and more), with less risk to themselves. The Barbarian doesn't provide boosts to allies, so all this leaves him with the role of an AoE damage-dealer and afflictions dispenser, only with the disadvantage of being very exposed to enemy aggro. That's too few advantages against too many disadvantages.

 

Conclusion: unlike in the IE games, in PoE a big health bar can't compensate for an inadequate Armor Class. This means that a class that's betting on light armor, front-line attacks, and a large health pool, is doomed to feel inferior to classes with smaller health pools but rating higher in the PoE's equivalent of Armor Class.

 

P.S. I challenge anyone arguing for the Barbarian's viability to post their videos of how they solo all or parts of Chapter I.

Well you have taken that comparison to a whole new level.

 

My comparisons where based on a party of 5-6 playing POTD with 1 barb included in the party, I cannot possibly imagine playing a Barb solo on POTD. I wouldn't have attempted it because as I said in my analysis I was able to compare a late level barb to a late level fighter or rogue via hire mercanaieries and building them up to level 13. The comparisons where dismal at best for reasons I described in my detailed analysis.

 

Your post will be critised by the carnage lovers who think they can apply afflictions with the carnage ability (reduced 10 acc with carnage and a barbarian with a lower accuracy then fighters and rogues anyway)  with affliction applying weapons eg prone, stun ect..................this may work on groups of xantrips but I cant make it work on much else.

[Gairnulf]

I think Carnage reduces Deflection, and not Accuracy, contrary to what the wiki says. I can't start the game right now to check though.

 

While playing solo Barbarian, I just went through the areas up to Caed Nua and compared the Barbarian's performance to what I saw the Wizard could do. I'm skeptical about the Barbarian being able to reach level 5 on solo PotD with any build, but I haven't exhausted all options yet. Maybe getting the Animat-summoning horn will change things, but even then it would be a very tough playthrough.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Parasol_Syndicate]

5% Per point of CON, not 3. 

 

But quality post all the same, Gairnulf. Gets into some of the longwinded explanations at the heart of that class's sorry state.

Me, I'm more concerned about Barbarian PCs, and adding them to a full party than Solo play- and I'm still not seeing them as worthy investments.

 

One of my bigger issues is that an intellectual barbarian with poor determination, as the game mechanics encourage you to make, is absurd.  

To model a base, primal state like berserking or frenzy with mere cunning and reasoning is ignorant of the very appeal of the class!

Edited November 4, 2015 by Parasol_Syndicate

[brindle88]

I think Carnage reduces Deflection, and not Accuracy, contrary to what the wiki says. I can't start the game right now to check though.

the primary target will hit with full accuracy but every other target affected by the carnage ability will be hit with -10 accuracy

[brindle88]

5% Per point of CON, not 3. 

 

But quality post all the same, Gairnulf. Gets into some of the longwinded explanations at the heart of that class's sorry state.

Me, I'm more concerned about Barbarian PCs, and adding them to a full party than Solo play- and I'm still not seeing them as worthy investments.

 

One of my bigger issues is that an intellectual barbarian with poor determination, as the game mechanics encourage you to make, is absurd.  

To model a base, primal state like berserking or frenzy with mere cunning and reasoning is ignorant of the very appeal of the class!

The barbs 2 strong points :

 

1. The large health pool

2. The carnage ability

 

The barbs weak points:

 

1. Just about every possible thing that is relevant in this game apart from the above

 

The 2 strong points I found weren't relevant anyway as I didn't have enough stats to allocate to leave my constitution high because I needed those stats elsewhere because the barb is a melee character and intelligence is also important for the barb.

 

Carnage will apply secondary minimal damage at a reduced accuracy, but that's about it. You can't apply afflictions to mobs with affliction applying weapons on POTD consistently enough with carnage to make that build relevant, and if you did, you would basically need your entire party built around buffing the barb to make it even half viable. I would rather have my casters doing damage and stunning/ petrifying not babysitting at useless class