Most overpowered builds post patch 2.02

[dudex]

u do know that armor recovery is a useless stat in many situations. u pretty much go naked or super light armor as rogue/rangers. I played my rogue with an enchanted cloth almost the entire game. my ranger was just naked.

 

Also Attack speed % is better then amour recovery because it can be applied with and without armour penalties.

 

rangers and monks do more damage then the fighter (they have sustainable atk spd buffs). Fighters arent even close to the level of rogues in terms of damage. Also second chance seems to be nerfed to being once per rest making it kinda crappy.

 

now surviving and taking hits fighters is way better then every class except monk. (not counting casters)

[brindle88]

u do know that armor recovery is a useless stat in many situations. u pretty much go naked or super light armor as rogue/rangers. I played my rogue with an enchanted cloth almost the entire game. my ranger was just naked.

 

Also Attack speed % is better then amour recovery because it can be applied with and without armour penalties.

 

rangers and monks do more damage then the fighter (they have sustainable atk spd buffs). Fighters arent even close to the level of rogues in terms of damage. Also second chance seems to be nerfed to being once per rest making it kinda crappy.

 

now surviving and taking hits fighters is way better then every class except monk. (not counting casters)

You are obvisouly not playing on POTD, on hard difficulty any class with any build could beat the game without dying once. Most of us here are IE veterans and we are implying the toughest builds on the toughest difficulty. A reduced armour recovery time on POTD (sacred grace for fighter) is one of if not the strongest talent to choose from including all classes

[dudex]

dude i only play on potd. dont knock it until you try it. the way u instantly hate on certain classes and play styles shows your inexperience in the game.

Edited November 2, 2015 by dudex

[brindle88]

dude i only play on potd. dont knock it until you try it. the way u instantly hate on certain classes and play styles shows your inexperience in the game.

Well that's probably not the best response as I clearly play on POTD, this greatly off topic anyway, the point I am making is barbs don't belong on this thread, honey belong on the " weakest builds post patch 2.03" thread

[dudex]

im not saying you dont play potd.

 

the point is u dont try what people stated works for them because you are close minded in your thinking so you keep posting and saying how bad things are when their opinion differs from yours.

 

if fighters were the "most op" class in 2.02 why were they buffed in 2.03??  clearly im missing something.

[brindle88]

im not saying you dont play potd.

 

the point is u dont try what people stated works for them because you are close minded in your thinking so you keep posting and saying how bad things are when their opinion differs from yours.

 

if fighters were the "most op" class in 2.02 why were they buffed in 2.03??  clearly im missing something.

How am I clouded minded on my thinking, I suggested barbs where weak at the start of this thread and when people vouched for them I went and built the builds they suggested and posted my response from experience gained trialing the barb.

 

We have not said the fighter is the most op build we have (almost ) unanimously agreed the wizard is, again go back and read the whole thread

[aweigh0101]

technically any unit can solo the game naked without ever taking a hit if you kite and cheese. nothing wrong with that. i'm a big fan of passives though, and having to activate swift strikes or whatever every single damn trash-mob encounter is way too much work for me. i like to take care of my wrist. like sensuki says it becomes banal and rote. i prefer classes with good passives (fighters and paladins) so i can concentrate my micro APM powerz on the casters, who are FAR more interesting to control.

but this is all personal taste, of course. the game is easy enough anyway, even on potd, that i like to play a game with myself of "how long can i go using just auto-attack". if you spec and gear your units in certain ways you can CC/dps and tank damage without ever clicking on a single ability. until you run into spirits or vithracks of course heh.

[dudex]

 

im not saying you dont play potd.

 

the point is u dont try what people stated works for them because you are close minded in your thinking so you keep posting and saying how bad things are when their opinion differs from yours.

 

if fighters were the "most op" class in 2.02 why were they buffed in 2.03??  clearly im missing something.

How am I clouded minded on my thinking, I suggested barbs where weak at the start of this thread and when people vouched for them I went and built the builds they suggested and posted my response from experience gained trialing the barb.

 

We have not said the fighter is the most op build we have (almost ) unanimously agreed the wizard is, again go back and read the whole thread

 

 

do you even know what you are posting anymore?

 

read topic title. then read your first post

[brindle88]

 

 

im not saying you dont play potd.

 

the point is u dont try what people stated works for them because you are close minded in your thinking so you keep posting and saying how bad things are when their opinion differs from yours.

 

if fighters were the "most op" class in 2.02 why were they buffed in 2.03??  clearly im missing something.

 

How am I clouded minded on my thinking, I suggested barbs where weak at the start of this thread and when people vouched for them I went and built the builds they suggested and posted my response from experience gained trialing the barb.

We have not said the fighter is the most op build we have (almost ) unanimously agreed the wizard is, again go back and read the whole thread

 

do you even know what you are posting anymore?

 

read topic title. then read your first post

No you read ALL my posts, where I have listened to the opinion of others and agreed with them on some points and disagreed with them on others. This is called being rational and open minded, hence why I have changed some of my view points.

[dudex]

i have read all your posts..

 

Do you really think you are open minded when trying different classes/playstyles? that post you made about trying the monk class is laughable and just about the most close minded thing ive read on these forums.

 

this topic really needs to be called best class suited for brindle88's liking and personal playstyle.

[brindle88]

i have read all your posts..

 

Do you really think you are open minded when trying different classes/playstyles? that post you made about trying the monk class is laughable and just about the most close minded thing ive read on these forums.

 

this topic really needs to be called best class suited for brindle88's liking and personal playstyle.

What's that background noise?

[AndreaColombo]

For the record, Pilferer's Grip reduces armor penalty by 10%, not 16%. It is perfectly possible to get 0 recovery (or very close to that) without using them (Gauntlets of Accuracy are a better investment for that slot.)

 

But that's beside the point, since the OP is discussing classes with no items or bonuses.

 

Druids in Spiritshift form can be very good damage dealers. They dual-wield 5 DR bypass claws that can be brought to 10 with Vulnerable Attack (20% speed penalty offset by Two Weapon Fighting.) Their base damage is pretty high and their natural armor has 0% recovery penalty. Taking Wildstrike, Greater Wildstrike, and the relevant elemental talent + Savage Attack, Hiravias matched (sometimes outclassed) the Lady of Pain on single-target damage.

 

Of course, Spiritshift is 1/encounter and has a limited duration. But then Hiravias has spells to cast. All in all, Druids are pretty good.

[brindle88]

well, we know attacks consist of two phases, melee attacks i mean: attack phase, which can ONLY be sped up by the DEX bonus, and the recovery phase (the yellow bar) which is the part affected by the recovery penalty on armors and such. a fighter can pick the armored grace ability for -20% recovery time, and this is substracted directly from the recovery penalty on whatever armor they're wearing. if you add the pilferer's grip item then it's an extra -16% on the armor's recovery time penalty.

a fighter wearing full plate for example, which has -50% recovery time penalty would then have -24% penalty instead, or in other terms have the same recovery as someone wearing Hide Armor (the one right before leather armor), but have 12 DR instead of 5 DR. 

now we take into account DEX bonus, which speeds up both phases, the attack AND the recovery, and it literally makes the fighter the fastest unit at the moment. you can give him full plate and have him be faster than someone wearing a robe, for example, give or take 5%, or give him a hide armor and have him attack at the same speed as someone NAKED.

when we take guns into account they have 3 phases, attack/recovery/reload, and their longest phase is by far the reload one which is only affected by DEX, same as the attack phase. bows on the other hand don't have a reload phase. 

in any case, you're right of course rogue will out-damage this speedy fighter on crits, but the fighter will be EXACTLY %50 tankier (rogue base deflection is 15, fighter's new base deflection is 30), with equal Accuracy as the rogue, 25% more  base endurance and 50% more base health and with access to two ability picks that give total of +25% dmg (weapon spec and weapon mastery). sure, not as crazy as the +55% the rogue's class abilities tack on but hey, still good!

obv. not mentioning the +20% from savage attack or the vulnerable attack since those two talents are universal. he'll crit less, as well, but will hit more often, and be even further tankier thanks to critical defense, unbending and unbroken. remember he can instant-cast +15 ACC for base duration of 15 seconds per-encounter too.

dual-wielding carries the least recovery out of all melee setups, being a base 20 frame of attack and 20 frame of recovery if using two fast weapons, and 30 attack / 30 recovery frames if using two average speed weapons. this means the armored grace + pilferer's grip fighter with 18-20 DEX dual-wielding Scimitars will out-DPS the Rogue on HITS, guaranteed, due to being faster overall than the rogue, so even if the rogue has more +DMG modifiers it'll even out, UNLESS the rogue starts critting. The rogue crits will put him ahead in the damage-per-swing race then. It all depends on the roll of the dice, then, since both have comparable ACC.

footnote: enemy immunities will put a legitimate dent in the rogue's reliance on sneak-attacks by the way, which is why i'm not taking into account the huge sneak attack dmg modifier when talking about this. a lot of mob types now are immune to blindness, hobbling, weakening, poison and sickening. watch the video posted in the 2.03 patch news announcement thread.

basically any mob that doesn't have eyes can't be blinded, any mob that doesn't have a biological system is immune to sickening/weakening, any mob that doesn't need to rely on their legs or floats can't be knocked prone, and any mob that doesn't have either corporeal form or is generally bipedal in nature is immune to almost everything; also enemy types that lack things such as a brain, for example a primordial ooze, or a dank spore, can't be charmed or confused, so on and so forth. the immunities are actually fairly logical IMHO, although the guy in the video is whining non stop about them.

flanking will still enable rogues to out-DPS anything of course, but this means rogues will require even more micro than before to guarantee sneak attacks, or relying on ciphers flanking spell. i dislike too much micro but that's personal state.

I agree with a lot of what has been written here, it basically comes down to:

 

1. A fighter with armoured grace and all the weapon specialisations with superior tankiness

 

Vs

 

2. A rogue with sneak attacks, afflictions, critical hits and deathblows.........who will have a significant lower deflection

 

It's a pretty close call, I mean there would be a lot of luck involved in this match up, but also remember the rogue has shadowing beyond (invisibility), this will give the rogue guaranteed first hit and if the rogue crits a blinding strike on that first hit the rogue will probably win.

 

But then also remember the fighter has the talent unbroken, which is basically a self resurrect. Will the rogue be able to down it a second time?

 

It's very close.

[Abbzug]

You've phrased this as a discussion but you don't seem to want any that disagrees with you. And that synergies like equipment choices, buffs and debuffs (i.e. things that actually exist in the game) don't belong in this discussion, but that PvP (something which isn't in the game) should be included is a bit stupefying. It all feels very artificial.

[Ruminate]

patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho

 

-20% recovery from armored grace

-16% recovery from pilferer's grip

 

second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)

 

= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.

 

gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.

 

Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.

 

dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.

 

PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.

 

Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.

 

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3

 

Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.

 

The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

[AndreaColombo]

^ The only thing that affects everything is Dexterity. Everything else only affects recovery, including the Monk's Swift Strikes.

 

For all intent and purposes, Fighter is the class that can achieve the fastest attack+recovery time in heavy armor.

Edited November 2, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[Ruminate]

^ The only thing that affects everything is Dexterity. Everything else only affects recovery, including the Monk's Swift Strikes.

 

For all intent and purposes, Fighter is the class that can achieve the fastest attack+recovery time in heavy armor.

 

If Swift Strike's attack speed is actually recovery speed (i'm going to test this myself later today), then i'm at a loss on how you think the fighter's -20% bonus can achieve a faster recovery time in heavy armor over the monk's -25% bonus.

[AndreaColombo]

Everything in the game that says "attack speed" only affects recovery.

 

Fighters can achieve greater speed because Swift Strikes doesn't stack with Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, whereas Armored Grace does.

Edited November 2, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[brindle88]

 

patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho

-20% recovery from armored grace

-16% recovery from pilferer's grip

second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)

= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.

gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.

Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.

dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.

PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.

Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.

 

 

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3

 

Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.

 

The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

[brindle88]

 

patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho

-20% recovery from armored grace

-16% recovery from pilferer's grip

second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)

= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.

gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.

Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.

dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.

PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.

Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.

 

 

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3

 

Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.

 

The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

Ahhh I see, the armoured grace will only effect the recovery time that is extended by wearing the armour, not the entire recovery speed, that's frickin BS, thats also why they must have buffed it up to 20% in patch 2.03

[Vorad]

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

 

The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Vorad

[brindle88]

 

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

 

The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.

Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,

 

1. Normal recovery time

2. Armour recovery time

 

So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs

[brindle88]

 

 

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.

Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,

1. Normal recovery time

2. Armour recovery time

So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs

If this is correct then armoured grace is severely less powerful then I thought, if this is incorrect armoured grace is probably the most powerful talent in the game

[Vorad]

 

 

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.

Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,

 

1. Normal recovery time

2. Armour recovery time

 

So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs

 

I don't see the contradiction if 1 sec attack from 2 hander then you get 2 sec normal recovery and on top of that 50% penalty from armor meaning 0.5 * 2(Normal) = 1 sec recovery penalty from armor, with the ability instead you get 30% penalty due to armor leading to a 0.6 sec recovery penalty due to armor instead of 1 sec. The way I see it from the chart is that armor recovery penalty is applied based on normal recovery.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Vorad

[brindle88]

 

 

 

Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else

The way I see it from the chart is: two handed weapon + heavy armor has a 4 sec attack cycle: 1s attack + 2 sec recovery + 1 sec penalty(50%). With a -20% recovery on your heavy armor you would be at 30% recovery penalty or 0.6 second recovery penalty due to armor for a total of 3.4 sec attack cycle instead of 4 sec... that's a boost of (1- 3.4/4) x 100% = 15% dps.

Nah, I think, a sawyer has stated on there, there is two different types of recovery periods,

 

1. Normal recovery time

2. Armour recovery time

 

So armoured grace and items like pilfers grip will only affect the armour recovery time not the entire recovery time. Can a senior person please confirm this is correct? We need a senior no newbs

 

I don't see the contradiction if 1 sec attack from 2 hander then you get 2 sec normal recovery and on top of that 50% penalty from armor meaning 0.5 * 2(Normal) = 1 sec recovery penalty from armor, with the ability instead you get 30% penalty due to armor leading to a 0.6 sec recovery penalty due to armor instead of 1 sec. The way I see it from the chart is that armor recovery penalty is applied based on normal recovery.

 

do you agree there are 2 types of recovery, normal recover and then armour recovery and armoured grace will only affect the armour recovery?