Pillars of balancing

[Elerond]

Carsomyr in BG2 is just +5/+6 Two handed sword that has additional enhancements that give 50% magic resistance, do +5/6 extra damage against enemies with chaotic evil alignment and let its wielder cast dispel magic 3 times in day. (I took it as example as its uniqueness, memorably and good design has been praised in this topic, also in BG2's lore it's one of the most powerful blades in Faerûn)

 

Just to point out that PoE's design with unique weapons compared to high quality generic stuff mostly follows same ideology that IE games had.

[Fenixp]

"Really stand out"? Quite the opposite. Categorizing every weapon by the same scale kills all notion of uniqueness.

But it obviously is an estoc. Why should swinging one estoc cause more physical damage than swinging a different estoc? It's the unique attributes which should give a blade its uniqueness, not a bloody damage modifier. The design philosophy which keeps one steel sword from causing 500% more damage than another, precisely the same steel sword is by far one of my favourite design decisions in PoE.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Fenixp

[Gromnir]

Carsomyr in BG2 is just +5/+6 Two handed sword that has additional enhancements that give 50% magic resistance, do +5/6 extra damage against enemies with chaotic evil alignment and let its wielder cast dispel magic 3 times in day. (I took it as example as its uniqueness, memorably and good design has been praised in this topic, also in BG2's lore it's one of the most powerful blades in Faerûn)

 

Just to point out that PoE's design with unique weapons compared to high quality generic stuff mostly follows same ideology that IE games had.

sure, is just a magical two-handed sword... that is +5/+6 and has all those additional enhancements you mentioned... as well as the often overlooked dispel-on-hit, which seems frequent forgotten. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gairnulf]

Why should swinging one estoc cause more physical damage than swinging a different estoc?

Even if we forego all "fantasy world-related" reasons, which in itself is absurd when discussing weapons in a game set in a fantasy world - because of differences in quality.

 

It's the unique attributes which should give a blade its uniqueness, not a bloody damage modifier.

I agree. And my point is, there is nothing unique about the so-called "unique" weapons. You can enchant a regular estoc and raise it to higher quality than the estoc you get from killing the strongest enemy in the game. I don't see how this is good design.

 

@Elrond, it's the presentation of the weapons' stats which I wanted to point out as bad. It doesn't allow the player to quickly assess - is this weapon better or worse than what I currently have? How much better or how much worse? For comparison:

A lot more memorable and easy to read, isn't it?

 

Just for the record, I was making energetic suggestions that the item descriptions be reworked back in the beta. This isn't to say I think the developers are stupid, and no one but me sees these things. I imagine the devs were too short on time though, and such issues were considered a luxury to fix.

[Elerond]

 

Carsomyr in BG2 is just +5/+6 Two handed sword that has additional enhancements that give 50% magic resistance, do +5/6 extra damage against enemies with chaotic evil alignment and let its wielder cast dispel magic 3 times in day. (I took it as example as its uniqueness, memorably and good design has been praised in this topic, also in BG2's lore it's one of the most powerful blades in Faerûn)

 

Just to point out that PoE's design with unique weapons compared to high quality generic stuff mostly follows same ideology that IE games had.

sure, is just a magical two-handed sword... that is +5/+6 and has all those additional enhancements you mentioned... as well as the often overlooked dispel-on-hit, which seems frequent forgotten. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

My point was that if you give generic two-handed sword +5/+6 quality bonus, then only things that make Carsomyr special are those additional enhancements. To point out that those additional enchantments make it unique and more powerful even if its base scale is same as "generic +5/+6 magical two-handed sword".

[DYWYPI]

Carsomyr in BG2 is just +5/+6 Two handed sword that has additional enhancements that give 50% magic resistance, do +5/6 extra damage against enemies with chaotic evil alignment and let its wielder cast dispel magic 3 times in day. (I took it as example as its uniqueness, memorably and good design has been praised in this topic, also in BG2's lore it's one of the most powerful blades in Faerûn)

 

Just to point out that PoE's design with unique weapons compared to high quality generic stuff mostly follows same ideology that IE games had.

 

The problem doesn't lie in being a sword with enchantments, since that's obviously what all enchanted swods are, it lies in being a sword with genericized enchantments. When I find a sword that dispels magic on hit in an IE game, it's not "Enchantment: Spelldrainer (4pts)", it's a sword that dispels magic when it hits, probably the only one with that specific effect in the whole game. Unique, idiosyncratic magical items give a much greater sense of discovery and wonder than those with a selection of standardized effects balanced on a visible 12-point scale.

[Elerond]

 

@Elrond, it's the presentation of the weapons' stats which I wanted to point out as bad. It doesn't allow the player to quickly assess - is this weapon better or worse than what I currently have? How much better or how much worse? For comparison:

A lot more memorable and easy to read, isn't it?

 

I would just say that using God hammer as example is poor choice as for example in quick comparison one could think that Carsomyr could be better weapon than god hammer, because it seems to do more damage and has those nice dispel effects and so on, it really can compete with god hammer which is most overpowered weapon in the game in right hands, because setting character's strength to 25 is just too good effect.

 

But anyway in my opinion PoE mostly gives critical stats of weapon in format that is better and easier to read than BG2.

[Gairnulf]

I would just say that using God hammer as example is poor choice as for example in quick comparison one could think that Carsomyr could be better weapon than god hammer, because it seems to do more damage and has those nice dispel effects and so on, it really can compete with god hammer which is most overpowered weapon in the game in right hands, because setting character's strength to 25 is just too good effect.

Since you're replying to claims I haven't made, I'll quote what I said one more time:

@Elrond, it's the presentation of the weapons' stats which I wanted to point out as bad. It doesn't allow the player to quickly assess - is this weapon better or worse than what I currently have? How much better or how much worse?

But anyway in my opinion PoE mostly gives critical stats of weapon in format that is better and easier to read than BG2.

And in my opinion such a claim is ridiculous.

A lot better and easier to read than BG2. Right.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Gairnulf]

The reason PoE's descriptions can hardly ever be easier to read, while still providing the full stats of an item, is in the way they are calculated.

 

Combining additive and multiplicative modifiers is the main cause of this mess.

[Elerond]

 

Carsomyr in BG2 is just +5/+6 Two handed sword that has additional enhancements that give 50% magic resistance, do +5/6 extra damage against enemies with chaotic evil alignment and let its wielder cast dispel magic 3 times in day. (I took it as example as its uniqueness, memorably and good design has been praised in this topic, also in BG2's lore it's one of the most powerful blades in Faerûn)

 

Just to point out that PoE's design with unique weapons compared to high quality generic stuff mostly follows same ideology that IE games had.

 

The problem doesn't lie in being a sword with enchantments, since that's obviously what all enchanted swods are, it lies in being a sword with genericized enchantments. When I find a sword that dispels magic on hit in an IE game, it's not "Enchantment: Spelldrainer (4pts)", it's a sword that dispels magic when it hits, probably the only one with that specific effect in the whole game. Unique, idiosyncratic magical items give a much greater sense of discovery and wonder than those with a selection of standardized effects balanced on a visible 12-point scale.

 

 

PoE has too little number of weapon special enchantment compared to number of unique weapons that it has, which is root cause for that feeling that there isn't really unique weapons. But there aren't two unique weapons that are same type and have same enchantments, but as there are more weapon types than there are special enchantments and addition to that there are more than one unique weapon of every weapon type, which means that weapons that have enchantments that any other weapon don't have are rare or non-existent.

 

PoE uses 4-point scale for its items currently (normal, fine [which is comparable to +1 in IE games], exquisite [which is comparable to +2 in IE games], superb [which is comparable to +3 in IE games])

[Leferd]

 

But it obviously is an estoc. Why should swinging one estoc cause more physical damage than swinging a different estoc? It's the unique attributes which should give a blade its uniqueness, not a bloody damage modifier. The design philosophy which keeps one steel sword from causing 500% more damage than another, precisely the same steel sword is by far one of my favourite design decisions in PoE.

 

 

To be precise, one does not swing an estoc; it's meant to be a thrusting weapon.

[Fenixp]

Even if we forego all "fantasy world-related" reasons, which in itself is absurd when discussing weapons in a game set in a fantasy world - because of differences in quality.

We are comparing two estocs of superb quality here - quality of craftmanship is already represented in weapon stats.

 

I agree. And my point is, there is nothing unique about the so-called "unique" weapons. You can enchant a regular estoc and raise it to higher quality than the estoc you get from killing the strongest enemy in the game. I don't see how this is good design.

Yup, agree 100%. While there are some weapons with interesting modifiers, especially in soulbound weapons, most are kind of boring. There's a lot of unique weapons which have powerful effects, but most of them are neither particularly fun nor interesting.

 

And in my opinion such a claim is ridiculous.

jpgimg

A lot better and easier to read than BG2. Right.

Oh it's way easier to read, purely thanks to contextual help.

 

To be precise, one does not swing an estoc; it's meant to be a thrusting weapon.

How to get out of this situation and keep my cred...

NO, YOU'RE STUPID!

Edited October 24, 2015 by Fenixp

[Elerond]

The reason PoE's descriptions can hardly ever be easier to read, while still providing the full stats of an item, is in the way they are calculated.

 

Combining additive and multiplicative modifiers is the main cause of this mess.

 

So you can with glance tell how much for example weapon's how probable is that Grom Fayer's ability to kill Stone Golems, Clay Golems and Ettins will take effect on a hit and you don't find it laborious that you need to scroll past of lore part of item before you can see its stats and so on. I don't know which has more difficult math for weapon stats, but I am quite sure that in both systems it can be difficult to say which weapon of two about equals is actually better in math wise if you just glance their stats, as they both have their oddities that can make such math quite complex in some situations.

[DYWYPI]

 

PoE has too little number of weapon special enchantment compared to number of unique weapons that it has, which is root cause for that feeling that there isn't really unique weapons. But there aren't two unique weapons that are same type and have same enchantments, but as there are more weapon types than there are special enchantments and addition to that there are more than one unique weapon of every weapon type, which means that weapons that have enchantments that any other weapon don't have are rare or non-existent.

 

PoE uses 4-point scale for its items currently (normal, fine [which is comparable to +1 in IE games], exquisite [which is comparable to +2 in IE games], superb [which is comparable to +3 in IE games])

 

 

They're still drawn from a standard set of effects. Outside of soulbound weapons, which are a step in the right direction even if it's a shame there's so few and that they're class-exclusive and restricted to weapons only, you're never going to find a new magical item with an unexpected, unique ability - or even a unique version of a common type of ability. All elemental enchantments do 25% extra damage as that element., all bane weapons deal 25% more damage and have +5 accuracy against their enemy type, and so on. It makes balancing easier, but it also makes items feel a lot less special. I'd much rather have slightly less laser-focused item balance, and more weird and idiosyncratic weapons, armor, and wondrous items.

 

Enchantments use a 12-point scale for balance, which is displayed on the item card. Fine/Exceptional/Superb count for 2/4/6 points respectively.

[Elerond]

 

 

PoE has too little number of weapon special enchantment compared to number of unique weapons that it has, which is root cause for that feeling that there isn't really unique weapons. But there aren't two unique weapons that are same type and have same enchantments, but as there are more weapon types than there are special enchantments and addition to that there are more than one unique weapon of every weapon type, which means that weapons that have enchantments that any other weapon don't have are rare or non-existent.

 

PoE uses 4-point scale for its items currently (normal, fine [which is comparable to +1 in IE games], exquisite [which is comparable to +2 in IE games], superb [which is comparable to +3 in IE games])

 

 

They're still drawn from a standard set of effects. Outside of soulbound weapons, which are a step in the right direction even if it's a shame there's so few and that they're class-exclusive and restricted to weapons only, you're never going to find a new magical item with an unexpected, unique ability - or even a unique version of a common type of ability. All elemental enchantments do 25% extra damage as that element., all bane weapons deal 25% more damage and have +5 accuracy against their enemy type, and so on. It makes balancing easier, but it also makes items feel a lot less special. I'd much rather have slightly less laser-focused item balance, and more weird and idiosyncratic weapons, armor, and wondrous items.

 

Enchantments use a 12-point scale for balance, which is displayed on the item card. Fine/Exceptional/Superb count for 2/4/6 points respectively.

 

 

They aren't drawn from a standard set of effects, which are those effects that you can enchant in any weapon. Unique weapons have special enchantments that such that they can be found only in unique items (with couple exceptions that have unique name but no special enchantments).

 

fine gives +4 to accuracy and x1.15 Damage, exquisite gives +8 to accuracy and x1.3 Damage and superb gives +12 accuracy and x1.45 Damage, meaning that it is actually only 4-point scale of quality enchantments.

 

For example +1 quality bonus in IE games gives +1 Thac0 bonus (which means +5% to hit change, where +4 accuracy in PoE means +4% to hit change), +1 to damage roll and -1 to Speed Factor. 

[Cantousent]

I'd like to see a few more idiosyncratic effects also. Just not stacked so high on early access weapons. ...But there is something to be said for unique effects.

[DYWYPI]

 

 

They aren't drawn from a standard set of effects, which are those effects that you can enchant in any weapon. Unique weapons have special enchantments that such that they can be found only in unique items (with couple exceptions that have unique name but no special enchantments).

 

fine gives +4 to accuracy and x1.15 Damage, exquisite gives +8 to accuracy and x1.3 Damage and superb gives +12 accuracy and x1.45 Damage, meaning that it is actually only 4-point scale of quality enchantments.

 

For example +1 quality bonus in IE games gives +1 Thac0 bonus (which means +5% to hit change, where +4 accuracy in PoE means +4% to hit change), +1 to damage roll and -1 to Speed Factor. 

 

 

That doesn't make them not standard effects. You can't enchant a weapon with Marking or Stunning and so on, but they're nonetheless predictable, standard effects, and ones presented not as a special, unique effect for a specific item or couple of items, but as a generic property, complete with fixed values for the effect and a number you can use to compare it with other generic properties. Spell-effect-on-trigger enchantments are perhaps the exception there and could make for some more interesting items, if they weren't so sparsely used.

 

I don't understand why you're discounting enchantments other then Fine, Exceptional and Superb. Not all Superb items are equal, but - at least in theory - all 8/12 items should be roughly as good as each other, or at least have sets of enchantments that are equally powerful before considering synergy. It's that level of fine, systematic balance, with all possible effects carefully genericized and weighed against each other - and perhaps most crucially(?), that weighing-up being presented directly to the player rather than having happened under-the-hood while the items were being developed - that spoils the sense of idiosyncrasy and spontaneity about finding new items,

Edited October 24, 2015 by DYWYPI

[Elerond]

 

 

 

They aren't drawn from a standard set of effects, which are those effects that you can enchant in any weapon. Unique weapons have special enchantments that such that they can be found only in unique items (with couple exceptions that have unique name but no special enchantments).

 

fine gives +4 to accuracy and x1.15 Damage, exquisite gives +8 to accuracy and x1.3 Damage and superb gives +12 accuracy and x1.45 Damage, meaning that it is actually only 4-point scale of quality enchantments.

 

For example +1 quality bonus in IE games gives +1 Thac0 bonus (which means +5% to hit change, where +4 accuracy in PoE means +4% to hit change), +1 to damage roll and -1 to Speed Factor. 

 

 

That doesn't make them not standard effects. You can't enchant a weapon with Marking or Stunning and so on, but they're nonetheless predictable, standard effects, and ones presented not as a special, unique effect for a specific item or couple of items, but as a generic property, complete with fixed values for the effect and a number you can use to compare it with other generic properties. Spell-effect-on-trigger enchantments are perhaps the exception there and could make for some more interesting items, if they weren't so sparsely used.

 

I don't understand why you're discounting enchantments other then Fine, Exceptional and Superb. Not all Superb items are equal, but - at least in theory - all 8/12 items should be roughly as good as each other, or at least have sets of enchantments that are equally powerful before considering synergy. It's that level of fine, systematic balance, with all possible effects carefully genericized and weighed against each other - and perhaps most crucially(?), that weighing-up being presented directly to the player rather than having happened under-the-hood while the items were being developed - that spoils the sense of idiosyncrasy and spontaneity about finding new items,

 

 

That is opinion question, so there is no right answer, but game has two pools of enchantments one that can be enchanted to every weapon and one that consist of enchantments that are already in the weapons, which I call special enchantments. And as I previously said there aren't enough special enchantments in the game to give every unique weapon their own unique enchantment because there is so much different types of weapons (also Obsidian originally planed that every or at least most of the enchantments in game would be such that players themselves could enchant them in the weapons, but they decided against this after community asked that there should be more unique weapons)

 

In common enchantments there are quality enchantments

Fine, Exceptional and Superb  (there are also Damaging and Accurate enchantments that go from 1 to 2 giving either same damage or accuracy bonus so that 1 is same as fine and 2 is same as exceptional, there is also level 3 versions of these but player can't enchant them)

 

Lash or secondary damage enchantments that give lash damage bonus, which is its own type of damage in PoE.

There are 4 types of common lash enchantments Burning Lash, Corrosive Lash, Freezing Lash and Shocking Lash, which all gives you +25% of lash damage in element corresponding with its name.

 

And Slaying enchantments, which give weapon additional accuracy and damage against certain type of enemies.

Kith (humans, elves, dwarfs, etc.), Beast, Primordial, Spirit, Vessel, and Wilder. 

 

Weapons can be given one enchantment of each of these categories, so one quality, one lash and one slaying 

 

Then there are unique/special enchantment pool which have following enchantments

Predatory  Convert +10% of Hits to Crits 

Reliable  Convert +30% of Grazes to Hits 

Draining  20% of Damage restored as Endurance 

Speed  +20% Attack Speed 

Coordinating  +4 Accuracy and x1.25 Damage when attacking same target as an ally 

Vicious  x1.2 Damage against Prone, Stunned, Flanked enemies 

Wounding  Wounding: x0.25 Damage over time (5 sec) 

Stunning  Attacks can Stun on Crits 

Spell Striking  Attacks cast Spell on crit (once per encounter) 

Minor Spellbind  grants Spell as active ability (x uses per rest) 

Major Spellbind  grants Spell as active ability (x uses per rest) 

Guarding  +1 Enemies Engaged 

Rending  +3 DR bypass 

Interfering  +5 Deflection 

Overbearing  Crits can inflict Prone 

Annihilation  +0.5 Crit Damage multiplier 

Valiant  x1.2 Damage and +10 Accuracy when below 50% Endurance 

Crushing Lash  x1.25 Crush Damage 

Disorienting  Inflicts -5 All Defenses for 6 sec on Hit 

Marking  +10 Accuracy granted to an ally attacking the same target 

Of [Attribute] +/-[Amount]  +/-[Amount] to [Attribute] 

[Damage Type]-Proofed  +3 DR to [Damage Type] 

[Class] only can only be equipped by [Class]

 

So why I discount other enchantments when I speak about fine, exceptional and superb (also damaging and accurate) is because they are enchantments that lock each other away, but they don't prevent or remove any other enchantments.

 

All enchantment also have enchantment point cost and items can only have enchantments up to 12 points worth of enchantments to prevent too powerful items (balance feature that was added during beta because of player feedback).

[Gairnulf]

I think it's blatantly obvious that a +5 weapon is superior to weapons below +5. And also, that doing PoE's items' maths is more difficult than scrolling past the description.

[brindle88]

 

 

They aren't drawn from a standard set of effects, which are those effects that you can enchant in any weapon. Unique weapons have special enchantments that such that they can be found only in unique items (with couple exceptions that have unique name but no special enchantments).

 

fine gives +4 to accuracy and x1.15 Damage, exquisite gives +8 to accuracy and x1.3 Damage and superb gives +12 accuracy and x1.45 Damage, meaning that it is actually only 4-point scale of quality enchantments.

 

For example +1 quality bonus in IE games gives +1 Thac0 bonus (which means +5% to hit change, where +4 accuracy in PoE means +4% to hit change), +1 to damage roll and -1 to Speed Factor.

 

 

That doesn't make them not standard effects. You can't enchant a weapon with Marking or Stunning and so on, but they're nonetheless predictable, standard effects, and ones presented not as a special, unique effect for a specific item or couple of items, but as a generic property, complete with fixed values for the effect and a number you can use to compare it with other generic properties. Spell-effect-on-trigger enchantments are perhaps the exception there and could make for some more interesting items, if they weren't so sparsely used.

 

I don't understand why you're discounting enchantments other then Fine, Exceptional and Superb. Not all Superb items are equal, but - at least in theory - all 8/12 items should be roughly as good as each other, or at least have sets of enchantments that are equally powerful before considering synergy. It's that level of fine, systematic balance, with all possible effects carefully genericized and weighed against each other - and perhaps most crucially(?), that weighing-up being presented directly to the player rather than having happened under-the-hood while the items were being developed - that spoils the sense of idiosyncrasy and spontaneity about finding new items,

 

That is opinion question, so there is no right answer, but game has two pools of enchantments one that can be enchanted to every weapon and one that consist of enchantments that are already in the weapons, which I call special enchantments. And as I previously said there aren't enough special enchantments in the game to give every unique weapon their own unique enchantment because there is so much different types of weapons (also Obsidian originally planed that every or at least most of the enchantments in game would be such that players themselves could enchant them in the weapons, but they decided against this after community asked that there should be more unique weapons)

 

In common enchantments there are quality enchantments

Fine, Exceptional and Superb  (there are also Damaging and Accurate enchantments that go from 1 to 2 giving either same damage or accuracy bonus so that 1 is same as fine and 2 is same as exceptional, there is also level 3 versions of these but player can't enchant them)

 

Lash or secondary damage enchantments that give lash damage bonus, which is its own type of damage in PoE.

There are 4 types of common lash enchantments Burning Lash, Corrosive Lash, Freezing Lash and Shocking Lash, which all gives you +25% of lash damage in element corresponding with its name.

 

And Slaying enchantments, which give weapon additional accuracy and damage against certain type of enemies.

Kith (humans, elves, dwarfs, etc.), Beast, Primordial, Spirit, Vessel, and Wilder. 

 

Weapons can be given one enchantment of each of these categories, so one quality, one lash and one slaying 

 

Then there are unique/special enchantment pool which have following enchantments

Predatory  Convert +10% of Hits to Crits 

Reliable  Convert +30% of Grazes to Hits 

Draining  20% of Damage restored as Endurance 

Speed  +20% Attack Speed 

Coordinating  +4 Accuracy and x1.25 Damage when attacking same target as an ally 

Vicious  x1.2 Damage against Prone, Stunned, Flanked enemies 

Wounding  Wounding: x0.25 Damage over time (5 sec) 

Stunning  Attacks can Stun on Crits 

Spell Striking  Attacks cast Spell on crit (once per encounter) 

Minor Spellbind  grants Spell as active ability (x uses per rest) 

Major Spellbind  grants Spell as active ability (x uses per rest) 

Guarding  +1 Enemies Engaged 

Rending  +3 DR bypass 

Interfering  +5 Deflection 

Overbearing  Crits can inflict Prone 

Annihilation  +0.5 Crit Damage multiplier 

Valiant  x1.2 Damage and +10 Accuracy when below 50% Endurance 

Crushing Lash  x1.25 Crush Damage 

Disorienting  Inflicts -5 All Defenses for 6 sec on Hit 

Marking  +10 Accuracy granted to an ally attacking the same target 

Of [Attribute] +/-[Amount]  +/-[Amount] to [Attribute] 

[Damage Type]-Proofed  +3 DR to [Damage Type] 

[Class] only can only be equipped by [Class]

 

So why I discount other enchantments when I speak about fine, exceptional and superb (also damaging and accurate) is because they are enchantments that lock each other away, but they don't prevent or remove any other enchantments.

 

All enchantment also have enchantment point cost and items can only have enchantments up to 12 points worth of enchantments to prevent too powerful items (balance feature that was added during beta because of player feedback).

All these item enhancements you have mentioned have no flare and are generally quite boring. We need more of the exciting spell striking abilities like that stiletto you get early on with jolting touch. You no to add a bit more excitement instead if a sword that let's you "plus 1 engaged " or an axe that has " -3 damage reduction". All these token and nearly useless enhancements aren't even worth while trying to go out of your way to get them. I hardly ever purchase items for merchants in pillars and one weapon is almost just the same as the next weapon, but slightly different, so no real need to look for different ones

[brindle88]

Owe and buy the way obsidian just officially sold half a million copies of pillars. Looks like we will be getting a pillars of eternity 2 and maybe even a 3.

 

Good work obsidian

[Elerond]

I think it's blatantly obvious that a +5 weapon is superior to weapons below +5. And also, that doing PoE's items' maths is more difficult than scrolling past the description.

 

It is also similarly blatantly obvious in PoE that superb weapons are better than exceptional, fine and normal weapons.

 

In PoE's damage bonus from quality enchantment already calculated in description, where in IE games you actually need to do the math by yourself (but as damages are smaller and damage bonuses are integers the math isn't that hard for one hit, but math becomes more complex when weapon gives character additional attacks then its much harder to tell how much damage character can do in one combat round, especially in late game where your character can achieve maximum number of attacks per combat round).

 

And most difficult math in PoE is lash damage because it is calculated as it is.  But other wise you usually don't need to do any maths only look if weapon has additional damage multiplier (like from slaying enchantment).

[Gromnir]

people is not honest. tell us that uniqueness is what made carsomyr kewl is bunk.  if carsomyr were a +2 weapon that dispelled on a hit, nobody would speak o' it.  there were a talking sword in bg2, but by mid-point o' game, nobody used it.  people tell us that unique is what they want.  bah.  unique is only neato if the unique ability is powerful.   so again, you make a weapon with a unique AND powerful ability that is usable only by the folks who had foreknowledge or dumb luck on their side?  is just one o' the things bg2 did wrong.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am all in favor o' a few genuine unique abilities attached to weapons, but the goal should be to balance such... and ere on the side o' weak for unique.  

Edited October 24, 2015 by Gromnir

[Cantousent]

I think it was in this thread that Gairnulf mentioned something that I think hits the nail on the head in terms of the items. Those different stats are quite important, and as the player sets the difficulty higher, the way the different stats inter-relate becomes more apparent and more interesting, but because there's more granularity in the effects, nothing really strikes a lot of players. The stats really *do* mean something, and even moreso at higher difficulty settings, but strictly speaking, the game does *not* force the players to explore them very much. ...But it's set up to be an extremely difficult game where all of the tinkering would make a huge difference. Converting a number of grazes to hits, for example, can be quite exciting in terms of its effect, but players can win battles with base proficiency with the system, even though the system would be far more rewarding if it required more attention to the stats. In a lot of ways, it reminds me of a game system... Rolemaster? Whatever. I'm talking about the one with all the charts and huge stat breakdowns for crits and fumbles and whatnot. I think that this game is Sawyer's dream of having a highly technical combat system but with compromised difficulty to make it more accessible. I find combat can be fun, but not as much fun as some of the other games I've played.

 

Getting back to items, I think going out on a limb and creating more unique effects would help create a few more memorable items, but there's no way to fix the fact that the game uses a lot of variable effects and those are pretty well represented by the current set of weapon and armor modifications. What the game *doesn't* need are a bunch of items that actually lower the base difficulty. Now, I have to admit, I've only finished once on nomral and I'm only somewhat through the hard setting. I don't have time to play as much as I should like, but once you get to PotD setting, I think you've already gone into quite rarefied territory. In terms of improving the base game for the most players, normal and hard is probably more important. ...And it might even be more like easy and normal for most players.

 

Edit: Forgot a not.

 

Second EDIT: ...And you've got a pretty good friendly but heated debate going here, brindle. Aren't you glad I didn't remove this thread? A lot of threads can be frustrating but we've got a good community here and things typically shake out pretty well. Sadly, that means I probably won't follow the thread as much now that it's going so smoothly, but quite interesting arguments in here.

[Gairnulf]

It is also similarly blatantly obvious in PoE that superb weapons are better than exceptional, fine and normal weapons. In PoE's damage bonus from quality enchantment already calculated in description, where in IE games you actually need to do the math by yourself (but as damages are smaller and damage bonuses are integers the math isn't that hard for one hit, but math becomes more complex when weapon gives character additional attacks then its much harder to tell how much damage character can do in one combat round, especially in late game where your character can achieve maximum number of attacks per combat round).

The math in the IE games is easier for me, because the values are immutable: 2d4+3 will always equal something in the range 5-11.

In PoE, a weapon's min/max damage varies depending on:

1) whose inventory it's in - the same fine sword will have different min/max damage in Eder's inventory and in Aloth's.

2) whether or not it's equipped

And you call that easier than the IE games? Also, as you say yourself, this doesn't take into account additional damage multipliers. For example, the "slaying kith 1.25x" I'll have to calculate on my own, if I know what I should apply it to in the first place (which I honestly don't know).

 

Regarding weapon damage per round being more difficult to calculate in the IE games due to multiple attacks - quite the opposite. It's in PoE where it's more difficult to calculate the time between attacks, because you have to know:

1. the number of frames for attack (for the specific weapon)

2. the number of frames for recovery

3. a modifier coming from the weapon setup - single weapon/weapon&shield/dual wield/two-handed

4. the modifier from Dexterity (in %)

5. the modifiers from weapon enchantments and positive/negative afflictions

6. modifiers to recovery coming from your armor

7. possibly other things I'm unaware of

8. Then you need to know in what order do you apply the percentage and multiplicative modifiers. No one knows that as far as I'm aware.

 

All that in order to know how many attacks per second you have (or how many seconds per attack, no matter). As you see, a lot more complicated than knowing you have 2/3 attacks per round in the IE games.

 

These calculations would be nearly impossible to do on-the-fly if Obsidian had documented all this info. And as we know, they never have. Whatever info we have is from players who have been hacking PoE's code and conducting their own experiments. For D&D it's enough to read D&D rulebooks at least, no decompiling .dlls is required, heh. So, after all this, the IE games' weapon damage is more difficult to read? Weapon descriptions are more difficult to read? Lol.

 

No. D&D was made for people playing PnP, with dice, and face to face. Whatever calculations were needed there, they only involve integers and absolute values (no percentages). It's meant to be used by people doing maths without calculators. To know your precise damage and speeds in PoE which was supposed to have a simple system, you need an Excel spreadsheet calculator.

 

That is why I say again - PoE's whole implementation of RtwP is profoundly and irredeemably botched (to refrain from using a stronger word), and should best be redesigned from the ground up for PoE2 with the goal that it should be possible for players to quickly gauge the quality of items and their chances to inflict damage vs an opponent.

 

And most difficult math in PoE is lash damage because it is calculated as it is.  But other wise you usually don't need to do any maths only look if weapon has additional damage multiplier (like from slaying enchantment).

Speaking about the "slaying" modifier - what is this modifier applied to? The base damage values, or the damage values adjusted for whoever is holding the weapon? And please give me a source for the info, because I haven't seen it anywhere. Edited October 24, 2015 by Gairnulf