Dragon Hate

[Gunnar.Maluf]

It would be amazing if you could target a certain area of enemies. This way they could design different parts of the Dragon with different resistances.

 

Imagine that you could discover which is the weak point of a dragon with lore, reading a book, talking. And those books, conversation lines could only be seen / talked about with a certain amount of lore points. If you don't have enough lore points you could still learn it through try and error. I would love this.

[Tigranes]

You're getting wiped by dragons, they must be only beatable by cheap tricks? But many people enjoy them and beat them without cheap tricks like spamming Adragan. How are you coming to the conclusion that dragons are just cheat fights?

 

Consider BG2 or IWD2 dragons. None of them could be described as "only beatable by cheap tricks". One or two tries make their strengths and weaknesses very clear, and it's relatively straightforward to strategically mitigate them (e.g. Shadow Dragon's level draining, Firkraag's breath attack).

 

In fact, POE's dragons aren't really designed much differently. They have one or two abilities that are powerful but also obvious, then they have strong defenses that need to be broken down. The thing is, even on POTD, most players can win most fights without really understanding how the system works - e.g. how to stack status effects that target a Fortitude save before using abilities that attack Fortitude, how to combine that with things like Scrolls of Valour and Accuracy, and how to do the same when defending. When you try to kill Adra or Alpine on, say, POTD without cheap tricks, that doesn't fly. You can't even come back with overpowered gear, because Adra was designed for max level in vanilla (consider how much easier Sky Dragon is). 

 

In other words, the dragons force a qualitatively different response from players in the same way ghosts' teleporting and paralysis force players to stop charging in with, what do you guys call it, tank and spank? The players who hate such enemies and demand that they be removed instantly tend to be players who just want to rinse and repeat the same thing. Dragons are a more extreme case, because there's less room to overcome these problems by just getting better gear or whatnot. 

 

So it's obvious that dragons are difficult. And arguably, one could argue that the defense values on, say, Alpine is simply too high, or that its damage output for the breath needs to be adjusted. (My one experience with Alpine on POTD is that it's a bit too loaded with super attributes, but one party and one try isn't ever enough for a conclusion.) But I've read nothing in this thread that actually tells me why they are cheaty fights where you are 'forced' to use cheap tricks. 

 

Furthermore, you say yourself the dragons are mostly optional. So drop the difficulty. Or don't worry, move on. You say you don't want to? OK. But, uh, isn't that like demanding cheeseburgers be taken off the menu because everybody has them, even though you don't ever need to order one?

[Cantousent]

I don't know, Tigranes. I mean, I didn't really think that the dragons in PoE were overboard in comparison with other games, but most of the examples I saw in the OP were from other games. *Generally* speaking, I don't think fights that require either tons of luck or 'trick' tactics are good design. Typically, unless there's a strong roleplay reason, I tend to appreciate potential fights that can be avoided through stealth, roleplay, or negotiation. PoE actually came through on that end pretty well in my opinion.

 

I tend to think that every big fight in the game should be tied in with the roleplaying aspect, which means you don't need those 'one or two tries' if you've played carefully. That's the rub. We old skoolers tend to expect to take a few tries on really hard fights. On the other hand, I really like the idea that AB proposed above about questing providing some buffs, info, or some other advantage.

 

More than dragon or some big creature fights, I really wish we could edge away from the ultimate end battle of all time fights.

[AnjyBelle]

@ Tigranes

 

Come on now, I know you can do better

 

Please read my OP again and then show me, where I wrote

"...only beatable by cheap tricks..."

 

Your proposal of "...one or two tries make their strengths and weaknesses very clear..." is called "meta gaming".

Some consider this close to cheating, right?

 

So, let's get back to the matter and stop constructing arguments.

 

In my eyes a good design enables the player to win fights by using skills and talents, doing preparing quests, acquire

appropriate equipment and so on.

 

Whenever luck, random generation of enemy moves (examples below) and / or a "cheap trick" to win is involved, I don't like it.

 

Just to give the player some totally op monsters to chew on is certainly not ... innovative. Of that sort we had enough during

the last 30 years. More than enough in my really not so humble opinion.

 

 

Examples:

 

In one game of the past the dragon had an attack called "wing buffet". Sometimes he used it, sometimes not. If he used it, the fight was mostly over, party was wiped.

Where is the logic? Why should someone not use the best weapon when danger is imminent?

 

With "luck" I don't mean the dice rolls. It's more like that what we saw in some MMOs, when there is a chance for a positive event

of 0,000001% to occur.

[Tigranes]

You stated that "Try to fight all these dragons in a regular way and you'll enter a valley of tears and frustration OR figure out the cheap trick." I am saying I disagree with your claim that there's no fun way to fight dragons, only cheap or frustrating ones. I love fighting dragons, although some of them certainly could be rebalanced to be less gimmicky (see below).

 

Fighting a dragon, dying, and then trying again with new strategies isn't "meta gaming". 

 

You spent most of your OP making these big claims rather than telling me exactly how, say, POE dragons or BG dragons are mechanically designed to destroy fair & fun fights, so it's hard for me to engage with specific points when they haven't been made. In your newest post too, you simply declare that they are "totally op monsters". You talk about a dragon with wing buffet, but you can't tell me what dragon it is, and you can' t tell me what exactly it does (I assume it wasn't just "9999 damage to everybody"), so how can anybody agree or disagree with that? 

 

Put simply: you say " a good design enables the player to win fights by using skills and talents, doing preparing quests, acquire

appropriate equipment and so on." I would argue that is exactly what the dragon fights are for the most part. Specifically, I would say the BG2 dragons are a fantastic example of such well designed fights, while the Adra Dragon is probably the weakest and the most gimmicky. 

 

If you have specific arguments to make rather than declarations, I'm all ears, of course. 

[Oralaina]

I don't know, Tigranes. I mean, I didn't really think that the dragons in PoE were overboard in comparison with other games, but most of the examples I saw in the OP were from other games. *Generally* speaking, I don't think fights that require either tons of luck or 'trick' tactics are good design. Typically, unless there's a strong roleplay reason, I tend to appreciate potential fights that can be avoided through stealth, roleplay, or negotiation. PoE actually came through on that end pretty well in my opinion.

 

I tend to think that every big fight in the game should be tied in with the roleplaying aspect, which means you don't need those 'one or two tries' if you've played carefully. That's the rub. We old skoolers tend to expect to take a few tries on really hard fights. On the other hand, I really like the idea that AB proposed above about questing providing some buffs, info, or some other advantage.

 

More than dragon or some big creature fights, I really wish we could edge away from the ultimate end battle of all time fights.

 

Yep.  100% agree.  If I could have my perfect SPMR game, it would be one where I could go through nearly the entire game without myriad silly fights - getting xp through roleplay, stealth, negotiation, or just plain luck (either failing to step in the crud, or somehow managing to avoid the only major disabling trap, or whatever).  Really hate fighting my way through a game that has potential for the other ways of solving issues....

 

I like the idea that the big fights should be part of the rp setup.  And I truly love AB's idea too!  That's brilliant!

[Tigranes]

I forgot to mention the RP proposal, which is unfair because that is in fact a specific point. I think the motivations behind the idea are good and I'm all for it, the trick would be how to implement it. Some games have done it before, where the questing prior to big baddie gives you some bonus or buffs or a special weapon. The issue is that such bonuses either turn the fight into a cheap trick (e.g. here's a big cannon you shoot the baddie with a couple times), or is rather negligible (here, +2 damage reduction!). 

 

Probably the best way is to focus on the information. They could well have integrated information about the Adra Dragon,  e.g. discovering little pieces of his scales or whatnot that give you tips, based on your Survival skill, etc., about his defenses, attacks... now that would be a very cool. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by Tigranes
spoilah

[Oralaina]

Tig, you forgot to spoiler that....

[AnjyBelle]

@ Tigranes

 

I think we can agree, when I say:

You derive pleasure from such fights and I don't. Not to discuss, because it's a matter of personal preference / taste.

 

My above examples are not part of PoE, just milestones on my way to become fed up with that kind of stuff.

 

BTW, the "9999 dmg to all in the party" is an easy one: I saw it in FF VII, when I fought the strongest Ultima Weapon.

It had a special attack which inevitably wiped the party. Sometimes it used it, sometimes not.

But that was not a dragon and therefore not an example for this thread.

 

The said wing buffet occurred in BG II, IIRC. It didn't necessarily kill everybody, but make them prone to get stomped, roasted

or slashed by the claws. Of course there was a "not cheap" way to win, too. You liked it, I didn't.

 

See my OP: It's not because these fights are tough. Tough fights are an integral component of any good RPG.

For me it's the illogicality. But of course, that's just me.

Edited September 24, 2015 by AnjyBelle

[lameover]

Dragon Haters Gonna Hate Dragons

BTW, DA:O dragon in the mountain was just freezed out all the fight

PoE dragons could be debuffed into oblivion if RNG is on your side.

Liked dragon in NWN2 when you could kill it solo with leveled monk and cold damage gloves.

[Tigranes]

Yes, my bad for the spoiler. Fixed.

 

 

 

You derive pleasure from such fights and I don't. Not to discuss, because it's a matter of personal preference / taste.

 

Exactly. That's why I questioned you when you made those claims. Dragons aren't cheaty trick monsters that force you to use dumb cheese to beat them - dragons are very challenging, optional enemies that some people enjoy fighting and others find frustrating. 

 

Your idea about RP'ing in information for dragons is cool. Otherwise, you still haven't explained what exactly is so terrible or illogical about them. There's nothing cheap about BG2 wing buffets - they are a regular ability playing by regular rules, just very powerful, and it makes perfect sense for dragons to have them both in the setting and in the gameplay context. FF7 Weapons did have cheap, cheaty tricks; when Ruby Weapon can randomly remove a party member from battle permanently, that's what I'd call frustrating. Of course, with, say, Emerald Weapon, you had to spend a long time going to extraordinary lengths in convoluted sidequests to even fight the thing.

[AnjyBelle]

I run out of ideas... how could I explain my point of view?

 

New try:

 

A dragon is... big. For such a creature a single human is just a tiny being, not more than a minor annoyance. Normally.

It should be like this: Dragon gets annoyed by some "heroes". Dragon yawns and stomps them into the ground

without a second thought. End of the so called fight.

 

But because it is "high fantasy" the things  run differently, as we all know. 

But we've seen other approaches, like I wrote about The Witcher II:

They needed a ballista there, nobody even thought about facing the beast in melee. Somewhat more logical.

 

I realize that I am rather alone with that point of view, but I can live with that.

 

In regard of the "wing buffet":

 

Where did I write that this attack is "cheap"?

It's absolutely ok. What I didn't like was the randomness, as if the devs wanted to show the gamers

"...look, normally you will die here. But to give you a chance, we made the wing buffet random."

Yeah! Great! We don't win because we are "better" or "skilled", we win because we were lucky.

 

What an achievement!

"..hey, did you hear? A bunch of loonies was lucky and killed the dragon, because the old beast was too stupid to fight!

I just hope they shove off soon. Don't like the idea to have these crazies around...."

 

I love challenges. I love tough fights. I love to see, that I developed my party in a good way.

When I can't win I start over and try it again, with a different approach.

 

But I need - said it often enough meanwhile - a certain logic. If you are lucky with the things how they are - good for you.

Before I forget: "High fantasy" does not necessarily exclude comprehensibility.

 

PS.:

I agree 100% to what you wrote about the FF VII Ultimas. Cheap and cheating.

Edited September 24, 2015 by AnjyBelle

[iLurk]

IIRC  Ultima Weapons gave you some time before using their one hit kill attack, no? It wasn't from start of combat or randomly. I mean you spent 10-30min fighting them so using a cheap one hit kill attack randomly would be frustrating as all hell but I don't remember that. I was a kid so I had high tolerance so that might be it. Its been a very long time since I played FF7 so my memory of it is extremely vague.

 

Isn't PoE supposed to be low level content? there are already 3-4 dragons I think? didn't play WM yet. BG1 had no dragons. BG2 was packed with them. 4 in SoA, 1 in Watcher's Keep and 3 IIRC in ToB but it was supposed to be high level content and end of a saga.

 

Adra's breath attack is cheap.

Edited September 24, 2015 by iLurk

[KDubya]

Cheap is immunity to a common melee damage type. Even cheaper is to have the minions and the Dragon immune to the same damage type. When I saw the minions were crush immune I thought "Guess I'll just send my two damage dealing monks at the Dragon instead. Have the others handle the minions." When I saw the Dragon was crush immune as well I loaded an earlier save and went somewhere else. Worst of all I think the best Monk specific equipment is in his horde to add insult to injury.

 

Why not make one of the Dragons, or any monster for that matter, immune to magic?

 

Piercing immune Dragons would be amusing for Rangers to handle or any ranged weapon user.

 

Normal monsters with immunities such as that are fine, you can get past them using un-optimized weapons. Fighting a Dragon on the other hand tends to require your best effort which is not possible for a Monk against a crush immune Dragon. His best weapon are fists (crush), Torment's Reach (crush), Flagellent's Path (crush). Sure he can grab a spear, even two of them, and poke at it but none of his special attacks will be possible.

 

At worst a spell caster would have to forego having a 20% elemental damage boost against an immune monster and have to use a different spell.

 

No other character class gets horse ****ed like this.

[AnjyBelle]

@ iLurk

 

The ultimate Ultima did not use the special 9999 dmg attack right from start.

As you wrote, the fight was very long. What effect would it have, when you start and get wiped the next second?

The devs were much more devious: They let you fight for ... say ... fifteen minutes and then it happened - or did not happen.

Or - as Tigranes described - you fought a long time and all the sudden the Ultima deletes one of your party-members for good.

To win this fight was not a question of skill, it was 100% luck.

 

Really, we can be thankful that nonsense like this is practically banned from good games nowadays.

 

Your question about low level content:

I don't think, that there is something like a limitation in PoE. You have appropriate enemies for every level. If something is too hard, just go elsewhere, make a level or two and return. Of course, when you try to face a certain dragon at level 6 or 7, you will have a hard time

 

@KDubya

 

In my eyes immunities are a declaration of bankruptcy.

 

Resistances? Yes. High resistances? Yes.

Immunities? Cheap nonsense.

 

Exceptions:

It's ok for a creature, which lives in ice caves to be immune to cold and - vice versa - for a fire elemental to be immune to fire.

But as long I can slash / crush / pierce a ghost (spectres and all that stuff), I see little reason for any other creature to be immune

against any form of physical dmg.

[lameover]

But... but they are so cuuute!

 

 

[dukefx]

If you want something cute, take a Sungazer

 

[hilfazer]

If you want something cute, take a Sungazer

 

 

It's an Ouroboros!

[dukefx]

Nah, it's just playing with its tail

[kanisatha]

This might be an unpopular view, but I've always wondered why dragons (in PoE and other similar games) have to always be enemies. Why can't we have dragons as allies? Or at least dragons that are friendly and with whom you can converse, engage in witty banter, exchange information, may be even get quests? Just my $0.02.

[dukefx]

All 3 dragons are quest related and you don't have to kill any of them to complete those quests.

[AndreaColombo]

Just my .02, but immunities as a concept make a lot of sense. The merits - or the lack thereof - of making the Alpine Dragon immune to crush damage are debatable, but "cheap nonsense" is being able to fireball a fire blight to death.

[dukefx]

Fight fire with fire they say

[gkathellar]

Just my .02, but immunities as a concept make a lot of sense. The merits - or the lack thereof - of making the Alpine Dragon immune to crush damage are debatable

 

Debatable? Are they? Really? Because I'm seriously interested in hearing an argument from someone - anyone - that justifies locking out any damage dealer who relies on crush weapons from meaningful participation in the fight.

 

but "cheap nonsense" is being able to fireball a fire blight to death.

 

What if a fireball has such intensity and such raw, chaotic power that the fire blight simply can't hold together in it, and its spiritual matter gets swept away as part of the blaze? Honestly, if you're capable of dealing so much damage that you push through a blight's elemental DR, that seems legit to me.

 

The conceptual issue is really one of minimum damage, so why not just grant certain creatures immunity to minimum damage of particular types, rather than grant them immunity to those types altogether and shut down awesome a player's (or monster's) ability to go beyond the impossible?

Edited September 26, 2015 by gkathellar

[AndreaColombo]

Debatable? Are they? Really? Because I'm seriously interested in hearing an argument from someone - anyone - that justifies locking out any damage dealer who relies on crush weapons from meaningful participation in the fight.

 

I'm not necessarily in favor of the Alpine Dragon's immunity to crush damage, but I can think of a couple of arguments off the top of my head. First thing's first, it is the player that is supposed to react to the game world and adapt to enemies, not the other way around—unless, of course, you just wanted a game you could mindlessly cut through like butter without ever changing anything that you do. If you build your character around doing crush damage only all the time, you willingly pigeonhole them into a niche; can't complain if not all creatures in the game world adapt to your character's strength by becoming weak to it. It is on you to adapt your tactics/strategies to a fight; not on the game to adapt to your character build.

 

The game offers weapons that do multiple damage types. Some of them do crush damage + something else. You could win most fight with crush damage, then run into the one fight where your usual thing isn't viable and you need to adapt. Swapping to a weapon that does two different damage types is one way of doing that. Besides, most if not all weapon focus talents include all damage types, so you can switch to a weapon that does that particular damage type that you need without losing your +6 Accuracy bonus.

 

What if a fireball has such intensity and such raw, chaotic power that the fire blight simply can't hold together in it, and its spiritual matter gets swept away as part of the blaze? Honestly, if you're capable of dealing so much damage that you push through a blight's elemental DR, that seems legit to me.

 

 

Honestly, that doesn't make much sense at all. A fire blight is made of fire; how can it possibly burn to death if burning is its very existence? When was the last time you could put a fire off by adding more fire to it?

Edited September 26, 2015 by AndreaColombo