Is there a reason Boots of Evasion exist?

[Teioh_White]

 

I'm a big fan of doing away with random loot altogether. RNG is a terrible system, and a dev any game should try hard not lean on it. But kudos to taking 'I dont' like RNG' and going all the way to 'I want every item at the start.' Maybe those boots of evasion give a minor boost to leaps of logic as well.

 

Could it be because it sounds like the reason you don't like random drops and less than stellar equipment is because you only want all the best equipment all the time and from there it's not much of a leap at all to just provide it at the start?

 

No, it's that RNG is poor design by and large. I love a game where you can't get everything, as you the player have to parcel out resources. It's part of the reason the gameplay is so horrible in games Skyrim. I only put in that post the option of a later merchant, just to try to solve another problem in this game, way too much money so you can buy everything you want. I don't -want- to be able to buy everything, get everything. I want to be able to plan and priortize.

 

Shadowrun Hong Kong's a great example, strict money limitations limit what you can get, so you have to pick and choose. But you, the player, have that choice, not some dumb RNG process. I think I was underselling the bonus to leap those boots are giving ya.

[Rathlord]

No, it's that RNG is poor design by and large.

 

Lot of personal opinion in that statement. RNG is not, in itself, poor design. There are games and even genres that do it incredibly well (roguelikes come to mind as an obvious example, though the concept has been done poorly there before as well).

 

Some people don't like RNG, but don't confuse that with it being objectively bad. If you want to make the argument that RNG in PoE is poorly implemented go right ahead. I don't necessarily disagree. But RNG is no more "bad" in a void than any other common gaming concept.

[spardeous]

 

 

Like Rathlord said, not every unique item needs to be good, great, or insanely powerful in a single player game. This item (and others) flesh out the magical world a bit more by putting in items enchanted by lowly wizards. It's a nice, immersion-building touch by the devs.

I don't find them to be immersion enhancing. If they were going for immersive, why is body armor the only thing that affects DR? Why not helm/gloves?

 

Speaking of faulty logic and this thread:

 

"X" doesn't increase my immersion, therefor "Y"

 

Is not a particularly compelling argument. Yes, helms and gloves not giving DR might sacrifice some immersion for the sake of gameplay balance. But, sorry, you don't get that as an excuse to discount having anything add immersion to the game.

 

The point was that adding a handful of useless items to the game does not add to immersion. There are already enough useless items(such as gloves/helmets and the 20 million normal weapons/armor you find throughout the game). Supplementing a lower tier enchant system with borderline useless magical items is far less immersive than having a comprehensive enchanting system because it yoinks freedom away from the player and forces them to adhere to the RNG. Your argument about gloves and helms not giving DR or even emulating basic properties of the genuine articles has nothing to do with 'sacrificing for gameplay balance' - infact, it's pure laziness on the part of the devs. You're telling me helmets and gloves being magical is somehow more balanced than giving them the properties of, uh, *actual* helmets and gloves? Why is this even being argued as a trade-off? Why not both, like every other RPG/D20 game on the market? Why replace a good working system with something vastly inferior?

Edited September 18, 2015 by spardeous

[Oralaina]

RNG now is not really any different in main than rolling dice in AD&D tabletop in the mid-70s.  Lot faster now, being done by the computer.... but the point is still the same.

[wanderon]

RNG now is not really any different in main than rolling dice in AD&D tabletop in the mid-70s.  Lot faster now, being done by the computer.... but the point is still the same.

 

Indeed as in not knowing the outcome ahead of time and having to deal with it! 

[Teioh_White]

I'm not sure if we're being needlessly pedantic, or if you really want me to through why combat rolls in a game with control over what influence  those rolls is different from having a random loot system.

[Rathlord]

 

The point was that adding a handful of useless items to the game does not add to immersion. There are already enough useless items(such as gloves/helmets and the 20 million normal weapons/armor you find throughout the game). Supplementing a lower tier enchant system with borderline useless magical items is far less immersive than having a comprehensive enchanting system because it yoinks freedom away from the player and forces them to adhere to the RNG. Your argument about gloves and helms not giving DR or even emulating basic properties of the genuine articles has nothing to do with 'sacrificing for gameplay balance' - infact, it's pure laziness on the part of the devs. You're telling me helmets and gloves being magical is somehow more balanced than giving them the properties of, uh, *actual* helmets and gloves? Why is this even being argued as a trade-off? Why not both, like every other RPG/D20 game on the market? Why replace a good working system with something vastly inferior?

 

 

Items with no stats are useless. Agreed. Items with stats are not items without stats. You can't use an argument about items without stats to bolster your argument about items with stats. You're getting clogged up in completely unrelated stuff. If you want to discuss it, clean out all the complaints about helms and gloves and boots not having stats that I already agree with and get back to me. Again, you make the false assumption that two things that aren't mutually exclusive (having lower tier magic items and having a better enchanting system) somehow devalue each other. These things aren't related at all, and your logic completely falls apart. Whether or not there's an enchanting system you like has no impact on the immersiveness of weaker magic items. Then you again confuse the difference between game balance and realism. That's two different discussions, but you somehow mashed them together in a way that, again, makes no logical sense (You're telling me helmets and gloves being magical is somehow more balanced than giving them the properties of, uh, *actual* helmets and gloves?). Balanced is balanced regardless of realism. Realism is realism regardless of balance. Stop thinking they're related.

 

I get it. You don't like it. It's okay to not like things. But please don't pretend that it's logical and everyone needs to agree with you. I can lay this out in diagrams for you if you want, but that's really time consuming and you seem bright enough to learn.

[Katarack21]

 

 

Why are they even considered magical? They're about 1/8th as effective as a minor magical item, marginally boosting your ability to react by *gasp* providing slightly better traction than a bare foot!

 

Jokes aside, they're basically just boots.

 

Uh...no....they increase your reflex, man. You see that +2 to reflex? It makes you move just slight faster when reacting on reflex. The best tread in the world won't do that, that's minor magic.

 

I usually get this item and socket it on somebody while I wait for something better to come along. It's not great, but it's not supposed to be great, it's a lowbie item. Everybody forget that NWN has Boots of Reflex +1?

 

I think you need to stop and consider what saves are actually measuring.

 

instinct is only a small part of it, and there's no guarantee that boosts are even referring to instinct alone. By the logic you're purporting here, rocket skates would not affect your reflex score even though they would most likely cut reaction time in half. By the same logic, having a sheet of tempered metal between your head and a club moving at 80 MPH doesn't amount to any meaningful difference. Shoes? "Naw man, they just keep your feet warm."

 

Yea, it's hard to imagine why athletes and soldiers wear helmets, gloves, and shoes. I mean, what are they trying to prove?

 

Rocket boots wouldn't improve your reflex, they'd improve your movement speed. Reflex, dexterity, and movement speed are interrelated but are not the same thing. That's why dexterity INFLUENCES your reflex save, rather than simply using your dexterity for a reflex save. Imagine strapping rocket boots to yourself and moving at 100 mph with only normal human reflexes--that's called suicide. That's the problem with cars at high speed--at high speeds reaction time is reduced leading to crashes, etc. Lower speeds equal fewer crashes because you have time to react and avoid them.

 

Dexterity is your general flexibility, your hand-eye coordination, etc. Reflex only applies in specific situations where you have to instantaneously react to things--specifically area of effect attacks. Increasing your dexterity does increase this ability, but other things can increase it directly without increasing dexterity because it is, in fact, a separate deal. Boots of Reflex increase this ability to react to things--it doesn't increase your dexterity, it doesn't make your more flexible, it doesn't interact with your hand-eye coordination. It's a magical item which directly increases your reflex speed.

 

A plate of metal between the blow and the person doesn't increase your health or endurance, does it? No, it prevents the damage from reaching you. That's why armor in PoE provides DR--some of the force is taken by the armor, sparing you that damage.

 

None of this is to say that they couldn't *make* rocket boots that increase your reflex. It's a game, they can do what they want. What I'm saying is that saying the "Boots of Reflex +2" is just good treading doesn't fly, not when you hold it up to the internal logic of the game world (where it's very clearly supposed to be a minor magical item, not just a good shoe) and not when you examine what reflex actually means or how reflex is used in the game.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a big fan of doing away with random loot altogether. RNG is a terrible system, and a dev any game should try hard not lean on it. But kudos to taking 'I dont' like RNG' and going all the way to 'I want every item at the start.' Maybe those boots of evasion give a minor boost to leaps of logic as well.

 

Could it be because it sounds like the reason you don't like random drops and less than stellar equipment is because you only want all the best equipment all the time and from there it's not much of a leap at all to just provide it at the start?

 

Or maybe it's not about "having the best equipment all the time" and more about "never having equipment that is entirely useless"?

 

 

That would depend on whether we use the internet definition of "useless"  = anything not awesome or the actual definition which clearly would show a use for:

 

1)even a small amount of increase in reflex as it is entirely within reason to speculate that it is possible that could make the difference between passing or failing a reflex check

 

2) if your reflex is already over the top it can be sold for 100c with which you can purchase any number of useful things

 

Thus in reality they are  not in fact useless at all.

 

In fact one might further speculate that even if the boots had no bonus to reflex at all that they could be used simply to cover the adventurers feet until such time that he found something better to wear - there are in fact many adventurers young and old that take great pride in outfitting their characters properly with nice looking equipment whether or not it adds anything other than that or not.

 

Useless? I think not...

 

 

Useless is a subjective term. It can be used to indicate a literal lack of functioning or it can be used to describe an item (or person) that is crap at what they are supposed to be doing. According to Merriam-Webster, "useless" can mean "not able to give service or aid" and also "ineffectual". It's not an "internet" use, it's a common colloquial usage. Nobody in the world uses every single word for it's straight literal definition at every point in existence, and most words (such as useless) have multiple meanings of which one is a common use and the other is a literal or "formal" use. Attempting to point out my use of the word "useless" as somehow destroying the meaning of my post only indicates that you couldn't actually find a problem with my point.

 

That point was to show the false dichotomy that you put forward--ie, that we either accept the random drops of crap items or else we just whine because we want super-uber maxed out amazing end-game equipment all the time.

 

That's a strawman, and you know it. There's no such divide between things. Nobody here is pushing for every single item in the game to be freaking fantastic. People understand the idea of lowbie items, of replacing equipment over time. We all know that upgrading equipment is an essential part of the Western RPG experience. You are not "educating the lowly masses" about how RPG's work.

 

What's being discussed is the idea that random drops often result in equipment that is not "sub-optimal" but essentially useless for the party that you are using. This is a problem with random item generation, not with needing all the best **** immediately. Talking about issues with random loot generation does not turn anybody into a whiny min/maxer. It's asking for intelligent discussion about the pros/cons of something that has been fundamental to RPG's for a long time, and inviting discussion about what other options might be available.

[Rathlord]

What's being discussed is the idea that random drops often result in equipment that is not "sub-optimal" but essentially useless for the party that you are using. This is a problem with random item generation, not with needing all the best **** immediately. Talking about issues with random loot generation does not turn anybody into a whiny min/maxer. It's asking for intelligent discussion about the pros/cons of something that has been fundamental to RPG's for a long time, and inviting discussion about what other options might be available.

 

In interest of actual discussion, wiping away all the jabs at people about various things from everyone, I can accept your idea that sometimes the boots are not useful for one specific party in one specific position. Where I believe your logic is failing is that sometimes this will be true for any item, no matter how good or bad it is. Sometimes, you'll get an awesome warbow, but no one in your party uses ranged weapons (or doesn't have warbow talent, or whatever you want to say). So what, in your mind, differentiates that between these boots? One is a strong item and one is a weak item, but it's perfectly plausible that on any given playthrough a party might use none, one, or both of these items. So why does the "weak" item (in your mind) become something so bad that we must rewrite a core game system for, but a "strong" item not that you might not use not merit the same reaction?

 

You can't say "useless" (sorry, normal usage or not, it doesn't fit). Plenty of parties- especially people who are not completionists or min/maxers- may use these boots for a considerable portion of the game. That makes them, by definition, not useless for many people. I'm extremely thorough and used these boots for longer than I used some of the best weapons in the game with my latest playthrough. I realize we're being a bit pedantic about word usage here, but the pivotal point of everyone's argument seems to be the "useless" bit. I still think, when it really comes down to it, there's no reason people dislike these except that they're highly optimized.

 

As I've already pointed out, they neither break immersion more than any other magic item in the game, nor are any more or less useful than any other magic item in the game. It's not the most optimal use of the slot possible, but that doesn't make them useless.

 

---

 

To lay it out nicely, let's compare two items and use two groups as a template:

 

Group 1 is a solo fighter who uses small shields and sabres to do decent damage and survive.

Group 2 is a full sized group with a diverse class make-up.

 

Item A. This is a small shield with a deflection bonus and retaliate. Awesome!

Item B. This is Reflex +1 boots.

 

Group 1 will use the small shield. It's good at what it does- add some deflection without lowering accuracy, and it gets him some free damage, too.

Group 1 will not use the reflex boots. He's got a ring that gives a better bonus.

 

Group 2 will not use the small shield. They have 2 tanks that use large shields and a berserker that uses 2 handed weapons.

Group 2 will use the reflex boots. They're good at what they do- add some reflex without using a prime stat spot (ring). They don't have enough boots for their party, so this is perfect for the priest.

 

 

The boots are no different from any other item in the game. They will be useful to some parties, and not useful to others.

 

If you want to have a discussion about random loot in rpg's in general, that's fine, but let's not sit here and pretend that these boots are so broken that they're forcing us to have that discussion.

[Katarack21]

 

What's being discussed is the idea that random drops often result in equipment that is not "sub-optimal" but essentially useless for the party that you are using. This is a problem with random item generation, not with needing all the best **** immediately. Talking about issues with random loot generation does not turn anybody into a whiny min/maxer. It's asking for intelligent discussion about the pros/cons of something that has been fundamental to RPG's for a long time, and inviting discussion about what other options might be available.

 

In interest of actual discussion, wiping away all the jabs at people about various things from everyone, I can accept your idea that sometimes the boots are not useful for one specific party in one specific position. Where I believe your logic is failing is that sometimes this will be true for any item, no matter how good or bad it is. Sometimes, you'll get an awesome warbow, but no one in your party uses ranged weapons (or doesn't have warbow talent, or whatever you want to say). So what, in your mind, differentiates that between these boots? One is a strong item and one is a weak item, but it's perfectly plausible that on any given playthrough a party might use none, one, or both of these items. So why does the "weak" item (in your mind) become something so bad that we must rewrite a core game system for, but a "strong" item not that you might not use not merit the same reaction?

 

You can't say "useless" (sorry, normal usage or not, it doesn't fit). Plenty of parties- especially people who are not completionists or min/maxers- may use these boots for a considerable portion of the game. That makes them, by definition, not useless for many people. I'm extremely thorough and used these boots for longer than I used some of the best weapons in the game with my latest playthrough. I realize we're being a bit pedantic about word usage here, but the pivotal point of everyone's argument seems to be the "useless" bit. I still think, when it really comes down to it, there's no reason people dislike these except that they're highly optimized.

 

As I've already pointed out, they neither break immersion more than any other magic item in the game, nor are any more or less useful than any other magic item in the game. It's not the most optimal use of the slot possible, but that doesn't make them useless.

 

---

 

To lay it out nicely, let's compare two items and use two groups as a template:

 

Group 1 is a solo fighter who uses small shields and sabres to do decent damage and survive.

Group 2 is a full sized group with a diverse class make-up.

 

Item A. This is a small shield with a deflection bonus and retaliate. Awesome!

Item B. This is Reflex +1 boots.

 

Group 1 will use the small shield. It's good at what it does- add some deflection without lowering accuracy, and it gets him some free damage, too.

Group 1 will not use the reflex boots. He's got a ring that gives a better bonus.

 

Group 2 will not use the small shield. They have 2 tanks that use large shields and a berserker that uses 2 handed weapons.

Group 2 will use the reflex boots. They're good at what they do- add some reflex without using a prime stat spot (ring). They don't have enough boots for their party, so this is perfect for the priest.

 

 

The boots are no different from any other item in the game. They will be useful to some parties, and not useful to others.

 

If you want to have a discussion about random loot in rpg's in general, that's fine, but let's not sit here and pretend that these boots are so broken that they're forcing us to have that discussion.

 

"In interest of actual discussion, wiping away all the jabs at people about various things from everyone, I can accept your idea that sometimes the boots are not useful for one specific party in one specific position."

 

And that is *EXACTLY* the problem with random loot generation. It can, and often does, result in a great deal of effort being put forth to achieve...nothing. This isn't *such* a problem with PoE because of the way they implemented things--certainly not in comparison to many other RPG systems out there--but it is a problem that exists, and it's the problem being discussed. These boots are not broken--they work just fine, they don't cause any problems, that's not the discussion here-- but they are particularly and unusually "sub-optimal", by which I mean crappy. I'm not saying I need optimized equipment at all times; I'm saying these boots are *less optimal* than just about anything else in the game, particularly when you factor in that bonuses don't stack with each other. You are quite likely to get a ring or a cape soon after acquisition that makes these entirely and literally useless. Not to mention that, because of the way random loot generation happens, it's entirely possible to be wearing these boots and endgame despite not actually getting a bonus at that point but simply because you hate an empty slot and have nothing else to put there.

 

"Plenty of parties- especially people who are not completionists or min/maxers- may use these boots for a considerable portion of the game."

 

Yes. People like *me*, for example. As I said, multiple times, these are lowbie items that are meant to be replaced by better items through game progression. This is a thing that happens. I wore them into late-game myself, not because I wanted to, but because I didn't find any better boots and I had other things I wanted in the cape/ring slots for that character. Eventually I did get better boots--Boots of Stability and Boots of Speed, to be exact--but it took quite a while.

 

If you don't know the location of better boots and go out for them (or have the money to buy them), it's entirely possible to end up using these boots for the length of the game, because random loot is a total bitch. Granted, they're not as bad as Fulvano's Boots but those aren't a random item drop. You're never going to get stuck with Fulvano's Boots *again* when you were hoping to upgrade.

[Katarack21]

RNG now is not really any different in main than rolling dice in AD&D tabletop in the mid-70s.  Lot faster now, being done by the computer.... but the point is still the same.

That computer is the *key* difference. A real, actual, live Dungeonmaster can make human judgements on the fly--fudging that dice roll just so this party member doesn't get completely screwed, changing the bonus on this magic item so that it works with this class and that party member get's a magic item because the rest of the party has gotten them and he just makes crappy dice rolls, etc.

 

In an actual D&D game, the Dungeonmasters random dice rolls are never truly random because theirs a human mind controlling the effects, if not the actual dice roll itself.

[Oralaina]

 

RNG now is not really any different in main than rolling dice in AD&D tabletop in the mid-70s.  Lot faster now, being done by the computer.... but the point is still the same.

That computer is the *key* difference. A real, actual, live Dungeonmaster can make human judgements on the fly--fudging that dice roll just so this party member doesn't get completely screwed, changing the bonus on this magic item so that it works with this class and that party member get's a magic item because the rest of the party has gotten them and he just makes crappy dice rolls, etc.

 

In an actual D&D game, the Dungeonmasters random dice rolls are never truly random because theirs a human mind controlling the effects, if not the actual dice roll itself.

 

 

Um.  I never "fudged" rolls.  A roll was what it was, and the game played out however the rolls went.

 

I don't have any issue with the computer making rolls in games.  Never have.  If you lose, you lose.  Lots of people think that no one should ever have to deal with losing.... BAD BAD idea.  This is why we have people today who think life is just going to give them everything they want (or their parents, whichever....)  Seriously upside down there.

[Katarack21]

 

 

RNG now is not really any different in main than rolling dice in AD&D tabletop in the mid-70s.  Lot faster now, being done by the computer.... but the point is still the same.

That computer is the *key* difference. A real, actual, live Dungeonmaster can make human judgements on the fly--fudging that dice roll just so this party member doesn't get completely screwed, changing the bonus on this magic item so that it works with this class and that party member get's a magic item because the rest of the party has gotten them and he just makes crappy dice rolls, etc.

 

In an actual D&D game, the Dungeonmasters random dice rolls are never truly random because theirs a human mind controlling the effects, if not the actual dice roll itself.

 

 

Um.  I never "fudged" rolls.  A roll was what it was, and the game played out however the rolls went.

 

I don't have any issue with the computer making rolls in games.  Never have.  If you lose, you lose.  Lots of people think that no one should ever have to deal with losing.... BAD BAD idea.  This is why we have people today who think life is just going to give them everything they want (or their parents, whichever....)  Seriously upside down there.

 

I never said you should never have to deal with losing. I said that a dungeonmaster can fudge the rolls to account for the human element. The two are not the same. What is with this boards tendency to take somebodies post and immediately jump off the deep end of the most extreme possible version of it?

 

Picture this. It's the 12th session in this campaign. Everybody else in the party got a magic item--from decent but not exceptional dice rolls--by the fourth session. This one player does not have any magic items, and hasn't for eight sessions longer than the other players, solely because that player has had a really bad streak of rolls. A dungeonmaster *can* make the call to fudge a roll on a loot table and allow that player to get a magic item--or to fudge a particular magic item so that it works for this character and the party will just give it to him. The dugeonmaster may not--depending on that dungeonmasters style, the players in question, more esoteric concepts such as group harmony versus challenge and whether that particular player might become frustrated at his streak of bad luck and create an issue, maybe this other player has some stress in his out-of-game life that makes him a little more likely to take things badly this session, etc. I can honestly say that in real, honest conversations with other dungeonmasters--both sometimes dungeonmasters like myself and dedicated full-time DM-only people--I have very, very rarely encountered a dungeonmaster that can honestly say they have never once, in their entire career as a dungeonmaster, ever fudged a single die roll.

 

My point isn't that dealing with consequence is bad and nobody should ever have to lose ever. My point is that a dungeonmaster can fine-tune the campaign on the fly, as they go along, for this particular group and this particular session. A dungeonmaster can provide a reward for in-game actions based on decisions you came up with on the fly--the RNG computer can only dole out the pre-programed reward designated by the loot list. There's a million other examples of this ability to alter the game based on the situation currently at hand.

A computer can't do that.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Katarack21

[Oralaina]

That's my point.  The computer is entirely without emotion.  Sorry about that one magic-less person, but *shrug*.... that's the breaks.  A computer is better because it will never be tempted to "intervene".

 

I think we'll just agree to disagree here.

[Teioh_White]

It's not really an issue about how tabletop handles it, or immersion in non magic boots, just the impact gamplay. and IE games are largely about your bringing character/team build through a fixed campaign, often one that's very long. That's what gives them that replay value, so you can try out different builds, and get different game play.

 

RNG is terrible in this system, you don't want the player unable to do the build he wants, because 10 hours into the 70 game, that key peice didn't come. RNG in combat is an entirely different thing, not relevent to the issue, and isn't even the same form of RNG. Half the point of the builds in this game is to influence those outcomes, to make them not so RNG. But you don't want people investing horus into a build that can't work because the game is randomly dolling out abilites.

[wanderon]

It's not really an issue about how tabletop handles it, or immersion in non magic boots, just the impact gamplay. and IE games are largely about your bringing character/team build through a fixed campaign, often one that's very long. That's what gives them that replay value, so you can try out different builds, and get different game play.

 

RNG is terrible in this system, you don't want the player unable to do the build he wants, because 10 hours into the 70 game, that key peice didn't come. RNG in combat is an entirely different thing, not relevent to the issue, and isn't even the same form of RNG. Half the point of the builds in this game is to influence those outcomes, to make them not so RNG. But you don't want people investing horus into a build that can't work because the game is randomly dolling out abilites.

 

And how exactly does a finding a (free) pair of Boots of Evasion that you can wear for the small bonus or sell for cash negatively effect gameplay? 

[Teioh_White]

Ooy, I was honestly thinking about specificlaly mentioning the Boots of Evasion, just incase someone would miss the point by going too narrow this time, but really wanted to give more credit than that.

 

I was speaking about RNG in how it negatively relates to building a character in IE games.  The Boots of Evasion drop is just a small example of that in play. The Boots are part of the 'random' chests in Pillars, which are the only RNG aspects of character building in Pillars. Just because a poor decison has a small enough impact to be neglible doesn't make it not a poor design issue.

 

As for the Boots in particular, they can cost the player a Gauntlents of Accuracy, or a Blunting Belt, something you only get one of each in the game. If you wanted you wanted your tanks up front to be focused on stacking DR, or counting on the Acc from the hands slot, you can be out of luck. It's alright to not have that belt or gloves, but that should be something the player knows up front, not part way through a 70 hour+ game.

 

But again, it's not about the boots, they're just a small example of it in play in Pillars. A worse example is the stronghold merchant, who has unique items that can change a build which you can easily never see. Just because the game building isn't significantly undermined by RNG doesn't mean the instances it does have are negatives, not positives.

[wanderon]

Ooy, I was honestly thinking about specificlaly mentioning the Boots of Evasion, just incase someone would miss the point by going too narrow this time, but really wanted to give more credit than that.

 

I was speaking about RNG in how it negatively relates to building a character in IE games.  The Boots of Evasion drop is just a small example of that in play. The Boots are part of the 'random' chests in Pillars, which are the only RNG aspects of character building in Pillars. Just because a poor decison has a small enough impact to be neglible doesn't make it not a poor design issue.

 

As for the Boots in particular, they can cost the player a Gauntlents of Accuracy, or a Blunting Belt, something you only get one of each in the game. If you wanted you wanted your tanks up front to be focused on stacking DR, or counting on the Acc from the hands slot, you can be out of luck. It's alright to not have that belt or gloves, but that should be something the player knows up front, not part way through a 70 hour+ game.

 

But again, it's not about the boots, they're just a small example of it in play in Pillars. A worse example is the stronghold merchant, who has unique items that can change a build which you can easily never see. Just because the game building isn't significantly undermined by RNG doesn't mean the instances it does have are negatives, not positives.

 

Guess that depends on your point of view - I love the idea that I can look forward to different stuff and can't depend on a particular item to be there because to me it means I can't count on a cookie cutter build that always grabs the same gear and plays out the same way (which is pretty boring for me) - this way my character gets to go with the flow and I may end with similar characters (same class and general concept) coming out considerably different from a previous one - this makes for great replayability and that's one of the main reasons I backed this game.

 

Now if I can just manage to find those boots in one of my current adventures I'll be a happy camper! 

[LaSpeakeasi]

I don't necessarily dislike random loot. I'm more upset that items that are absolutely essential for game completion can only acquired by random loot. *Cough* gloves of manipulation *cough*.

 

Seriously. There are late-game chests that you can't open unless you have a pair of those. But you may go through the entire game without finding one. How is that fair?

[Caerdon]

So much BS about RNG/randomness here.

 

How "random loot" - or, more accurately, procedural loot - is used in games depends entirely on design and implementation.

 

With a naive, bare minimum implementation PL can indeed result in loot drops that vary from completely useless to inappropriately overpowered, often in a very frustrating manner.

 

A well designed loot generation system can produce loot drops that take all important factors into account, such as party level, enemy level, enemy type, geographical region, party composition & needs, previous loot history & distribution etc.

 

If the devs so wish, a PL system can "fudge" rolls and ensure that specific major encounters produce loot that's an improvement over what the party already has, and/or that such drops happen regularly enough (hell, it can even ensure that every single item is a slight improvement - I just think that'd be a horrible system).

 

It seems to me that the word "random" tends to confuse people: it makes them think that the devs somehow lose control over how loot is dropped, generated and distributed. That's absolutely not the case.

[wanderon]

I don't necessarily dislike random loot. I'm more upset that items that are absolutely essential for game completion can only acquired by random loot. *Cough* gloves of manipulation *cough*.

 

Seriously. There are late-game chests that you can't open unless you have a pair of those. But you may go through the entire game without finding one. How is that fair?

 

Really? No character could open them without the gloves or only a max mechanic build could open them?

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

I don't necessarily dislike random loot. I'm more upset that items that are absolutely essential for game completion can only acquired by random loot. *Cough* gloves of manipulation *cough*.

 

Seriously. There are late-game chests that you can't open unless you have a pair of those. But you may go through the entire game without finding one. How is that fair?

 

Really? No character could open them without the gloves or only a max mechanic build could open them?

 

The highest skill check I've run into in the game so far is 15. I am not sure anybody could reach that high w/o resting bonus.

[MunoValente]

 

Really? No character could open them without the gloves or only a max mechanic build could open them?

 

 

Some of the checks in the expansion are really high, although I think if you used the brighthollow resting bonus that adds to mechanics, you could still open most of them, if you're willing to use a few lockpicks.  Of course getting the +2 mechanics resting bonus means you're not getting another better resting bonus for your entire party.   Finding some of those scrolls that raise mechanics can help with tough locks as well, not as useful for finding secrets though, if you don't already know where they are, and those scrolls are rare.

 

If gloves of manipulation were in a shop, I'd seriously spend like 20,000 gold on them.   I think selling a few of the more unique random accessories in shops, even at very high prices would a nice way find a better balance of random and not random.

[spardeous]

"Rocket boots wouldn't improve your reflex, they'd improve your movement speed."

By framing your understanding of reflex through awareness of impending danger and ignoring the fact that humanoids are all working with a basic level of instinct/awareness(unless otherwise noted, such as blindness) you're essentially arguing that being able to move at the speed of light wouldn't improve the reaction time of a normal human, which is completely ridiculous.

Reflex is not solely measuring your ability to instantaneously COMPREHEND danger; in other words, it's not specifically measuring AWARENESS. I can be aware of impending doom and still not be able to get out of the way. It's measuring your ability to instantaneously REACT to PREVENT danger, which is an aggregate of the two. If I'm trying to dodge a 20 foot-wide fireball moving at me from 10 feet away, what do you think would be more helpful? My ability to sense the fireball(which should be pretty obvious) or my ability to gtfo of it's path and trajectory?

The fault in your argument is in assuming that characters are working with an effective 0 awareness. Most sentient creatures and certainly all sentient humanoids in PoE are working with an average level of awareness.

"None of this is to say that they couldn't *make* rocket boots that increase your reflex. It's a game, they can do what they want. What I'm saying is that saying the "Boots of Reflex +2" is just good treading doesn't fly, not when you hold it up to the internal logic of the game world (where it's very clearly supposed to be a minor magical item, not just a good shoe) and not when you examine what reflex actually means or how reflex is used in the game."

The standard that the game has set for minor magical items is far superior to what an item like 'Boots of Evasion' represent. If you stop making the faulty assumption that reflex is solely a measure of danger comprehension, then the tread argument makes more sense than the boots being a piss-poor representation of hobo-level enchanting.

Edited September 21, 2015 by spardeous

[gkathellar]

 

I don't necessarily dislike random loot. I'm more upset that items that are absolutely essential for game completion can only acquired by random loot. *Cough* gloves of manipulation *cough*.

 

Seriously. There are late-game chests that you can't open unless you have a pair of those. But you may go through the entire game without finding one. How is that fair?

 

Really? No character could open them without the gloves or only a max mechanic build could open them?

 

 

It might be possible if you spend virtually all of your skill points in mechanics.

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

 

That's still a lot of points, requires a specific class, and requires one of like 2-3 backgrounds. So it's pretty prohibitive, to be fair.