How useful are additional engagements in 2.0? And what is the role of a Fighter in 2.0?

[KDubya]

I am still trying to download the 2.0 patch let alone the DLC, rural Thailand has poor internet speed and dependability so I am stuck theorycrafting.

 

Prior to 2.0 additional engagements were worthless. Enemies mobbed the first things they saw and stayed on them until something died.

 

1.) Do enemies that exceed the number of engagements of the frontline continue past and attack the ranged casters?

 

2.) Or do they still just mob around the frontline?

 

3.) Does the enemy factor in the danger of a disengagement attack and if it is negligible, take the hit and run towards the softer targets in the rear? As in a 3 might hatchet and shield meat sack with no offensive damage will be ignored?

 

The reason for my curiosity is concerning the new Defender 2.0. Before Defender was great for the extra defense, with Wary Defender you got +15 deflection and +10 reflex, will and fortitude, plus two worthless additional engagements and a -20% attack speed malus.

 

If the new enemy AI still just mobs around the front then only deflection matters and a fighter is better off with cautious attack or replace with a Paladin.

 

If enemies that are not engaged slide past, then the frontline needs to have as many engagements in order to contain the enemies. If enemies also calculate the danger from disengagement attacks and will choose to take the hit if it is weak then a proper front line fighter needs both engagements and offensive firepower. It is in this role that a 2.0 Defender might find his purpose.

 

 The closest comparison would be to a fighter that took Confident Aim instead of Defender, and Hold the Line instead of Wary Defender. The Defender would have +2 engagements, +5 Defenses and -5 deflection compared to +20% minimum damage (= +10% average damage), 20% graze to hit (~= +3.5% damage) and +1 engagement. The Confident Aim fighter looks to be much stronger unless the one additional engagement is worth  a lot more than I think it is, (I used Confident Aim as that is the only other ability available at level 3 for a Fighter)

 

The Non-Defender can take Savage Attack for another 20% damage modal or take Cautious Attack modal for an additional +8 deflection with a -20% attack malus. The Defender can't take either due to modal stacking limitations.

 

If a Fighter is better off with General Talents how will they compare to a Paladin who can take the same General Talents in addition to the Paladin only cool stuff like Auras and Faith and Conviction? Or a monk who can output a whole lot more damage as well as AoE, better crowd control and awesome battlefield movement?

 

The more I run the numbers the worse Defender 2.0 looks to be, and the worse Fighters in general appear to be.

[curryinahurry]

I just finished the 8th level of Od Nua and these a few behaviors I noticed (party of Eder- Tank, PC - DPS Fighter/offtank, Pallegina - Support/offtank, Kana - support, Aloth, Durance; playing on Hard):

 

1.  Fampyr would make beeline for either Aloth or Durance, even disengaging from Eder to do so

2.  Fampyr would charm closest caster unless defenses where up.  If that is the case, would do as 1 (above)

3.  Durgal would swarm Eder, but after 6 (4 + 2 for flanking) additional would seek out other targets

4.  Skeletal rogues beeline for back line

5. Skeletal Wizards often targeted Durance

 

So, it seems that AI is definitely seeking out targets in a more intelligent manner, seeking advantages like flanked status, and using abilities with a bit more discretion.

 

I don't build strictly defensive tanks, so I can't say that it's worthwhile, but the way I have Eder set up (90ish defense pre-buffs with about 15 dr) and decent offensive capabilities is pretty handy.  He does pretty solid damage on disengagement attacks and on more than one occasion interrupted a Fampyr trying to disnegage and go after aloth, and that gave me time to have Eder hit it with a knockdown...and that was the beginning of the end for those Fampyr  

Edited August 29, 2015 by curryinahurry

[KDubya]

Fampyr are one of those enemies in 1.06 that would try to get to the backline casters so I'm not sure that they are a good indicator now in 2.0 as it sounds like they are doing their normal smarter than the average bear attack behavior.

 

Did you take Defender and Wary Defender on Eder? How many engagements does Eder have? I am trying to see if there is a relationship between the six dargul's sticking with Eder and his number of engagements. If Eder only had the one base engagement would he still have held the attention of the six darguls?

[curryinahurry]

He has both (and maybe hold the line?).  I believe his limit is 4.

 

In contrast, my PC fighter with no defender, never got more than 4 on him, even when he was up front.

 

Pallegina, I haven't seen get more than 3  baddies on her playing level 7 and 8 after the 2.0 patch.

 

Another thing I noticed was that the Adragan and several of the skeletal wizards would try to petrify/ confuse my pc...not sure if that is because he has highest accuracy in party or it's something else.

[KDubya]

He has both (and maybe hold the line?).  I believe his limit is 4.

 

In contrast, my PC fighter with no defender, never got more than 4 on him, even when he was up front.

 

Pallegina, I haven't seen get more than 3  baddies on her playing level 7 and 8 after the 2.0 patch.

 

Another thing I noticed was that the Adragan and several of the skeletal wizards would try to petrify/ confuse my pc...not sure if that is because he has highest accuracy in party or it's something else.

 

So you think that there is a direct correlation between the number of engagements and the number of enemies that get stuck to the guy best suited to handle their attention.

 

If so then tanking - the ability to maintain the focus of the enemy melee combatants - is greatly influenced by the number of engagement slots that one has. This makes Defender 2.0 a better choice than I had previously thought.

[curryinahurry]

Possibly...I need to play more to see if that is really the case, but I definitely noticed that most battles on level 7 and 8 followed a similar pattern of; first wave swarming Eder, ranged going after casters/ ranged, offtanks getting overflow and 2 or 3 that would go directly for backline  with enemy casters often trying to down durance or disable my PC fighter.   BTW, this would happen in any fight were the enemies have line of sight to the back line...distance doesn't seem to matter that much

 

TBH, it's easily the most fun I've had with the game.  I have been playing slowly because of time constraints and my interest was flagging when I did have free time because the fights were pretty simple.  Now, I'm finding I actually have to switch weapons, use escape techniques for the squishies, move to intercept incoming baddies, use spells that I didn't use much prior to 2.0 (defensive, mostly) etc.

Edited August 29, 2015 by curryinahurry

[Killyox]

Tbh I don't even go for engagement. Playing mostly without it ^^ Don't feel gimped at all. Hell it seems even better with dmg spread over more characters so stuff like Moonwell is even better now when before only 1 dude would get pummeled by 4+ guys

 

Durance, my PC mage and all squishies got backup shield + hatchet combo and diff chars have healing scrolls.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Killyox

[Ymarsakar]

A fighter's strength in PoTD early on 1.6 was generally that you didn't need healing as much if you got enough deflection to stop crits. So that meant more spells went into buffs and debuffs. Or more dmg not cc to save the tank.

 

The paladin got buffed, so you can do something similar with lay of hands now, 2/ encounter.

 

As for engagements, I didn't notice too much of a difference in Level 9-10 Caed Nua from 1.6 to 2.0 AI wise. Except perhaps that the 2.0 AI is weaker with spirits. An enemy used to flip around and attack whoever is behind them or beside them, the flanker. That means it's nice to have more engagements for second line melee characters that wish to disengage without being followed.

 

Mostly engagement freezes or locks up large amounts of enemies, making the swarms in various dungeons in POTD easier to manage. But the same can be accomplished using stealth and positioning. Given a choice, I would take deflection defenses, and dps over more engagement targets, however.

 

There are circumstances where having 2 targets engaged is very useful on an off tank however. The reason is because some of the enemies like to attack certain targets, so you can't tank them if they avoid you. This is extremely noticeable when my paladin or fighter switches to a ranged weapon, and then some dps character hits the enemy that is now disengaged. That enemy then turns around and chases the dps target. Because he's not locked up by an engagement. This was true for some enemies in 1.6, generally in the Caed Nua super dungeon. The smarter AI that is. 2.0 should have stayed pretty much the same. Instead of engagement targets, I generally prefer to use debuff duration field spells like tangled or the blind/chill fog to control enemy movement, including using terrain bottlenecks.

 

The enemies on the critical path of Pillars of Eternity aren't necessarily stupid. But that's how they look since it's easy to counter them with kiting tactics or something similar. When there's only 4 forest lurkers or 3 beetles, it's easy dealing with it using one tank (that doesn't die). But the moment you start hitting enemies in the range of Ikkala, the bounty wildling, who has drakes, champions, a bunch of priests buffing things at the back, and skirmishers that poison and/or paralyze, then things start getting complicated. Off tanks with engagement targets in those circumstances can help a lot. Because in those circumstances there are like 5 enemies running circles around the main group that can disengage and aggro anything that attacks it. And you can't get to the enemy's backline without getting dangerous close to these loose enemies. In fact, the little goblin like tribes were the most dangerous enemies I faced, because they had different tactical assets, healers, and numbers. It would be interesting to do the fight again with level 12 characters and 2.0 AI.

 

The fighter's other option, btw, is to have a two handed large weapon on a different slot, and use that. Plus confident aim, and their overall dps increases significantly. So essentially two fighters could switch off their roles by using modals. A paladin with two handed weapon, is much weaker in terms of deflection because they don't use modals or defensive powers to boost their deflection as much. So a fighter with those invincible hard to kill powers, can still activate them even without a shield. The paladin needs a higher deflection to keep up, tank wise, but the paladin always has their modal auras and their healing powers.

 

Fighters vs monks, monks can off tank and do dps, but they can't sustain as many crits nor avoid them. Even with same heavy plate armor. So a fighter can survive large numbers of ogres or drakes hitting it at once, whereas a monk can get so many wounds before he can get them off or get healed, that he dies. A priest has to use a shield on em or the druidic beetleshell to save em. Whereas a paladin with lay on hands or exhortations or a fighter with his invincibility power saves, can save themselves.

 

I haven't tried using ciphers or monks to main tank, though, that should be interesting in PotD in super dungeons and boss fights. The issue with monk tanking is deflection, even though they have the health pools. If you can somehow get the monks to have 100+ deflection like paladins, they become a lot more valuable as main tanks. However, that usually requires some rarer items. DR bonuses and the cloak or ring.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Ymarsakar

[MunoValente]

If you're going to use defender, the change to CON helps soak up the damage, my fighter that has it has base CON of 16, a belt that adds +3 and often eats the cookies that add +2 before battle.  If I do find that fighter isolated rather than mobbed, I turn defender off.  Even with the deflection penalty defender can still help survivalist some, as the penalties for flanked are pretty severe and it requires 4 attackers to flank someone with defender. I haven't take wary defender, I've focused more on damage for my other talents.

 

One thing that is fun for fighters with the expansion is between armored grace and durgan steel, you can greatly reduce your armor penalty.  I'm using Saint's War Armor and have only a 3% penalty.  I also found an accessory that reduces armor penalty, but it doesn't stack with durgan steel.

Edited August 31, 2015 by MunoValente

[KDubya]

I was finally able to complete the download for the 2.0 patch, still working on getting the DLC.

 

Constant Recovery is now influenced by intellect???????? WOW

 

Dumping intellect on a fighter is now a very bad move, no longer a trade off of one bad duration ability and avoiding any time based abilities to gain seven stat points. Doing so now gimps your endurance regen which is one of the few benefits that you get.

 

Maxing Might before was an easy decision as it boosted your endurance regen, now nothing is a good idea to drop below 10.

 

I need to rethink everything I've ever thought about fighters and how to use the effectively.

[Animaillusionaria]

I was finally able to complete the download for the 2.0 patch, still working on getting the DLC.

 

Constant Recovery is now influenced by intellect???????? WOW

 

Dumping intellect on a fighter is now a very bad move, no longer a trade off of one bad duration ability and avoiding any time based abilities to gain seven stat points. Doing so now gimps your endurance regen which is one of the few benefits that you get.

 

Maxing Might before was an easy decision as it boosted your endurance regen, now nothing is a good idea to drop below 10.

 

I need to rethink everything I've ever thought about fighters and how to use the effectively.

even at 3 int constant recovery still lasts 58 seconds and most battles dont last that long in anything that isnt Potd and there you will be tossing out more  Aoe heals anyway since engagement doesnt 100% lockdown anymore so yeah its a nerf but its still perfectly fine to dump int ( if you really wanted a frontliner which poops green healing numbers you would go paladin anyway buffed lay on hands are ridicioulous)

Edited September 1, 2015 by Animaillusionaria

[KDubya]

 

I was finally able to complete the download for the 2.0 patch, still working on getting the DLC.

 

Constant Recovery is now influenced by intellect???????? WOW

 

Dumping intellect on a fighter is now a very bad move, no longer a trade off of one bad duration ability and avoiding any time based abilities to gain seven stat points. Doing so now gimps your endurance regen which is one of the few benefits that you get.

 

Maxing Might before was an easy decision as it boosted your endurance regen, now nothing is a good idea to drop below 10.

 

I need to rethink everything I've ever thought about fighters and how to use the effectively.

even at 3 int constant recovery still lasts 58 seconds and most battles dont last that long in anything that isnt Potd and there you will be tossing out more  Aoe heals anyway since engagement doesnt 100% lockdown anymore so yeah its a nerf but its still perfectly fine to dump int ( if you really wanted a frontliner which poops green healing numbers you would go paladin anyway buffed lay on hands are ridicioulous)

 

 

I've been playing around with the retrainer and merc hiring at level 12/11 to see different builds.

 

I guess I never realized how bad constant recovery was, I always assumed it was per second so a 20 might got you 4 endurance per second regen. Sounded pretty strong Now that I can see that that is over a 3 second period it gets a lot weaker, factor in a duration based on intellect and it gets even worse.  

 

Compare it to Lay on Hands and I want to cry. Let's see regen (at base levels) 3 endurance over 3 seconds for 90 seconds (90 endurance in total) OR heal anyone 109 endurance over 5 seconds (109 endurance in total) oh  yeah I can do that twice.   The barbarian self heal is a lot better as well.

 

Can't quite understand why Fighter had to get beat down so much by the dev's. Trading -5 deflection for -20% attack speed is fine but why change wary defender from +10 to everything to only +5 for reflex, will and fortitude?

 

The level 13 abilities also look pretty bad for a fighter. While everyone else got some real cool stuff, Fighter gets to take all the damage for the team and die while barbarians get super giant leaps of bad assery, paladins get to call in an airstrike, monks get twin duplicates of death and casters get level 3 spells per encounter. Not sure how this all passed a review.

 

The plus side is that now I think Eder's stats are fine the way they are, it used to bug me that he had wasted points in intellect and constitution but now they look to be good choices or at least as good as the next.

Edited September 1, 2015 by KDubya

[Elric Galad]

My thoughts exactly.

 

Fighters do not have too bad abilities (even if their lvl 13 one is meh), but they don't have gamechanging default abilities of other martial class : carnage, sneak attack, faith and conviction or (now buffed) pets.

 

Monk too has a meh default ability (suffering) but monks have 3 "OP" abilities to compensate :

- swift strikes for constant DPS buff on par with sneak attack (with talent)

- torment reach as Bread&Butter wound spender for even more DPS fun

- force of anguish for "time of needs" infinite hard CC.

 

It's not that other monk abilities are bad, it is just these 3 are the reason why you want to include a monk in your party.

 

It was the same for (wary) defender : it was fighter gamechanging ability. If you nerf it, fighter needs something else.

 

 

However, wary defender was indeed a problem because you HAD to take it to have a fighter on par with other classes as there were not other really powerful abilities. Nerfing it opens more playstyles. For example, I can now imagine a DPS fighter activating unbending (basically 50% less damages) during boss fight because he is not invincible anymore.

 

But Dev should add something to compensate.

[Animaillusionaria]

My thoughts exactly.

 

Fighters do not have too bad abilities (even if their lvl 13 one is meh), but they don't have gamechanging default abilities of other martial class : carnage, sneak attack, faith and conviction or (now buffed) pets.

 

Monk too has a meh default ability (suffering) but monks have 3 "OP" abilities to compensate :

- swift strikes for constant DPS buff on par with sneak attack (with talent)

- torment reach as Bread&Butter wound spender for even more DPS fun

- force of anguish for "time of needs" infinite hard CC.

 

It's not that other monk abilities are bad, it is just these 3 are the reason why you want to include a monk in your party.

 

It was the same for (wary) defender : it was fighter gamechanging ability. If you nerf it, fighter needs something else.

 

 

However, wary defender was indeed a problem because you HAD to take it to have a fighter on par with other classes as there were not other really powerful abilities. Nerfing it opens more playstyles. For example, I can now imagine a DPS fighter activating unbending (basically 50% less damages) during boss fight because he is not invincible anymore.

 

But Dev should add something to compensate.

it just seems that way because fighter is mostly all about passives  (armored grace,weapon specilization,weapon mastery, Unbroken etc) he has no exciting abilities  but hes by no means inferior, while tank fighter might be meh now dps fighter is hillarious 

 

im currently playing  a dual wield fire godlike fighter in Potd  (dump int max str/dex/per everything else 10) and he can still easily offtank stuff sure he doesnt do as much dmg as a rogue  but he also doesnt die in 2 hits like the rogue and i found double hatchet offset + godlike dr below 50% pretty effective at keeping him alive.

 

Fighter just SEEMS weak and lame because they are so boring 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Animaillusionaria

[Elric Galad]

I don' agree. It's not just a problem of passive abilities or not.

 

Armored grace, weapon mastery & specialisation and confident aim is no more DPS than a monk with swift strike & lightning lash.

 

3 abilities & 1 talent vs 1 ability & 1 talent (and 1 wound and instant activation, not stricly passive but not very active).

 

Fighter's current problem is not comparison to rogue because they have different roles.

 

Fighter's current problem is comparison to Monk IMHO.

 

I don't think fighter's abilities are currently on par with monks'. By no means I think they are not viable in PotD by the way.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Elric Galad

[MunoValente]

Fighters and Paladins I think are pretty close in quality right now, but Monks do seem to be better.  I think monks could stand to be a little softer defensively at least if they are in armor.  Maybe reduce their base deflection, but then give them a built in ability that raises their deflection in lighter armor.  

 

One thing Fighters and Paladins do have over Monks though is that their attacking abilities work with guns.

[KDubya]

Fighters and Paladins I think are pretty close in quality right now, but Monks do seem to be better.  I think monks could stand to be a little softer defensively at least if they are in armor.  Maybe reduce their base deflection, but then give them a built in ability that raises their deflection in lighter armor.  

 

One thing Fighters and Paladins do have over Monks though is that their attacking abilities work with guns.

 

I definitely don't think monks should be nerfed, melee is already 2nd class compared to casters, no reason to beat on one of the good ones.

 

Paladins have a lot of advantages over fighters. Faith and Conviction get them better deflection and defenses, lay on hands gets them better healing, the auras get them group buffs and the various exhortations gets them a lot of utility for the team. Fighter will have higher accuracy and have more single target damage but have no way to make the team better.

 

If engagements are beneficial and required, then a fighter with wary defender will have +2 engagements with -5 deflection and +5 defences. A paladin, or anyone else, can take hold the line and cautious attack or weapon and shield style and get +1 engagement and either +8 deflection and -20% attack speed or use a shield and get +6 deflection and add the shield to reflex. This extra engagement is what fighters can get that others can't , or at least without using specific weapons.

 

A gun is good for one shot, after that you need to grab a melee weapon and engage or else the enemies might run past you. A fighter can shoot first thing and get to add +25% damage if he has both spec and mastery and the group includes a gun. A paladin can have a gun on switch for a brutal flame attack. Both are really useful but it is still just one attack.

 

Try a monk that uses fist and shield and wears plate, take weapon and shield style and get great deflection and reflex defense while still having a fast speed fist that can get swift strikes and lightning strikes for +20% speed and a +25% lash. Durable, tanky and can dish out the pain with AoE attacks, rooting pain, and some great CC skills.

[Njall]

Fighters and Paladins I think are pretty close in quality right now, but Monks do seem to be better.  I think monks could stand to be a little softer defensively at least if they are in armor.  Maybe reduce their base deflection, but then give them a built in ability that raises their deflection in lighter armor.  

 

One thing Fighters and Paladins do have over Monks though is that their attacking abilities work with guns.

Well, paladins get up to +25 fort, ref and will over fighters, +11 deflection, +3 party wide damage reduction OR +6 accuracy, again, party wide; better self healing (talented lay on hands heals for up to 200 endurance/use, so 400/combat), party healing, decent AoE at high levels, better burst damage, better accuracy during boss battles.

Fighters get to knockdown stuff twice per fight tho and can have two more opponents beating on them tho, so I guess they're close

[View619]

Defender is worth it for the extra engagement slot, Wary Defender feels like a wasted pick now. 

[Njall]

Defender is worth it for the extra engagement slot, Wary Defender feels like a wasted pick now.

 

 

Using defender puts the fighter at -24 deflection and -21 fort, ref and will (with wary defender) compared to the paladin. That's a pretty steep price to pay for an extra bit of battlefield control.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Njall

[View619]

 

Defender is worth it for the extra engagement slot, Wary Defender feels like a wasted pick now.

 

Using defender puts the fighter at -24 deflection and -21 fort, ref and will (with wary defender) compared to the paladin. That's a pretty steep price to pay for an extra bit of battlefield control.

 

 

And this is assuming the Fighter has additional abilities like Vigorous Defense, Disciplined Assault, Clear Out, et al, instead of sticking to the argument that "Fighters aren't getting anything other than Wary Defender and Knockdown", right? You know that, using your calculations, popping Vigorous Defense alone will put Fighters only 4 points behind in deflection and 1 point behind in the other defenses while giving them access to more engagement slots, better CC skills and talents to push their damage, action speed and accuracy above Paladins, right? 

 

If we're going to compare Paladins vs Fighters, take all of their abilities into account instead of cherry-picking specifics. And for the record, -5 deflection, which is the actual value, is not a "steep price to pay" for free, increased accuracy strikes against enemy units that are now smart enough to attempt disengagement. If you want that and the ability to boost your defenses, pick the class talents that allow it.

Edited September 1, 2015 by View619

[Njall]

That's more like 13 points, since defender locks you out of cautious attack.

Clear out is per rest, and is really nothing to cry home about and is entirely skippable unless you're soloing, since even the frickin priests get an AoE knockdown 4/encounter at high levels, and your casters generally have way better AoE cc then the fighter anyway; vigorous defense only lasts 15 seconds, and the fighter still doesn't catch up to the paladin's passive defense values even with vigorous defense up.

Also, it doesn't stack with circle of protection, which in a high level party will be up quite a bit; unbroken's healing is strictly inferior to lay on hands, confident aim is strictly inferior to zealous focus, which is also party wide; unbending is pretty good, but it's also per rest; disciplined assault is what, 160 damage per combat at level 13?

Fighters used to be better at dealing consistent damage, but then Immolation happenned. Which incidentally also heals your party.

Look, I used to love fighters, I played three to level cap. Between the nerfs and the mediocre high level abilities, they just can't keep up in terms of both utility and raw numbers, now.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Njall

[KDubya]

I'm with Njall, Fighters were my favorite, most played class. Most of my posts on the forums were about fighters telling how you could design for a decent damage output in a durable form.

 

Before 2.0 you could get a two hander or dual wielding fighter with all the damage boosters, defender and wary defender. You'd be around 100-110 deflection with items, have a good single target damage output and could stand in the front and fight with minimal oversight. If things went bad and all your casters got dropped a lone fighter could still weather the storm, self rez if needed and carry the day.

 

Now enemy accuracy is increased slightly due to perception, your own deflection has been reduced by 5+ (perception), 20 from defender (went from +15 to -5) and items look to be one lower (ring of deflection was 10 is now 9). All together Fighters lose 26+ deflection, others lose only 6+, and others can take cautious attack to gain another 8 to get 28 more deflection then a fighter trying to serve a similar purpose of multiple engagement slots and melee durability.

 

Your prototypical offensive defender build now has increased accuracy from perception, +20% attack speed (new defender malus) but has 26+ less deflection. He now is at the forefront with 74 - 84 deflection with items.

 

You say 'well he can just take the vigorous defense talent and get 20 deflection' First he could have done that in the past and gotten to 120-130 levels for nigh invulnerability, now it would just get him close to what he had before except now it requires another ability and requires to have a decent intellect in order to have even a passable duration. At 100 deflection you were still getting hit, it's just that you were able to take those hits while hitting back. Now without vigorous defense you'll be taking a real beating that can be reduced for a short period of time but you'll still be getting hit.

 

If you drop trying to have an offensive output you can instead make a meatsack punching bag. High con, resolve and intellect for extra endurance, deflection and duration abilities. Equip a shield, take cautious attack, hold the line, vigorous defense and similar abilities maybe even take guardian . You'll have no offense and will serve no purpose other than being a distraction to enemies who'll gladly eat a weak disengagement attack and rush past you. This might be the new role for a Fighter (maybe we can change the name to Victim) except a Paladin could do that role much better and make the entire team better with auras, heals, buffs and other good things.

[Elric Galad]

I think something to take into account about balance is how everything stacks, especially with the omnipotent priest buffs.

 

Priest gets a trillion spells per tier meanwhile martials get a single ability, so you have to make it counts.

 

Unfortunately, vigorous defense does not stack with circle of protection, disciplined barrage does not stack with blessing or zealous focus, guardian stance does not stack with cautious attack, wizard buff, shield of the faithful...

 

They might be a bit better, but it makes them less efficient.

 

Wary defender was a passive and did stack with everything...

[the_dog_days]

I agree that Defender was OP before & understand why obsidian tweaked it, but a deflection penalty is going too far. Nerfing the deflection bonus makes sense, but replacing it a penalty leaves me scratching my head.