Defender 2.0 beta nerf

[View619]

The most likely "solution" to all of this is going to be the nerfing of deflection for Paladins and other classes, imo. If the plan is to reduce deflection across the board, I doubt Defender + Wary Defender will return to their post 2.0 form before other classes are nerfed outright.

 

Then all classes can get used to having lower deflection maximums and fall in line with Fighters.

Edited September 3, 2015 by View619

[Njall]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Then they should also bring every other dps down to the fighter's level, of course in order to compensate for the decreased damage output, they should also increase their endurance and remove spells. That'd work.

Or they could roll back the changes, because, really, if paladins don't break the game now, fighters wouldn't either, and deflection HAS been lowered across the board with the changes to perception, which means it' s up to 20 points lower at the high end (which was the problem to begin with, it was not the offtank with 100 deflection that messed up things, it was the 150+ deflection tank that pushed hits out of the combat table ).

Also, frankly, it seems to me that they largely overestimated how much defender contributed to the fighter's unhittability, since they seemed to forget about cautious attack entirely while underestimating how much shields contributed (up to 34 points for a single piece of equipment and a penalty to accuracy, something that, per josh sawyer's words, he considers a non-issue to a tank, and he was discussing defender, which only added like 15 points).

Edited September 3, 2015 by Njall

[Torm51]

I think you all make some damn good points for sure and fighter does need to be improved but...maybe I am playing it wrong and this is more about tanking but Eder built offensively is kicking some major ass in my PoTD Trial of Iron playthrough.  He hits consistently, very hard and enemies are to scared to disengage from him cause he turns them into swiss cheese when the do.  Leading my party in damage (maybe I am bad at building rogues)

[View619]

Well, good luck convincing Josh and company to roll back the Defender changes. I don't see it happening before nerfs are applied to other classes.

[Njall]

Well, good luck convincing Josh and company to roll back the Defender changes. I don't see it happening before nerfs are applied to other classes.

It's not hard: nerf exceptional shields by 10 or so points , maybe reduce the penalty to accuracy in order to compensate or spread the bonus so that instead of getting +4 deflection/upgrade, you get +1 to def, ref and fort and +1 accuracy/upgrade and you' ve nerfed everyone's maximum, then you can roll back the changes to defender, put fighters back in line with the other defensive oriented classes and pure tanks still end up a fair bit lower than they were. Pure tank fighters would even end up a couple of points lower than they are now, since defender only increased deflection by 7 points over the current cautious attack. You solve the problem precisely, keep shields good as you only nerf the enchant bonus, keep the classes on the same playing field and don't need to readjust half the classes in the friggin' game.

PoE's underlying math is quite transparent and balanced (kudos to the devs on that front).

Edited September 3, 2015 by Njall

[Njall]

I think you all make some damn good points for sure and fighter does need to be improved but...maybe I am playing it wrong and this is more about tanking but Eder built offensively is kicking some major ass in my PoTD Trial of Iron playthrough. He hits consistently, very hard and enemies are to scared to disengage from him cause he turns them into swiss cheese when the do. Leading my party in damage (maybe I am bad at building rogues)

Yeah, but that's because fighters are not bad at dealing consistent damage, same as they were before 2.0 hit. They're not even close to a micromanaged rogue, but that's one of their strenghts, put them on the front line they'll babysit themselves (to an extent). But, again, to an extent, you can probably achieve similar (or better) results with a (high level) monk (keep in mind that most of my observations at least only refer to a high level environment. The same lack of scaling that makes, or will make, fighters fall behind at high levels makes them pretty damn good at low level).

Also, frankly, in this game equipment and good tactics generally outperform raw numbers and class abilities, at least as far as standing power goes (which doesn't mean that numbers shouldn't be tuned and balanced ). Slap a suit of exceptional full plate armor on your rogue and, while not as survivable as a fighter, he'll still be able to hold the line for awhile while still dealing pretty decent dps.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Njall

[Gary1986]

The most likely "solution" to all of this is going to be the nerfing of deflection for Paladins and other classes, imo. If the plan is to reduce deflection across the board, I doubt Defender + Wary Defender will return to their post 2.0 form before other classes are nerfed outright.

 

Then all classes can get used to having lower deflection maximums and fall in line with Fighters.

 

 

Nobody is asking for pre 2.0 Defender and Wary Defender. All Josh needs to do is turn the -5 on the current defender to +5 deflection or even 0 deflection. That way Josh gets what he wants by reducing deflection and everybody else is happy.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Gary1986

[KDubya]

They can leave Defender at +2 engagement and -5 deflection and change Wary Defender to +10 deflection, reflex, will and fortitude. This would make the total +5 deflection and +10 defenses, the same as a Paladin's base Faith and Conviction.

 

Another thought is to give defender a bonus to disengagement attacks, +5 Accuracy and +20% damage or something like that. It'd keep Fighters from ramping up their deflection but give them a purpose as a dis-engager counter attacker.

 

And make Defender not exclusive from other modals, at least let it be active with Savage Attack if Cautious Attack is too much.

[Certus]

Crazy idea but how about nerfing/balancing a lot of the fighter talents and giving them an extra talent every two levels to compensate. Could get some nice synergy going and create a well rounded character. Fighter has its own special class then.

[Njall]

Crazy idea but how about nerfing/balancing a lot of the fighter talents and giving them an extra talent every two levels to compensate. Could get some nice synergy going and create a well rounded character. Fighter has its own special class then.

 

I don't really think the D&D 3e route would help, sorry.

I get the draw of getting more talents, but one of the biggest problems of the fighter's abilities is the lack of scaling. Riddling them with a bunch of stuff that's, at high levels, weaker than the stuff they're already getting, that also doesn't scale and isn't even unique wouldn't do them any good.

They need unique, synergistic and powerful abilities, not a bunch of tiny, nonstacking bonuses.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Njall

[Gary1986]

I just don't get the sudden big nerf. If this was a multiplayer game and people were moaning that there ranger was always missing against fighters, maybe id see Josh's point. But this is a single player game, I just don't see the need for this big of a nerf, it just spoils the game.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Gary1986

[Njall]

I just don't get the sudden big nerf. If this was a multiplayer game and people were moaning that there ranger was always missing against fighters, maybe id see Josh's point. But this is a single player game, I just don't see the need for this big of a nerf, it just spoils the game.

Meh, they just got the root of the problem wrong and overreacted, it's neither strange nor unexpected given that they were working on the expansion. I'd just appreciated if they'd held back the nerf and left the ability/talent as they were, and checked how viable they were with the higher level cap and the changes to perception, instead of doubling down on the deflection nerf. 

Frankly, if you look at the reasons given by Josh in this very thread, none of them seems particularly compelling or holds up to a closer scrutiny:

first, the fighter's defense isn't really unapproachable after the changes to perception, for neither opponents nor other classes, and they are and were actually behind other classes, in some cases significantly so;

second, I don't really see the reason defender should have a "meaningful" drawback while no other modal in the game does ( Savage Attack lowers accuracy and increases damage; since accuracy is just a means to increase your DPS, if Savage Attack increases your DPS, in the end, the penalty is insignificant. Cautious Attack carries the same penalty as the old defender; the rogue class modal comes with a deflection penalty, which is not very impactful for a dps, and can be reduced to a mere 3 points with a talent; also, it stacks with every other dps modal in the game; the ranger's modals are, again, intended to increase his dps, and they're a net gain, so no significant drawback here either, the paladin's auras come without penalties, as does the monk's modal... and suddenly, giving defender a significant drawback is a priority? ).

Edited September 4, 2015 by Njall

[Elric Galad]

 

 

Here is where I'd disagree:

 

Skills being spread out is bad the way the skill system works. Each additional free point at start saves you an exponential amount of skills at the highest level. If you need level 10 in a skill the last level costs 9 skill points. If you have 1 free one you save the 9 points, two free points saves you 9+8=17 skill points. One person needs mechanics at least level 10, everyone needs athletics 3 or 4, 3 or 4 in stealth is useful, beyond that lore is the best to get high for scrolls unless you eat a lot of food in which case a high survival could be good.

 

Constant recovery - have it scale to be roughly twice as strong as current and it would still not be as useful as lay on hands or savage defiance.

 

You give Defender high marks, 7/10 but say it needs to be backed by real tanking abilities. Defender can't be active when cautious attack is active. The only other tanking ability is weapon and shield style but that precludes using the more damaging two handed or dual wielding set ups. All it gets you is +2 engagements for -5 deflection. Taking hold the line would get you +1 engagement for no malus and let you take cautious attack or savage attack modals if you wanted. I'd give it 5/10 at best

 

Confident Aim gets you +20% minimum damage = +10% average damage and the 20% graze to hit which for deflection=accuracy would convert 7 out of 35 grazes to hit which do +50% damage or 3.5% extra damage on average which increases the harder it is to hit. At accuracy= deflection +50 (0-65 miss) your damage increase would be effectively 35% more damage (35 grazes at -50% damage become 28 grazes at -50% and 7 hits at +0%) Actually 7/10 sounds pretty good.

 

Guardian is pure trash. has anyone ever taken it? Only good for a meatsack punching bag and chanters and paladins can be so much more effective at this then a fighter, not that building for a punching bag is a good idea anymore anyway.  A Paladin gets useful Auras that benefit himself as well as not having a huge malus. 1/10

 

Unbending is only 3 per rest, lasts 15 seconds at base and stops 50% of the damage. Make that once per encounter and it would be something. I've never used this so maybe I am missing the awesome sauce here. EDIT - Let's say you have 200 endurance and in the tough fight you take 200 damage over 15 seconds and die. Instead you activate Unbending and heal back 100 endurance and are left with 100 endurance remaining. That is weaker than a comparable level lay on hands which would heal more over a shorter period of time, can be used on anyone and gets two per encounter. The barbarian's Savage Defiance aloso heals more over a shorter period of time and can be used once per encounter.  I'd give it a 2/10

 

Unbroken is a great ability but it is only available at level 11, can be replaced with any second chance item, does not stack with second chance and how often are you getting knocked out in the first place? Make this the default fighter ability instead of the crappy regen.

 

Weapon specialty - make this a talent instead of an ability and increase damage or add accuracy. A rogue's reckless assault gets 20% damage, +8 accuracy and a malus of -8 deflection. A mere +15% that is restricted to a single weapon group pales in comparison.

 

Weapon mastery only gets you +10% damage and only if you take the weapon specialty and only affects the one group. needs to be increased with accuracy or more damage to be competitive. Ciphers get a +20% talent that works with every weapon.

 

Fighter are the "Other Guys" of PoE. Eder will still have a place in the party since he is a great character and is good enough as a supporting actor in a team of six but a fighter as a main character just doesn't have the star appeal to be the lead.

 

 

 

Independantly from the solution developers could choose, I think it's good to try to write a consensus on 2.0 abilities level of Power.

So let's go ! I'm going to edit my previous post after that.

 

For skills, you're totally right. I think the 3 skills Fighter get a +1 are actually good for frontliner, BUT the fact that they are spread is not very good indeed. A perfect 10/10 would have been something like +2 Lore and +1 Survival .

I think current fighters' skills deserve a 7/10, not more. But that's not so important I think ^^

 

 

I agree about defender. It's useful, unique, but not poweful. It's an ability that is not really better that a talent and as Njall said, abilities should be more powerful than talents, especially when they are linked to a class special strength. In its current form, I'd give it 4/10, not more.

A bonus to disengagement attack is a very nice idea. As AI chooses to disengage based your accuracy, I think +10 accuracy to disengagement attacks is what could make the skill interesting. 

 

 

For confident aim, well, we seem to agree about 7/10, but there is a little mathemathical error in your evaluation.

For Normal speed 1 hander, for example : their range is 11-16 (except saber).

With +20% min damage, it is 13,2-16 damage range => 14.6 average

+10% damage on 11-16 is 14,85

So it's an effective +8%, not 10%.

Max damage counts slightly more than minimal damage to calculate average damage. But that's not a big difference, of course ^^ Sorry for the nerdiness.

 

Guardian is not good, anyway, I'd change it to 2/10 to make an average.

 

Unbending : I think I like this skill's concept so I'm probably too optimistic about it.

Nevertheless, it has some potential. With good intelligence, it can last more than 20s.

If you regenerate health from another source (like LoH) Unbending will also mitigate damage to the endurance you're regenerating. Therefore it can actually mitigate more than half of your maximum endurance. IMHO, it really has some potential for ultimate damage tanking. Hey, it can be 50% incoming endurance mitigation for 45s +intelligence mod for a boss fight. That's not so bad for me.

BUT it indeed lacks duration, or per encounter uses, and does not mitigate health loss so I'd give it 3/10 because it is not convenient at all.

 

Unbroken : I basically agree with what you said. If it could stack (and scale ?), I would give it something like 9/10. 7/10 for me sounds good in a party game where second chance item can benefit to other party members.

 

Weapon Specialization : Sure, deflecting assault is better (It's a really good ability, I would rank it 9/10), but you can also compare it to barbarian's One Stand Alone or Blooded which have quite annoying conditions for their +20% damage. +15% damage that also works with ranged weapons is not so bad, and stengthen Fighter speciality for reliable consistant damage dealing. 

It's okayish, so 5/10 would be more accurate than 6/10.

 

Weapon Mastery : A bit the same as Specialization. Bitting Whip is a bit OP, and is a bid out of comparison from other talents. Better to compare it with 2Handed Style (that doesn't work with ranged and is less tactically flexible) or the new Sneak Attack talent which is conditional. Both are +15%, but are conditional.

Weapon Mastery is not great but okayish. 5/10 still seems fine to me.

 

Let's compare Specialization and Mastery to Rogue's "Hit to Crit" ability and talent. These 2 are not so good mathematically speaking. But they add to Rogue's playstyle so they are still OK in a Rogue Build. Specialization and Mastery are not for me Fighter biggest issue IMHO.

A bit of "Graze to Hit" added to Specialization and Mastery would be nice, though. "Graze to Hit" could be a very nice trademark for the supposed reliable fighters.

 

 

For the "Other Guy" final comment : During my last playthrough, I played a bit badly against Thaos and the fight ended with my party wiped and Eder alone to face him.

And Eder won. And Eder was the hero of the day, not just the other Guy. Epic feeling ^^. Good old times...  

[Kilburn]

Well, good luck convincing Josh and company to roll back the Defender changes. I don't see it happening before nerfs are applied to other classes.

 

That's fine, I havnt bought the expansion yet. I will vote with my wallet.

 

Im waiting to see how future patchs balance the game before I commit to anything. I have to wait for the new IE mod anyways, since experience is still horribly broken in the vanilla game.

 

If their idea of balancing an ability is +15 deflection nerfed down to -5 and this trend is applied to other classes, I wont bother buying it. 

 

I dont even play fighter but it just shows me they dont really understand their own game. And doesnt really make me feel confident for future changes.

[Darkpriest]

To be honest I like how it is. There is no point to more engaged targets if you can't hit them and they ignore you.... you still get + to other defenses with additional perk, so yeah. seems good to me.

[View619]

 

Well, good luck convincing Josh and company to roll back the Defender changes. I don't see it happening before nerfs are applied to other classes.

 

That's fine, I havnt bought the expansion yet. I will vote with my wallet.

 

Im waiting to see how future patchs balance the game before I commit to anything. I have to wait for the new IE mod anyways, since experience is still horribly broken in the vanilla game.

 

If their idea of balancing an ability is +15 deflection nerfed down to -5 and this trend is applied to other classes, I wont bother buying it. 

 

I dont even play fighter but it just shows me they dont really understand their own game. And doesnt really make me feel confident for future changes.

 

 

It's a part of the 2.0 patch which comes with the vanilla game. So, if you already bought POE then your Defender has been modified. 

I would expect any balance passes to apply to both vanilla and WM, so there's no avoiding it unless you plan on modding your game or avoiding patches in general (GOG).

Edited September 5, 2015 by View619

[KDubya]

 

 

SNIP

 

 

SNIP

 

 

I agree about defender. It's useful, unique, but not poweful. It's an ability that is not really better that a talent and as Njall said, abilities should be more powerful than talents, especially when they are linked to a class special strength. In its current form, I'd give it 4/10, not more.

A bonus to disengagement attack is a very nice idea. As AI chooses to disengage based your accuracy, I think +10 accuracy to disengagement attacks is what could make the skill interesting. 

 

SNIP

 

 

 

Weapon Specialization : Sure, deflecting assault is better (It's a really good ability, I would rank it 9/10), but you can also compare it to barbarian's One Stand Alone or Blooded which have quite annoying conditions for their +20% damage. +15% damage that also works with ranged weapons is not so bad, and stengthen Fighter speciality for reliable consistant damage dealing. 

It's okayish, so 5/10 would be more accurate than 6/10.

 

Weapon Mastery : A bit the same as Specialization. Bitting Whip is a bit OP, and is a bid out of comparison from other talents. Better to compare it with 2Handed Style (that doesn't work with ranged and is less tactically flexible) or the new Sneak Attack talent which is conditional. Both are +15%, but are conditional.

Weapon Mastery is not great but okayish. 5/10 still seems fine to me.

 

Let's compare Specialization and Mastery to Rogue's "Hit to Crit" ability and talent. These 2 are not so good mathematically speaking. But they add to Rogue's playstyle so they are still OK in a Rogue Build. Specialization and Mastery are not for me Fighter biggest issue IMHO.

A bit of "Graze to Hit" added to Specialization and Mastery would be nice, though. "Graze to Hit" could be a very nice trademark for the supposed reliable fighters.

 

 

For the "Other Guy" final comment : During my last playthrough, I played a bit badly against Thaos and the fight ended with my party wiped and Eder alone to face him.

And Eder won. And Eder was the hero of the day, not just the other Guy. Epic feeling ^^. Good old times...  

 

 

I think giving fighters more graze to hit as their niche would be nice.

 

Barbarians are reckless warriors who get attack speed buffs, get better the more they kill, get better when surrounded and get better when they get hurt. Plus they can have one final "I'm dead but I'm taking you with me" attack. They have a nice consistent theme and are effective in carrying it out.

 

Paladins are battlefield generals helping the team via auras, heals, targeted attacks and exhortations. They have a nice consistent theme and are effective in carrying it out.

 

Monks central theme is mobility and redirecting force. They can zoom around the battlefield while taking the pain they receive and sending it back at their enemies. Their theme is a little jumbled but they are effective in carrying it out.

 

Rogues central theme is to brutally take advantage of any weakness in an enemy and exploit it. They are king of damage output when they can get the advantage. Their theme is consistent and they are effective in carrying it out.

 

What is the central theme of the fighter? And are they effective in carrying it out?

 

They get bonuses to specializing in a single weapon group but the bonuses are not exciting and mastery at 10% is lacking in oomph.

 

They can get duration based buffs but they are fairly short in duration and are weaker and more limited than what other classes get.

 

They can get more engagement slots than anyone else but at a high cost and a limited effectiveness. This is an area that should be improved.

 

I think your idea of making fighters the graze>hit masters would be a good one. Maybe expand on the concept of increasing minimum damage so that fighters become the consistent damage dealers and the consistent hitters via graze>hit.

[Elric Galad]

I agree with your description of other classes.
However, I think the central theme of the fighter is pretty clear :

 

They are Tanks in armor, through their defensive abilities and Armored Grace.

They control battlefield around them, using extra engagement, guardian stance, into the fray and various Knock Down. 

They deal consistent damages, especially to ennemies with high defense (mostly Confident Aim, but their new DR Debuff strike is also part of this theme). This theme could be developped a bit more indeed.

 

The point is that their abilities are numerically not so great. Apart for a couple of them, I didn't rate many of their abilities more than 5/10. Not because their abilities are bad but because they are WEAK. They do have all the tools but they are made of paper.

 

The only thing fighter could be missing after defender nerf is something that mitigate health loss during trash encounters.

Vigorous defense would be a good candidate if it stacked with "now per encounter Circle of Protection" (I believe Health loss mitigation is more important for trash encounters. For boss encounters, you probably want more endurance loss mitigation).

Edited September 5, 2015 by Elric Galad

[KDubya]

I agree on the health loss. Doing two PotD games, both still act I, one is a tanky monk and the other is a Kind Wayfarer on kill Paladin using reach weapons. In both the limiting factor is attrition health loss to the frontline melee.

 

The ranged DPS usually never get targeted and if they do get some heavy hitting melee on them they drop pretty fast so they don't take lots of health damage. That and they also might be able to go five straight fights without ever taking a hit.

 

The melee guys get heals, lay on hands, and/or regen to try and stay in the fight. They'll end up surviving without the KO but their health goes down and they need to rest more often than before. This is also where I really notice the benefits of a decent constitution. It seems like you are always behind the enemy's accuracy curve, your gear and abilities never seem to put you over the top to get to that "Go grab a sandwich, I've got this handled" level.

[Elric Galad]

I agree on the health loss. Doing two PotD games, both still act I, one is a tanky monk and the other is a Kind Wayfarer on kill Paladin using reach weapons. In both the limiting factor is attrition health loss to the frontline melee.

 

The ranged DPS usually never get targeted and if they do get some heavy hitting melee on them they drop pretty fast so they don't take lots of health damage. That and they also might be able to go five straight fights without ever taking a hit.

 

The melee guys get heals, lay on hands, and/or regen to try and stay in the fight. They'll end up surviving without the KO but their health goes down and they need to rest more often than before. This is also where I really notice the benefits of a decent constitution. It seems like you are always behind the enemy's accuracy curve, your gear and abilities never seem to put you over the top to get to that "Go grab a sandwich, I've got this handled" level.

 

You should try Field Triage and Bind Wound in 2.0. They have been greatly improved.

 

Field Triage is self target and restore 40% of your endurance.

 

Bind wounds restore 20% of an ally's endurance.

 

 

They are also improved by both Might and Intelligence of the caster, because they have a duration (Health is restored in about 9s). This is not stated on the tooltip but I tested it yesterday. 

I tried it with Durance and seems to restore around 30% of an ally's health. And Durance stats are not really optimal for this...

 

As casters tends to have great Might, Intelligence, and not so many critical talent, I think Bind Wounds is a really good utility talent for them.

 

For frontliners, Field triage can be nice too, but is less flexible and frontliners are usually more in needs of talents.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Elric Galad

[Gary1986]

So how likely is it we will get a change? Or are we p*ssin in the wind?

[View619]

What change are you looking for, exactly? Clarification would probably help after multiple pages of people complaining about Fighters in general.

Josh already said that they could consider changing the malus on Defender, but it seems unlikely any more bonuses will be added to it.

Edited September 9, 2015 by View619

[curryinahurry]

Based on the discussion in the, "role of the fighter" thread, Defender probably doesn't need to be changed with regards to the defense malus.  If Obsidian gives fighters a class bonus to disengagement attacks and that is augmented by Defender (15 and 30% respectively with a status effect like prone or hobbled with Wary), it would make Defender a perfectly viable ability.  The game will continue to be balanced so that uber tanks that are one dimensional, or any other god mode builds, will likely be nerfed, so the better route is to think about re-balancing abilities so they make sense within class design and game goals.

Edited September 9, 2015 by curryinahurry

[Gs11]

 

 

f Obsidian gives fighters a class bonus to disengagement attacks and that is augmented by Defender (15 and 30% respectively with a status effect like prone or hobbled with Wary), it would make Defender a perfectly viable ability.

What do U mean exactly? dissengagement attacks and prone/hobbled for me exclude each other.

[curryinahurry]

^ in the post 2.0 version of the game AI has improved so that enemies don't swarm the first party member they see.  An additional step taken by Obsidian was to nerf the Defender defense abilties (the logic being that additional engagements with the new AI is a valuable trade-off for the defense malus).  The problem is that in earlier versions of the game, disengagement attacks were also nerfed from a guarranteed critical hit to what they are now...damage that can easily be shrugged off at higher levels. 

 

The changes that were discussed in the other thread were to put some teeth back into the disengagement attack for fighters to make up for no longer being the best pure defensive tank. 

 

The change would look something like this:

 

Class: + 15% disengagement damage bonus

 

Defender: + 2 enemies, -5 defense (currently), an additional + 15% damage bonus (proposed)

 

Wary Defender: + 10 all defenses except deflection (currently), Status Effect, Hobbled, base 3 sec (proposed)

 

or something like that.  The point being that if the intent of the defense malus was to exchange for additonal engagement, then disengagement (at least for fighters) has to be more punitive for the ability to be worthwhile.  I hope that makes sense.