white march news

[Fardragon]

The EU is getting retconned.

[gkathellar]

The EU is getting retconned.

 

Hey man, even if Greece leaves the Eurozone, it's not like we're all just gonna pretend it never happened.

[Fardragon]

Greece? Isn't that a cluster of islands off North Africa?

[wanderon]

Greece? Isn't that a cluster of islands off North Africa?

 

Don't be silly - it's a movie from the late 70's with John Travolta! 

[EdwinP]

As for the Stronghold I can understand the problem and maybe the impossibility of adding new buildings and personally I do not think we need more buildings.  I think we need more people to give a feeling of life to the to the Stronghold.  

 

Agreed, the stronghold is dead and empty, even after being fully rebuilt. Though a dilapidated stronghold should feel empty, one that is fully repaired should feel alive.

 

• Rebuild the western wall and add a roving NPC Guard that patrols its battlements,
• Rebuild the training grounds and add a drill sergeant that watches two guards training, much like those found in Defiance Bay,
• Rebuild the fountains of Brighthollow and add a roving servant to that floor. The servant will tell you if the Cook has a new food item prepared for you or if the librarian wishes to see you.
• Rebuild the Hearth and add a cook that generates food items randomly
• Rebuild the library and add a librarian to the library.
• Rebuild the temple and populate it with local peasant worshippers during the day, every odd day.
• Rebuild the main keep and add two servants that roam the main floor, keeping it clean.
• With every building repaired, add a roving NPC peasant character to the map. These characters appear only during the daylight hours and  flee from combat. As the Stronghold is rebuilt, more people are attracted to the stronghold. One improvement = 1 NPCs, 10 improvements = 10 NPCs wandering the grounds of the Stronghold.

Edited July 6, 2015 by EdwinP

[Sannom]

 

 

I don't think the writers on either KOTOR fully understood the universe they where writing in.

 

Is that why they're the only good entries in the EU?

 

Myself being german I think germany is quite a good entry in the European Union. Your mileage may differ, of course.

Is it considered an entry when it was there from the beginning and co-founded the thing?

[Luckmann]

 

 

I don't think the writers on either KOTOR fully understood the universe they where writing in.

 

Is that why they're the only good entries in the EU?

 

Myself being german I think germany is quite a good entry in the European Union. Your mileage may differ, of course.

 

 

Myself being Swedish, I don't think any country is a good entry in the European Union.

 

Least of all Sweden.

 

Kick us out.

 

Please. D:

 

 

The EU is getting retconned.

 

Hey man, even if Greece leaves the Eurozone, it's not like we're all just gonna pretend it never happened.

 

 

If Britain leaves the Eurozone, I'm going to pretend that the EU never happened.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Luckmann

[Nakia]

Speaking as an outsider I think leaving the EU would be a mistake.  We have entered the age of inter dependency.  Politicians should take a look at what scientists can do when they work together.  They are highly competitive people but they can share and build on the research of what has gone before them and of their colleges.  They can disagree in order to find the truth and then work to prove that truth.  

[Gromnir]

No one-handed implements? No Bash as a Talent tree? I am disappoint.

 

also, josh observed that there were numerous unforeseen implementation issues in poe that prevented a more robust stronghold feature.  he seemed to think that improvements to the stronghold would come about IF a sequel were developed.

 

That still doesn't explain why they haven't solved the infinite money sink problem. Taxes need to be based on passage of time, and facilities upgrades need to be based on the passage of turns. This does not require a whole ton of dev resources.

that word don't mean what you think it means.

 

the stonghold is quirky.  ideally, the player base should be a money sink, but it isn't.  as it currently plays, the stronghold not only generates money, but it offers additional powerful equipment. 

 

should be a sink that players wanna throw their copper gold into, but it ain't.  folks do get rewarded too well, but the sink itself ain't particular attractive to players beyond particular offerings such as the curio shop and the bounties. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TT1]

 

 

 

I don't think the writers on either KOTOR fully understood the universe they where writing in.

 

Is that why they're the only good entries in the EU?

 

Myself being german I think germany is quite a good entry in the European Union. Your mileage may differ, of course.

 

HA! 

 

 

Good Fun!

Edited July 6, 2015 by TT1

[gkathellar]

 

No one-handed implements? No Bash as a Talent tree? I am disappoint.

 

also, josh observed that there were numerous unforeseen implementation issues in poe that prevented a more robust stronghold feature.  he seemed to think that improvements to the stronghold would come about IF a sequel were developed.

 

That still doesn't explain why they haven't solved the infinite money sink problem. Taxes need to be based on passage of time, and facilities upgrades need to be based on the passage of turns. This does not require a whole ton of dev resources.

that word don't mean what you think it means.

 

It ... what? Okay, let me see if I can clarify.

 

Hirelings at the stronghold cost money. This money is spent over the passage of in-game time. Rest an infinite number of times, and you will spend and infinite amount of money.

 

Money and resources generated by the stronghold only result from the completion of quests. There are only so many quests in the game.

 

My view is that all of this needs to be shuffled a bit, to remove the potential for infinite spending.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing stronghold upgrades keyed to quest completion (rather than time) to make it a reward for exploring the game.

 

I like the turn system in the Stronghold, but its relationship with in-game time is whack, yo.

[Gromnir]

 

 

No one-handed implements? No Bash as a Talent tree? I am disappoint.

 

also, josh observed that there were numerous unforeseen implementation issues in poe that prevented a more robust stronghold feature.  he seemed to think that improvements to the stronghold would come about IF a sequel were developed.

 

That still doesn't explain why they haven't solved the infinite money sink problem. Taxes need to be based on passage of time, and facilities upgrades need to be based on the passage of turns. This does not require a whole ton of dev resources.

that word don't mean what you think it means.

 

It ... what? Okay, let me see if I can clarify.

 

Hirelings at the stronghold cost money. This money is spent over the passage of in-game time. Rest an infinite number of times, and you will spend and infinite amount of money.

 

Money and resources generated by the stronghold only result from the completion of quests. There are only so many quests in the game.

 

My view is that all of this needs to be shuffled a bit, to remove the potential for infinite spending.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing stronghold upgrades keyed to quest completion (rather than time) to make it a reward for exploring the game.

 

I like the turn system in the Stronghold, but its relationship with in-game time is whack, yo.

 

that is ridiculous.  put a dollar in a savings account.  set the theoretical time passage on the savings account to Infinite and you will see that you got infinite return on investment.

 

*shrug*

 

infinite becomes a meaningless term given your usage.

 

and yes, the money is generated primarily through quests, but many resources accrue over time... quite valuable resources as it so happens.  regardless, nobody plays the game with infinite rests.  you create a synthetic problem with a nonsensical hypothetical.

 

a considerable amount o' resources is generated by the stronghold.  too much is generated in part 'cause the stronghold should be a sink.  in our estimation, you should lose money by doing stronghold as a way to deal with the inevitable money problem that is created in any crpg that allows for non critical path questing.  unfortunately, the developers didn't do a particular good job o' making the stronghold an attractive sink.

 

you Should lose money, but you should be happy 'bout it.  

 

...

 

rest an infinite number of times?  HA! that were a good one.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[gkathellar]

I'll try to simplify further, since it seems like this is going over your head.

 

Stronghold costs are ((total hireling prices)(n(weeks)).

 

Stronghold gains are ((obtuse hidden taxation formula)(x(turns)).

 

n is arbitrarily high, while x tops out with the number of quests in the game.

 

Both formulas should use n, or both should use x.

Edited July 7, 2015 by gkathellar

[Gromnir]

I'll try to simplify further, since it seems like this is going over your head.

 

Stronghold costs are ((total hireling prices)(n(weeks)).

 

Stronghold gains are ((obtuse hidden taxation formula)(x(turns)).

 

n is arbitrarily high, while x tops out with the number of quests in the game.

 

Both formulas should use n, or both should use x.

*sigh*

 

you clear ain't reading.  you are creating a hypothetical problem that isn't actually a problem seeing as how you should be losing money as the stronghold ideally is a sink.  

 

and various gains is based on weeks rather than turns, not that such genuine matters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

@Gromnir, why should the Stronghold be a sink hole for money?  Early on yes and it is but as the security and prestige rise I think the income should rise and it does.

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir, why should the Stronghold be a sink hole for money?  Early on yes and it is but as the security and prestige rise I think the income should rise and it does.

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70731-the-problem-of-being-rich-as-croesus-present-in-most-rpgs/?p=1576721

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70731-the-problem-of-being-rich-as-croesus-present-in-most-rpgs/?p=1576939

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70731-the-problem-of-being-rich-as-croesus-present-in-most-rpgs/?p=1577057

 

the stronghold is an ideal sink opportunity for the developers.  it should provide attractive options for disposing o' excess gold that do not increase player power.  unfortunately, as it currently works, the stronghold provides far too many tangible benefits, and short o' purposefully abusing rest options (*snort*) the pay-off from the stronghold in terms o' bounties, adventures, special vendors and the weekly crafting resource generation, is making the stronghold less a sink and more o' a reasonable investment. 

 

as we noted in the included links, we understand the desire to make the stronghold pay-off, but that is actual self defeating.  the stronghold makes far more sense as a sink.

 

in any event, the hypothetical issue gk notes is hardly worth consideration.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Luckmann]

A problem which is both readily verifiable and mathematically definable is pretty much the opposite of a hypothetical, Strawnir.

I'll go so far as to say that the issue is unlikely to actually become a serious issue in the game, and it's not something I've actually contemplated or noticed, but it's actually a hell of an oversight.

And personally, I'd prefer it if the game didn't need explicit gold sinks at all, but without other limiters, it's pretty much impossible to not end up in the whole "Buy the game"-situation; and to have a (forced?) gold sink capable of alleviating that would likely just come across as frustrating - much more frustrating than had the player not been allowed to acquire such vast amounts of wealth to begin with.

[Gromnir]

A problem which is both readily verifiable and mathematically definable is pretty much the opposite of a hypothetical, Strawnir.

 

I'll go so far as to say that the issue is unlikely to actually become a serious issue in the game, and it's not something I've actually contemplated or noticed,

 

...

 

don't even see the contradiction, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Fardragon]

Speaking as an outsider I think leaving the EU would be a mistake.  We have entered the age of inter dependency.  Politicians should take a look at what scientists can do when they work together.  They are highly competitive people but they can share and build on the research of what has gone before them and of their colleges.  They can disagree in order to find the truth and then work to prove that truth.  

It's really a topic for the off topic forum, but the politicians have screwed up that dream bigtime, and almost certainly beyond repair. The founding idea behind the EU was to make another European War unthinkable, but instead, it has made it almost inevitable. Even before the Germans decided to punish the Greeks for not being good little capitalists, imperialistic expansion by the EU into former soviet territory (as it specifically agreed not to do when the USSR dissolved) had provoked conflict with Russia.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Fardragon

[Nakia]

Thank you, Fardragon and as you say it really is a topic for the Off Off Topic forum.

[Varana]

If you make the stronghold into only a money sink, though, people will just skip it. You have to offer something in exchange.

If it's just bragging rights, people will not use it as a money sink. They will wait until they accumulated enough money elsewhere (as the stronghold is nowhere near the best source of income in the game) and just build it with the excess money. We see this already in its current state: There are a few select buildings that actually give you a tangible bonus - garden, a few security buildings, Brighthollow for parking NPCs, maybe the Curio shop. Everything else can safely be put off until you have 100k in the bank. That's not a money sink, that's meaningless. You don't get anything for having your 100k at the end of the game instead of just 50k, so you can safely blow them on random stoney things and even get a shiny Steam achievement if you're into that sort of thing.

You need to have an incentive - bonuses that really mean something in the game - so that the player buys this stuff at a time when it's still a sacrifice. You have to find the balance, and a lot of people would actually invest in just fancy stuff (esp. because the game is not that hard to begin with, and you can safely postpone or skip buying the best gear), but you have to give the player a legitimate reason to sink money into it if you want to make it a money sink.

 

---

No, the current situation in Europe does not lead into inevitable war. In fact, if we were in the 19th century now, there would have been serious talks about invading Greece a few years ago. Now, it didn't even cross anyone's mind that that would have been seen as an option in such a situation.

That sentence about Russia is all sorts of wrong, but there's enough of that out there in the Way Off-topic section.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Varana

[Luckmann]

 

A problem which is both readily verifiable and mathematically definable is pretty much the opposite of a hypothetical, Strawnir.

 

I'll go so far as to say that the issue is unlikely to actually become a serious issue in the game, and it's not something I've actually contemplated or noticed,

 

...

 

don't even see the contradiction, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

There is none. Me personally not having contemplated or noticed something does not make that something a hypothetical. There are, contrary to popular belief, things outside my frames of reference and expertise. Just because I personally haven't experienced something does not make it's existance a hypothetical.

 

Gkthellar makes a pretty good point. Your only argument hinges on it being a hypothetical - which it is not - and the fact that you want the Stronghold to be a gold-sink, something entirely subjective; I, for example, would prefer the game to not need such gold-sinks to begin with, and that sinks gives something back. If not necessarily economically equitable, then at least narratively or mechanically interesting enough to warrant said gold-sink-ing.

[Gromnir]

 

 

A problem which is both readily verifiable and mathematically definable is pretty much the opposite of a hypothetical, Strawnir.

 

I'll go so far as to say that the issue is unlikely to actually become a serious issue in the game, and it's not something I've actually contemplated or noticed,

 

...

 

don't even see the contradiction, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

There is none. Me personally not having contemplated or noticed something does not make that something a hypothetical. There are, contrary to popular belief, things outside my frames of reference and expertise. Just because I personally haven't experienced something does not make it's existance a hypothetical.

 

Gkthellar makes a pretty good point. Your only argument hinges on it being a hypothetical - which it is not - and the fact that you want the Stronghold to be a gold-sink, something entirely subjective; I, for example, would prefer the game to not need such gold-sinks to begin with, and that sinks gives something back. If not necessarily economically equitable, then at least narratively or mechanically interesting enough to warrant said gold-sink-ing.

 

lordy.

 

hypothetical don't hinge 'cause you failed to suffer the problem.  it is GK's hypo... yutz.  he poses a potential problem that will occur IF a player rests some indefinite number o' times. that is a spot-on example o' a freaking hypothetical problem.  mathematical certitude that will occur at some obscure point does not change the hypothetical nature o' the problem. duh.  is not that gk had a problem.  you personally didn't face the problem.  Gromnir didn't face the problem, but with enough resting...

 

sooooooo  slow.  let us know when you catch up with the rest o' the class.

 

'course 'quibble over definitions, as luck is once again wrong 'bout, ignores the actual issue.  the stronghold creates considerable revenue via taxes and quests and resources.  infinite resting is clear a ridiculous example and is not worth consideration.  Gromnir faced no prohibitive stronghold copper/gold loss issue with multiple plays.  luckman did not face a noteworthy money sink issue.  so, at what point does the stronghold transform from well to sink?  at what point does the sink become a genuine issue for the typical player who would still gladly sink copper and gold to be able to continue getting stronghold benefits such as resource generation and the special items vendor.  given all the potential resources generated, the transformation from well to prohibitive sink strikes us being remote, but that is based on little more than our personal play o' the game.  

 

*sigh*

 

am suspecting you will continue to struggle with basic definitions, but we will try and help you reach understanding.  our optimism is boundless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

In regard to the accumulating of money and having nothing to spend it on I have this to say.  Someone playig on Normal will face more enemies than someone playing on easy therefore they will get more loot to sell.  Playing on Hard you have more more enemies than on Normal therefore more loot.  So how much money you can accumulate depends at least partially o the difficulty level you use.

 

Someone like me will buy items already enchanted and then want to enchant them further and I also like to make potions and even scrolls.  Having your wizard learn new spells also takes money and I tend to have him or her learn all new spelss.  Who knows those may come in handy.

 

As for the Stronghold I want it to be something I can be proud of not a sink hole for money nor a gold mind but a true Lord's dwelling.  A place that will attract people both good and bad.  A place for settlers to come and want to live in its area of influence, raise their families, crops and livestock.   At least in my imagination.  

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

A problem which is both readily verifiable and mathematically definable is pretty much the opposite of a hypothetical, Strawnir.

 

I'll go so far as to say that the issue is unlikely to actually become a serious issue in the game, and it's not something I've actually contemplated or noticed,

...

 

don't even see the contradiction, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

There is none. Me personally not having contemplated or noticed something does not make that something a hypothetical. There are, contrary to popular belief, things outside my frames of reference and expertise. Just because I personally haven't experienced something does not make it's existance a hypothetical.

 

Gkthellar makes a pretty good point. Your only argument hinges on it being a hypothetical - which it is not - and the fact that you want the Stronghold to be a gold-sink, something entirely subjective; I, for example, would prefer the game to not need such gold-sinks to begin with, and that sinks gives something back. If not necessarily economically equitable, then at least narratively or mechanically interesting enough to warrant said gold-sink-ing.

 

lordy.

 

hypothetical don't hinge 'cause you failed to suffer the problem.  it is GK's hypo... yutz.  he poses a potential problem that will occur IF a player rests some indefinite number o' times. that is a spot-on example o' a freaking hypothetical problem.  mathematical certitude that will occur at some obscure point does not change the hypothetical nature o' the problem. duh.  is not that gk had a problem.  you personally didn't face the problem.  Gromnir didn't face the problem, but with enough resting...

 

sooooooo  slow.  let us know when you catch up with the rest o' the class.

 

'course 'quibble over definitions, as luck is once again wrong 'bout, ignores the actual issue.  the stronghold creates considerable revenue via taxes and quests and resources.  infinite resting is clear a ridiculous example and is not worth consideration.  Gromnir faced no prohibitive stronghold copper/gold loss issue with multiple plays.  luckman did not face a noteworthy money sink issue.  so, at what point does the stronghold transform from well to sink?  at what point does the sink become a genuine issue for the typical player who would still gladly sink copper and gold to be able to continue getting stronghold benefits such as resource generation and the special items vendor.  given all the potential resources generated, the transformation from well to prohibitive sink strikes us being remote, but that is based on little more than our personal play o' the game.  

 

*sigh*

 

am suspecting you will continue to struggle with basic definitions, but we will try and help you reach understanding.  our optimism is boundless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypothetical

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypothesis

 

Since you seem to be struggling, Strawnir, there you go. I'm sure you can find some Wikipedia entry on it or something, if you're still having problems. And since it's going over your head, it's the fact that this is possible to do at all in the game that is the problem, not whether you or I personally end up running into it.

 

That's why it's not just a hypothetical issue, but a concrete, demonstratable one. The fact that you personally do not care about it does not mean it's not a problem. It tends to come down to "I don't care so it doesn't matter" with you, though, so I guess you'll just deflect, attempt to ridicule, or pull out yet another strawman. You're not Strawnir for nothing, after all.

 

*yawn*

 

In regard to the accumulating of money and having nothing to spend it on I have this to say.  Someone playig on Normal will face more enemies than someone playing on easy therefore they will get more loot to sell.  Playing on Hard you have more more enemies than on Normal therefore more loot.  So how much money you can accumulate depends at least partially o the difficulty level you use.

 

[...]

 

Which is a problem entirely because of the lack of any limitations imposed on blatant lootwhoring; infinite stash/inventory, no encumbrance, infinigold merchants, etc. Which also contributes to the murderhobo aspects of the game (along with kill XP).

Edited July 7, 2015 by Luckmann