About the "Diplomatic" Reputation (spoiler included)

[Nobear]

I know there have been other threads about dialogue options that affect various reputations, but most of them are old and/or focus on other reputations, like Clever. IMHO Clever is easy to identify if you just listen to Eder (whose humor I generally like BTW; I find it usually not ROFL, but a nice grin-inducing dry humor often amplified by the other characters' bad reactions to it).

 

Anyway, let me get to the point of this thread: Diplomatic. For greater immersion and getting to apply some basic deductive reasoning (Which choice best fits the model?) I have the options to show the affected reputations turned off in-game. However, it is my impression that the Diplomatic choices are particularly far from how I'd envision that character trait. It seems that the developers consider Diplomatic to basically mean you're a yes-man and a pushover, saying you agree with things even if you don't. Correct me if I'm wrong, because clearly my understanding isn't as good as it could be seeing as, with my Shieldbearer paladin, I gained 3 Honesty early on and still only have 1 Diplomatic in Defiance Bay.

 

(spoiler) Let me give you an example of an in-game situation and how I'd respond in real life to craft what I'd consider a diplomatic response. Let's take Nedyn, when you first talk to her to start Theorems of Pandgram, and she tells you about her research on souls. The options my character sees are to tell her it sounds like necromancy (clearly not diplomatic any way you look at it), to say it sounds dangerous (relatively diplomatic compared to the first, but diplomatic is still not the word that would come to mind), and "I see."

 

To me, an "I see" response could be seen as either a lazy version of diplomatic, or as stoic. What does the game generally consider it?

 

Here's the response I would craft instead, in accordance with my view of an intelligent diplomat who happens to disagree: "I can see the great benefit of research aimed to save or improve future lives. However, do you ever worry that we may end up paying too high a price?" This would aim to accomplish several things, which, in my view, serve a diplomat's chief purpose: to achieve desired results with people by selecting, based on nuances of a situation, from a set of tools which generally fall under the umbrella of "social intelligence." First, I am attempting to make Nedyn feel understood by pointing out something we can agree on, which would ideally help lower her defenses. Then, I am framing my point of contention not as an opposing opinion which would likely make her defensive, but as a question, further softened by using the word "we" instead of "you," so she doesn't feel personally attacked. In rhetorical analysis, this is similar to an invitational or Rogerian argument. In my view, other traits like Honest and Deceptive are just possible tools for a diplomat to use to get the desired results with people. It's possible to be diplomatic while staying honest, if the diplomat's values factor in highly, though this will somewhat limit her options. Deception could be a useful tool, but will likely backfire if the diplomat is caught in a lie.

 

What are your thoughts, and can someone attempt to describe a generalizable model for identifying the kinds of responses the game considers Diplomatic, so that I can raise my Shieldbearer's Diplomatic reputation without giving away every dialogue option case by case?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Raven Darkholme]

How are you even sure, there is a diplomatic choice available talking to the animancer?

I have no party right now, that could check for you, but if you have the option turned off, there is no way of knowing you actually can respond diplomatic, is there?

For the paladins I played, there was always one disposition, that maxed way later than the other.

Btw "I see" is definitely stoic, another choice you don't always have in dialogues and which maxes out way later than for example rational on a Goldpact.

[AshenPlanet]

Diplomatic is telling people what they want to hear, plain and simple.

It's basically the opposite of 'honest'.

 

For a good and funny example of diplomacy, talk to pelegrina's boss with her beside you.

Do the exact opposite of whatever pellegrina wants to do, and that's diplomatic.

She's honest and passionate, the opposite extreme to diplomacy.

 

 

[Nobear]

How are you even sure, there is a diplomatic choice available talking to the animancer?

I have no party right now, that could check for you, but if you have the option turned off, there is no way of knowing you actually can respond diplomatic, is there?

For the paladins I played, there was always one disposition, that maxed way later than the other.

Btw "I see" is definitely stoic, another choice you don't always have in dialogues and which maxes out way later than for example rational on a Goldpact.

 

I'm not sure, I'm guessing. I know I could turn the giveaways on even though I'd prefer not to, and that's what I just might do until I get +3 Diplomatic. Good to know about "I see," it seems common when it's not the one you're trying to get .

 

Diplomatic is telling people what they want to hear, plain and simple.

It's basically the opposite of 'honest'.

 

For a good and funny example of diplomacy, talk to pelegrina's boss with her beside you.

Do the exact opposite of whatever pellegrina wants to do, and that's diplomatic.

She's honest and passionate, the opposite extreme to diplomacy.

 

 

Now that's disappointing. You can see my idea of what Diplomatic should be in the OP, but it especially makes no sense in relation to a Shieldbearer (or to any actual diplomat who's trying to, you know, accomplish something). A Shieldbearer shouldn't be a yes-man, he should play an active role in achieving his goals, such as averting conflict through... actual diplomacy. What I call someone who just tells people what they want to hear is a coward. They are afraid to express their views for fear of offending people. A real diplomat has to make his views known if he wants to achieve anything, but present them in a way likely to be well-received. This should not be the opposite of honest. Deceptive should be the opposite of honest, and diplomacy itself should be morally neutral, so it is up to the individual diplomat whether to be more honest or more deceptive.

 

If Diplomatic is the opposite of Honest in this game, how does it make sense for a Shieldbearer paladin to favor both? In real life it could work, but in this game... argh lol, well good to know how it works in-game, that's what I asked for so thank you.

[EphemeralToast]

Soooo I know this isn't what you want to do, but if you're playing a paladin, I really recommend you turn the affected reputation markers on. There are a LOT of instances where the game labels a response something I never would have guessed, and you're just going to drive yourself crazy trying to figure them out. If you're committed to keeping them off, I recommend you get used to the idea that you're not going to max out your paladin's reputation.

 

Also, keep in mind there are a lot of conversations where what you say has no effect on your reputations at all, even when they are verifiably honest or dishonest answers. Why don't I get points in Deceptive for lying to the Berathian priest guards in Raedric's hold? Only Obsidian knows why some lies "count" and some don't, I guess.

[Raven Darkholme]

Soooo I know this isn't what you want to do, but if you're playing a paladin, I really recommend you turn the affected reputation markers on. There are a LOT of instances where the game labels a response something I never would have guessed, and you're just going to drive yourself crazy trying to figure them out. If you're committed to keeping them off, I recommend you get used to the idea that you're not going to max out your paladin's reputation.

 

Also, keep in mind there are a lot of conversations where what you say has no effect on your reputations at all, even when they are verifiably honest or dishonest answers. Why don't I get points in Deceptive for lying to the Berathian priest guards in Raedric's hold? Only Obsidian knows why some lies "count" and some don't, I guess.

It's even worse than having to wait longer, you might get an opposite disposition point than you have to waste a talent to get rid of the negative effects on your F + C.

[Nobear]

 

Soooo I know this isn't what you want to do, but if you're playing a paladin, I really recommend you turn the affected reputation markers on. There are a LOT of instances where the game labels a response something I never would have guessed, and you're just going to drive yourself crazy trying to figure them out. If you're committed to keeping them off, I recommend you get used to the idea that you're not going to max out your paladin's reputation.

 

Also, keep in mind there are a lot of conversations where what you say has no effect on your reputations at all, even when they are verifiably honest or dishonest answers. Why don't I get points in Deceptive for lying to the Berathian priest guards in Raedric's hold? Only Obsidian knows why some lies "count" and some don't, I guess.

It's even worse than having to wait longer, you might get an opposite disposition point than you have to waste a talent to get rid of the negative effects on your F + C.

 

Well I do regularly check my dispositions to make sure I don't have a negative one. But isn't the highest rank possible a 3? If I've already hit 3 in Honest before the end of Act 1, is there really a serious possibility that I might not get Diplomatic to 3 by, say, the end of Act 2?

[AshenPlanet]

'Real diplomacy'?

 

Real diplomats lie all the time, that's why wikileaks was a big deal.

Diplomacy is getting other people to do what you want, by telling them what they want to hear.

 

Telling them what you really think about them and being 'nice', doesn't get you anywhere, any 'real' diplomat knows that.

Convincing someone that their goals are the same as yours, but this particular course of action is the best way to accomplish those goals - that's diplomacy.

 

The choices linked to gaining diplomacy in this game are pretty accurate.

Turn the alerts on to see what your choices mean, or leave them off and play the way you want to play.

Your choices may have nothing to do with diplomacy, but so what?

You can role-play how you want, and who cares what the game thinks of your character?

 

Highest rank, btw, is 4 in any of the character traits.

Edited June 24, 2015 by AshenPlanet

[tinysalamander]

Well I do regularly check my dispositions to make sure I don't have a negative one. But isn't the highest rank possible a 3? If I've already hit 3 in Honest before the end of Act 1, is there really a serious possibility that I might not get Diplomatic to 3 by, say, the end of Act 2?

 

I've got Benevolent 4.

 

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

It's 4 but for paladins F+C is maxed out at 3.

[srlapo]

If Diplomatic is the opposite of Honest in this game, how does it make sense for a Shieldbearer paladin to favor both? In real life it could work, but in this game... argh lol, well good to know how it works in-game, that's what I asked for so thank you.

 

 

Deceitful is the opposite of Honest in this game. Diplomatic is telling someone what you want to tell them and have them like it. It has nothing to do with the veracity of the message, but how it is delivered.

[Nobear]

Convincing someone that their goals are the same as yours, but this particular course of action is the best way to accomplish those goals - that's diplomacy.

Deceitful is the opposite of Honest in this game. Diplomatic is telling someone what you want to tell them and have them like it. It has nothing to do with the veracity of the message, but how it is delivered.

 

I agree with both these statements about diplomacy. I was just worried that the developers might have viewed it as a weak or pushover quality, like just being nice or unobtrusive to no real effect. Maybe their view is somewhat in line with mine after all.

 

It's 4 but for paladins F+C is maxed out at 3.

 

 

Thank you for the clarification on that.