How to build a melee Cipher?

[Hopekiller]

Hi!

So, I decided to make a Cipher on PotD for my first playthrough, and I've decided I want to do a melee version starting out with Antipathetic Field.

 

I read the Cipher TCS writeup and the Antipathethic Cipher 1.05 guide, but I still have questions.

 

First off I was wondering about stat distribution. I went with

MIG 16

CON 10

DEX 15

PER 3

INT 18

RES 16

 

So, I'm not sure if I can dumpster Per if I wanna go melee. I was thinking I either go dualwield or I go with a shield and retaliation items. Any advice on this? Both on stat distribution and melee style. I heard that once I get retaliation items my focus will basicly be limitless, however DW seems fun as well. How viable is it to do Cipher as an offtank?

 

Also, I'm very unsure of what talents and abilities to take. The TCS writeup was obviously focused on solo tactics and the other guide I found wasn't very detailed.

 

I'm interested in opinions and advice from anyone who has tried melee cipher.

Also, if there's some important loot I should grab, please do mention. Be it on vendors or in the world. 

[Exoduss]

I would Max  MIG,DEX,RES,INT dumping CON and Per those 7 points in con wont help you if you take aggro anyway . 

[Evange]

I tried using Cipher as a melee off tank once and didn't like it. Too much micro.

 

Ciphers are best staying in the back lines firing off guns and using their powers.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Evange

[Raven Darkholme]

My solo Potd cipher dumped PER too. These days I'm not so sure if it was perfect, but I survived the entire game except Adra, so it wasn't too bad.

Be sure to grab double retal to get endless focus for free.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[MadDemiurg]

Melee cipher IS the best cipher since melee dps > ranged dps and dps is directly tied to cipher's casting ability. Cipher's also only 5 deflection and 2 endurance/level below classes like monk. Never heard complaints about monk being a bad offtank. Low level cipher tanking spells are pretty weak though (I'd really like to see psychovampiric shield buffed). Borrowed instinct/body attunement are good but come quite late. Main tradeoff in melee vs ranged is robe vs heavy armor.

 

Stat distribution is about offense vs defense, but in cipher's case offense is also defense in many cases. Your stat distribution looks viable, although I'd go more dex over might actually.

 

As for weapon style, I'd go both DW and W&S in your 2 weapon sets and switch accordingly (when focused by multiple enemies -> shield). The question is what style talent to pick, as you are light on talents. If you're not soloing I'd go with DW (although it's more like 10% speed actually because it only affects recovery, so not gamechanging but still good). You still should keep a shield as a backup (best shield is Sura's supper plate as it gives retaliation).

 

Good items:

Resolution (saber)

Purgatory (saber)

 

Sura's supper plate (retaliation, shield)

 

Hiro's mantle (retaliation, if you can buy it)

or

Finreath's grace

or

Talisman of the Unconquerable (random loot)

 

Coat of ill payment (retaliation)

or

Sanguine plate (no retaliation in 1.05, but frenzy is good)

 

Shod in Faith boots

 

Blunting belt

or

Girdle of Maegfolc Might

 

Ring of deflection

Ring of protection

 

rotfinger gloves

 

Dynryd demon (helmet)

or

Helmet of Darksee(bit of extra defense)

or

Munacra Arret (extra charms never hurt anyone)

 

There are some other good item combinations, but this is a good baseline to look at.

 

Adra dragon is actually not too difficult as a cipher with mind plague .

 

Some more exotic stat distributions:

 

1. Lower (or even dump) dex: This allows to get better deflection via higher per. But this build is reliant on retal items for focus generation and effectiveness drops significantly if there are no enemies to fight in melee. Note that firearm attack speed is less dependent on dex, so they are a good option for some burst generation when retal is not optimal.

 

2. Dump int: This is really weird for cipher, but it can work, as a number of powerful cipher spells gets nothing from INT:

Antipathetic Field

Amplified Thrust/Mind Blades (well, these are not so powerful, but still)

Ectopsychic Echo

Mind Lance

 

And stuff like Amplified Wave is still decent because it has a huge AoE in the first place.

 

This guts your CC but is actually a decent option for pure dps.

 

3. Dump both per and res and max con. Go Fire Godlike with heavy armor, retal and scion of flame (soul whip damage bonus works with battleforged).

You'll likely want to stick to faster abilities and weapon and/or use concentration buffs, but you'll be quite survivable, deal crazy retal damage and get a lot of mileage out of retal damage and focus gain. (A common misconception is that battleforged generates focus - it does not (which is weird btw as it's a retal attack), but it's still good because it gets a 40% damage bonus).

Edited May 24, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Exoduss]

Main trade off melee vs ranged imo is : Time Spent Moving/Positioning , Terrible Pathfinding , Terrible encounter design with too many enemy that limits moving alot , no? thats why i think Melee were given better talents than ranged?

[Portrait]

There shouldn't be an issue with the stats you posted, if you want to boost your cipher then boost his major stats "intellect & might".

[Raven Darkholme]

Melee cipher IS the best cipher since melee dps > ranged dps and dps is directly tied to cipher's casting ability. Cipher's also only 5 deflection and 2 endurance/level below classes like monk. Never heard complaints about monk being a bad offtank. Low level cipher tanking spells are pretty weak though (I'd really like to see psychovampiric shield buffed). Borrowed instinct/body attunement are good but come quite late. Main tradeoff in melee vs ranged is robe vs heavy armor.

 

Stat distribution is about offense vs defense, but in cipher's case offense is also defense in many cases. Your stat distribution looks viable, although I'd go more dex over might actually.

 

As for weapon style, I'd go both DW and W&S in your 2 weapon sets and switch accordingly (when focused by multiple enemies -> shield). The question is what style talent to pick, as you are light on talents. If you're not soloing I'd go with DW (although it's more like 10% speed actually because it only affects recovery, so not gamechanging but still good). You still should keep a shield as a backup (best shield is Sura's supper plate as it gives retaliation).

 

Good items:

Resolution (saber)

Purgatory (saber)

 

Sura's supper plate (retaliation, shield)

 

Hiro's mantle (retaliation, if you can buy it)

or

Finreath's grace

or

Talisman of the Unconquerable (random loot)

 

Coat of ill payment (retaliation)

or

Sanguine plate (no retaliation in 1.05, but frenzy is good)

 

Shod in Faith boots

 

Blunting belt

or

Girdle of Maegfolc Might

 

Ring of deflection

Ring of protection

 

rotfinger gloves

 

Dynryd demon (helmet)

or

Helmet of Darksee(bit of extra defense)

or

Munacra Arret (extra charms never hurt anyone)

 

There are some other good item combinations, but this is a good baseline to look at.

 

Adra dragon is actually not too difficult as a cipher with mind plague .

 

Some more exotic stat distributions:

 

1. Lower (or even dump) dex: This allows to get better deflection via higher per. But this build is reliant on retal items for focus generation and effectiveness drops significantly if there are no enemies to fight. Note that firearm attack speed is less dependent on dex, so they are a good option for some burst generation when retal is not optimal.

 

2. Dump int: This is really weird for cipher, but it can work, as a number of powerful cipher spells gets nothing from INT:

Antipathetic Field

Amplified Thrust/Mind Blades (well, these are not so powerful, but still)

Ectopsychic Echo

Mind Lance

 

And stuff like Amplified Wave is still decent because it has a huge AoE in the first place.

 

This guts your CC but is actually a decent option for pure dps.

 

3. Dump both per and res and max con. Go Fire Godlike with heavy armor, retal and scion of flame (soul whip damage bonus works with battleforged).

You'll likely want to stick to faster abilities and weapon and/or use concentration buffs, but you'll be quite survivable, deal crazy retal damage and get a lot of mileage out of retal damage and focus gain. (A common misconception is that battleforged generates focus - it does not (which is weird btw as it's a retal attack), but it's still good because it gets a 40% damage bonus).

I didn't try adra back then, because I never fought it before.^^ (and had problems wirh sky already, until you pointdd me to rotfinger :D)

Very good post as always from you.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[Hopekiller]

Thanks for the very informative answers. I went with my statdistribution because I feel bad about my PC dumping stats in regards to that it feels bad putting my name on someone who is really stupid or a wuss, but I kinda had to dump one stat to get the others (which from what I've read seems more usefull than PER) to a decent level.

 

Since I'm new, this thread actually got posted a few hours after I started playing. I'm lvl 4, but think I might restart since I made some custom companions I'm not very satisfied with.

 

I think my party will be something like this:

Maintank - Eder or custom fighter. I don't have any idea how the statdistribution should look like for a tanking fighter, so any suggestions here would be welcome

Offtank\DPS - Melee Cipher with retaliate items - PC

 

Healer (Ranged DPS) - Durance or custom priest. I heard Durance was an interesting character and his attributes don't look that horrible, so might go with him. Was thinking of putting an Arquebus on him and take Marksman and Gunner talents. Seems like a decent choice of weapon since it has high "one-time-damage" to use inbetween casting, and it seems like the unique Arquebus is more of a supportweapon which fits nicely with my idea of Priest. Again not sure on attributes, but it seems dumping CON and PER is ok since it's a ranged caster.

 

Ranged DPS - Rogue. I'm thinking max might and dex, dumpster perception. Still, a solid distribution is welcome as well as advice on weapons. Initially I was thinking he could use shotguns since I won't have a ranged Cipher, but then again, I read that a Warbow(?) was one of the best weapons for him\her.

 

So, that makes four party-members and here's where I'm having trouble deciding.

I think I want a Chanter, but not sure wether I want it as a proper offtank or if I want to use him as ranged with the reloadspeed chant. Using him as a ranged buffer seems good, IF I go with 3 ranged dps that benefit from it. If it's only the priest and rogue, I'm not so sure it's worth.

 

Assuming an offtank - Is might important? Since he doesn't seem very microintensive I was thinking he could be a scrollusing guy. But when I made a tanky Chanter I went and dumpstered might and dex. Does this affect the castingspeed and damage on the scrolls I use? It seems to do so, but I'm not sure.

 

Assuming ranged dps\buffbot - I was thinking Arquebus, but since that was my plan for priest as well, I don't know if there will be enough good weapons. Maybe using one of those huge crossbows is an option?

 

So, if that makes 5 party members, I seem to be lacking some proper way to deal with huge ammounts of mobs and deal AoE CC, apart from the Cipher.

I'm thinking a Wizard would be a good choice. Slicken is a great spell, but I find I'm having trouble properly utilizing his damagedealing spells due to friendly fire and positioning. Hell, even just the melee Cipher can be difficult sometimes (antipathethic field and mobs running around in random directions). My other option would be to use Grieving Mother for something, she is after all the Grieving MILF and I am the supporting father. Her stat distribution seems "weird" for a ranged char, but might be ok as melee (tho I already have a melee Cipher so she would probably be a ranged CC bot or something), also not sure if it's ok to do two Ciphers. 

 

Now, onto a "problem" I was having last night..

I was rushing through the game to pick up all the NPC companions and the gear I get from grabbing Palagina. I was trying to figure out how to grab the Sura's Supperplate shield, which from what I read was the easiest accessible retaliate item. However, I went to Dyrford Village and visited the temple, but Beodan was not there and I couldn't get to Cliaban Rilag. I went back to Ondra's Fire and visited the Temple in my mainquest, and was told by a ghost that the easiest entrance was in Copperlane. 

 

The reason I did that was because I read that the presence of Beodan in the temple in Dyrford was reliant on MQ progression. However, I also don't want to rush ahead too much and was wondering if anyone could give me a description on how to rush the shield, and also, how much I have to do from where I am now (just visited the temple and got told to go to Copperlane for an entrance). 

 

And again, thanks for helpfull advice.

[adaxe]

Melee cipher might be a good idea, but tank cipher definitely not. Cipher has low health even in 1.05. To "get endless focus" by retail in PotD, a cipher has to rest every few encounters to regen health. 

[srlapo]

Ciphers can tank very well, but it hurts focus generation a lot. I am not sure how viable that is for a POTD run. Works fine on hard, I am currently running a 6 cipher team, and one plays the tank role. Most fights are easier than with more "balanced" teams.
As for DPS melee cipher, build it like a melee rogue, they have the same endurance/health and play more or less the same.

[Raven Darkholme]

When I can do it solo on Potd, why would it be hard in a party. Was before 1.05, too.

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh the difference between most class base tanking stats is fairly marginal in 1.05 and you can make anything out of anyone. It's more about unique abilities and spells usually. Cipher has 5 deflection more than a rogue and 5 less than a chanter. They all have the same endurance and health. People often use chanters as offtanks.

 

It's also about how fast you kill, because if you kill faster you don't get hit as much. Same if you CC better. Granted, I wouldn't use cipher as a main tank if I wanted an optimal party, but in a 6 man party you can do whatever you want really.

[the streaker]

Chanter works well as a tank because his chants are not slowed by armor penalty, and a few of them are pretty good at short range when in melee. Cipher's focus gain is directly proportional to armor penalty, and in range he can wear plain clothes and focus fire more easily.

Edited May 24, 2015 by the streaker

[MadDemiurg]

Thing is, melee dps is much higher. Even in heavy armor melee dw would do more dps than any ranged weapon with robes/clothing. Also, quite a few cipher spells are good at short range when in melee. Max dps would be melee with robe of course, but then you have to babysit such character a lot.

Edited May 24, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Bubbles]

Why not just use a reach weapon?

[the streaker]

Why not just use a reach weapon?

 

I guess because reach weapons are missing the benefits that some of the other weapons have. Also, if you build him as a "ranged" character, you lose another tank. It's all a finely balanced tradeoff (which I don't think a lot of people appreciate about this game, which is a shame).

 

Ranged - big hits (highest DR bypass), slow (low DPS), highest accuracy, most safe from afar, best ability to focus fire targets for improved party killing speed.

Reach melee - medium DPS, medium DR bypass, medium safety, medium ability to focus fire, cannot tank if built squishy.

Melee - highest DPS (unless target has high DR), weakest DR bypass, least safe, very limited ability to focus fire, acts as a tank (blocks enemies).