Are Paladins really not that bad?

[CriticalFailure]

But you can still do it, that's the point. You may want to play a paladin for other reasons than sheer optimisation while still wanting to be something else than a mere meat shield.

 

Which doesn't mean that paladins are the best at it or don't need a buff.

 

Edit: Ninja'd. I was replying to gkathellar.

Edited April 27, 2015 by CriticalFailure

[gkathellar]

casters will appear badly overpowered compared to any non-caster class in the damage, CC/debuff, and support roles.

 

Naw, it's just that of the two support classes, one sucks at doing support, and the other doesn't.

[mazeltov]

Naw, it's just that of the two support classes, one sucks at doing support, and the other doesn't.

 

About the level of commentary I've come to expect.

[Longknife]

 

Another class can do it better.

 

It's not a competition, contrary to what the prevalent optimization brain-rot on the forums tends to imply.

 

 

You don't get it.

 

None of us here who are trashing a Paladin's capabilities are saying "min-maxing and optimizing is the only way to play this game." We're saying that the fact of the matter is, people play the things that work decently well. If we were to, for example, look at the Binding of Isaac Rebirth characters, then Azazel is the most popular one because he's considered the strongest, whereas Lazarus is very unpopular and rarely played because his gimmick is so specialized that you rarely get an opportunity to make proper use out of it.  There's theories that people will always use the most practical means in a game setting, so to that extent, proper balance is neccesary to make sure every portion of the game is utilized by the general audience. If it's not, then much of that content gets skipped over. That's just how it is.

 

  So when you're examining if the class can compete, it has nothing to do with those of us making these arguments being incapable of playing anything but perfectly optimized squads, and everything to do with the fact that the other classes all have grades ranging from A+ to B- and Paladin is chilling out at D.  None of us sit here and speculate what the worth of a Barbarian over a Monk or a Rogue over a Monk or the like because those classes are good ENOUGH and close ENOUGH that even if we were to find overwhelming evidence one is typically better than the other, they get the job done within the same degree of reliability. Paladin lags painfully far behind though.

 

 

   I've said this before, but Paladin was my first character. I think Paladin could be the most fun class in the game with proper optimization, thanks to all the further specialized skills they have based on their orders. But I abandoned that first character really quick when the Priest that was my second character was world's easier, and then as I went down the list trying all the different classes, it began to become painfully obvious that Paladins weren't just slightly weaker or "late bloomers" (classes that kick ass in later stages of the game) or a class that only experts of Pillars can appreciate (for example Thief preset in Dark Souls is something only a player experienced in backstabs, dodging and parrying can appreciate, but they'll REALLY appreciate it if they can)....Nope, Paladin just sucks.

 

 

 

  But since this all has the tone of "Paladin sucks" "no it doesn't" going back and forth, here's my question to you:

 

Name a battle in this game where a Paladin can single-handedly be pivotal in surviving that encounter. Name one where Paladin can make an encounter world's easier and there's no other class alternative that can do the same. Fighters and Monks can do a great job vs. fampyrs, Wizards and Druids do an excellent job vs. any battle that has tons of enemies to deal with, Priests are a godsend in any battle where there's a damage over time spell that needs healing off your team and Chanters do excellent in longer fights. What battle do Paladins excel in....?

[mazeltov]

Name a battle in this game where a Paladin can single-handedly be pivotal in surviving that encounter. Name one where Paladin can make an encounter world's easier and there's no other class alternative that can do the same. Fighters and Monks can do a great job vs. fampyrs, Wizards and Druids do an excellent job vs. any battle that has tons of enemies to deal with, Priests are a godsend in any battle where there's a damage over time spell that needs healing off your team and Chanters do excellent in longer fights. What battle do Paladins excel in....?

 

Paladins are not designed to be the best at either of their roles, tank or support. They can be built viably in both directions, however, and a support specialized Paladin provides a less dramatic, but steadier form of support than Priests (or they would if Priests, as Vancian spellcasters, were allowed to run out of gas in the way the Rest mechanic envisions). Not that comparisons between classes fulfilling the same role are a concern, as I mentioned before, as long as both can perform adequately. And about that.

 

The exact types of support a Paladin provides are determined by its Order, but Kind Wayfarers can for example provide two sources of AoE healing that are incidental to other actions, not the result of actions spent casting. With another Talent, each killing blow can provide a moderate generic Defense buff in a large radius, which lingers for a moderate time (more than enough time to score another killing blow). Multiple support abilities can proc on the same killing blow. As Paladins are consummate team players, not lone wonders, this style encourages other members of the party to help the Paladin trigger his abilities, which is a co-dependent design feature that other classes could take lessons from, not one that should be cut out of Paladin.

 

Besides its on-kill abilities, which are what set Paladin support apart playstylistically from other supports, it also has Exhortations and Auras. Exhortations are well-known to be a mixed bag and pretty situational, though all reactive support is situational. There probably will be some needed tweaks to Exhortations. Among Auras, Zealous Charge in particular is an interesting case because its effect is hard to get from other sources, and where it is available elsewhere, as from Chanter, is lower quality and probably not something a Chanter would want to be burning Phrase time on anyway.

 

Taking stock. Is full support Paladin more difficult to play than tank Paladin? Yes. Is it more difficult to get results with than Priest? Yes. But it can get results.

[b0rsuk]

Priests may be the best force multiplier, but you get something like 5 * 2. With Paladin, you get something like 6 * 1.5. My point is that with a paladin you are not one man down. One priest is good, but I'd rather have two paladins than two priests (especially when Faith&Conviction is fixed for non-primary character).

 

The class is not broken conceptually. Some numbers can be adjusted and it will be fine. I want single-target boosts to have enough power/duration that their slow casting is justified.

Edited April 27, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Longknife]

 

Name a battle in this game where a Paladin can single-handedly be pivotal in surviving that encounter. Name one where Paladin can make an encounter world's easier and there's no other class alternative that can do the same. Fighters and Monks can do a great job vs. fampyrs, Wizards and Druids do an excellent job vs. any battle that has tons of enemies to deal with, Priests are a godsend in any battle where there's a damage over time spell that needs healing off your team and Chanters do excellent in longer fights. What battle do Paladins excel in....?

 

Paladins are not designed to be the best at either of their roles, tank or support. They can be built viably in both directions, however, and a support specialized Paladin provides a less dramatic, but steadier form of support than Priests (or they would if Priests, as Vancian spellcasters, were allowed to run out of gas in the way the Rest mechanic envisions). Not that comparisons between classes fulfilling the same role are a concern, as I mentioned before, as long as both can perform adequately. And about that.

 

The exact types of support a Paladin provides are determined by its Order, but Kind Wayfarers can for example provide two sources of AoE healing that are incidental to other actions, not the result of actions spent casting. With another Talent, each killing blow can provide a moderate generic Defense buff in a large radius, which lingers for a moderate time (more than enough time to score another killing blow). Multiple support abilities can proc on the same killing blow. As Paladins are consummate team players, not lone wonders, this style encourages other members of the party to help the Paladin trigger his abilities, which is a co-dependent design feature that other classes could take lessons from, not one that should be cut out of Paladin.

 

Besides its on-kill abilities, which are what set Paladin support apart playstylistically from other supports, it also has Exhortations and Auras. Exhortations are well-known to be a mixed bag and pretty situational, though all reactive support is situational. There probably will be some needed tweaks to Exhortations. Among Auras, Zealous Charge in particular is an interesting case because its effect is hard to get from other sources, and where it is available elsewhere, as from Chanter, is lower quality and probably not something a Chanter would want to be burning Phrase time on anyway.

 

Taking stock. Is full support Paladin more difficult to play than tank Paladin? Yes. Is it more difficult to get results with than Priest? Yes. But it can get results.

 

 

 

So you can't. You can't name a battle scenario where Paladin is vital. Do you see why Paladin gets benched when almost every other class can name a battle where they're very useful or practically vital to a win, but Paladin can't accomplish this? The player needs motivation to use Paladin, and so far the motivation we've got is pathetic.

 

Likewise, you go on to praise that Paladin has a style that "encourages other members of the party to help the Paladin trigger his abilities." That's exactly the problem. If I need to temporarily disable every enemy on the field, a Wizard can do so just by casting a spell. If I need to cover a teammate whose in danger because a hard-hitting enemy has reached a less-tanky teammate, Cipher can likely paralyze that enemy with one quick cast, as can Fighter with some of his skills. If I need an enemy to go down really quick, a Monk is going to achieve that with just a couple of Torment's Reach casts, which may sound like a lot, but with their attack speed it's a matter of a couple seconds so long as you're willing to pause and assign each cast. All of these classes can very quickly and concisely provide answers to any problems you might have.

 

  Paladin needs a very specific setup that's heavily team-reliant. And for what? Some extra endurance or a terrified debuff on the enemy. The benefits themselves are horrendously pathetic. While Wizard gets a whole group of enemies prone, confused, asleep or even petrified at the very end of the game, Paladin can....frighten. And for the endurance boosts? I can say with confidence that Paladin is the only class I know that's got a skill made obsolete by a race. Instead of working hard to set up a kill for that endurance, why not just make the Paladin a Moon Godlike? Exact same effect, but without the weird demand in order to trigger it. Just make him a frontline tank and it'll proc.

 

 

Do you not see how the amount of effort a Paladin demands is unprecedented? Even if you consider it fun, there's a serious problem when one class has to pull off what's effectively a combo and no other class has to do that.

  Do you not see how Paladin is unflexible? How the moment something goes wrong and maybe the guy who was supposed to set up a kill for Paladin crits and then it all falls apart? Or how the Paladin might get stunned before the killing blow, in which case you've either wasted unneccesary attention on something that didn't pay off OR you'll leave that guy alive that much longer just to wait for Paladin to be ready to kill the guy?

 

 

Among Auras, Zealous Charge in particular is an interesting case because its effect is hard to get from other sources, and where it is available elsewhere, as from Chanter, is lower quality and probably not something a Chanter would want to be burning Phrase time on anyway.

 

So what's wasteful for Chanter isn't wasteful for Paladin? Can you not see how either:

 

A.) You're grasping at straws and attempting to praise a horrendously mediocre ability that only a fraction of players waste a level on

 

OR

 

B.) If this truly is something fancy amongst the Paladin's line up, it really says something about how awful the Paladin's line up is?

 

 

 

I essentially asked you to provide me with an example encounter where Paladin really shined and to give it praise if and when that praise is deserved in a fight scenario. Instead, you both refuse to do that and much of your post actually provides criticism of Paladins existing skills.

 

There is a clear problem.

[gkathellar]

Taking stock. Is full support Paladin more difficult to play than tank Paladin? Yes. Is it more difficult to get results with than Priest? Yes. But it can get results.

 

"It can get results," is not equivalent to, "it's balanced or valuable relative to the other classes."

 

If all you're looking for is a class that's better than nothing, more power to you. But because of its scattered and incoherent design, the paladin contributes less than any other class.

[mazeltov]

Do you not see how the amount of effort a Paladin demands is unprecedented? Even if you consider it fun, there's a serious problem when one class has to pull off what's effectively a combo and no other class has to do that.

 

There is a problem, in that most of the other classes get their payoffs too easily. If Balance Man stays true to form, his fix will include significant nerfs to the classes that are overperforming (e.g. casters), and targeted buffs for others.

 

As far as irrelevant hypotheticals go, no, I tried to turn a bad question into an opportunity for a useful explanation. Paladins are helpful not in any specific encounter, but in every encounter. With respect to full support Paladins, you get out of it what you put in. If players ignore half the Paladin support abilities ("too much effort") and then complain about Paladins lacking support, well...

[Sanctuary]

 

If a Paladin isn't tanking then what exactly is it doing?

 

Supporting, attacking, supporting through attacking. The usual things a character who is not tanking does. Building overtanky weakens the key Paladin gimmick of support delivery: abilities that activate on killing blows.

 

Which is not to say that a stereotypical tank build doesn't work well on Paladins. It does, but it also militates against the supporty aspects. Build diversity in action.

 

On any difficulty lower than PotD, you'd have pretty much zero reason to use a Paladin for "support" or "support tanking" since their group support is supplanted by infinitely superior damage from either a Monk or Barbarian, both of which can "tank" relatively well if it's truly needed.  Barbarian will more than likely be tanking an enemy or two most of the time anyway by default.

 

There's also too much overlap going on with the Paladin and Chanter, yet the Chanter's chants have a ridiculously huge radius compared to the Paladin's miniscule aura range (which needs to be 2x as much if not more to even be a consideration).

Edited April 27, 2015 by Sanctuary

[mazeltov]

On any difficulty lower than PotD, you'd have pretty much zero reason to use a Paladin for "support" or "support tanking" since their group support is supplanted by infinitely superior damage from either a Monk or Barbarian, both of which can "tank" relatively well if it's truly needed.  Barbarian will more than likely be tanking an enemy or two most of the time anyway by default.

 

There's also too much overlap going on with the Paladin and Chanter, yet the Chanter's chants have a ridiculously huge radius compared to the Paladin's miniscule aura range (which needs to be 2x as much if not more to even be a consideration).

 

The game is not and will not be balanced around PotD. 

 

Zealous Charge, the only Paladin Aura that really stands out (in a world with heavy but inconsistently applied bonus Suppression), matches Chanter Songs for radius.

[Crescent Hawk]

Paladins are just uninspired class. They would probably work pretty well in a turn based game.

 

"The game is not and will not be balanced around PotD." 

 

Thats what I have been doing wrong with my Paladin, thanks mazeltov

I should have just picked easy.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Crescent Hawk

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

 

So you can't. You can't name a battle scenario where Paladin is vital. Do you see why Paladin gets benched when almost every other class can name a battle where they're very useful or practically vital to a win, but Paladin can't accomplish this? The player needs motivation to use Paladin, and so far the motivation we've got is pathetic.

 

 

 

I essentially asked you to provide me with an example encounter where Paladin really shined and to give it praise if and when that praise is deserved in a fight scenario. Instead, you both refuse to do that and much of your post actually provides criticism of Paladins existing skills.

 

There is a clear problem.

 

How is any class vital in any encounter if you can easily solo the game on Potd with any class, not only including pala, but him being one of the best at it?

This thread is only good for giggles anymore, solid arguments been lost many pages ago.

[Longknife]

How is any class vital in any encounter if you can easily solo the game on Potd with any class, not only including pala, but him being one of the best at it?

This thread is only good for giggles anymore, solid arguments been lost many pages ago.

 

 

Look at those solo vids and see how much cheese is typically going on to accomplish it.

 

But of course if we're speaking literally, of course no class is "vital." What I meant more is that if I'm fighting a battle with 30+ enemies on my screen, then fighting that battle with and without a Wizard will feel as different as night and day. If I'm fighting the Adra dragon with and without a Fighter? Check how many tips involve sending a Fighter off on his own to draw fire and then just res himself if he happens to die. The point was to name a scenario where having a Paladin makes a battle world's easier to the point where it feels as different as night and day, because unfortunately there simply aren't many at all and the one I could think of saw two other classes offering better alternatives.

[Raven Darkholme]

I'm soloing with a paladin myself right now and needed way less cheese to get to level 9 than with my cipher who beat the game solo Potd. Figurines, even though they are not really cheesy aren't that important with the paladin for many reasons, main reasons: Better deflection and no need for an "ally" to cast spells on (Amplified wave or Ectoplasmic Echo anyone?)

I even restarted a 2nd pala since the first one which I already had to 8 had only 8 DEX. Now my goal is to have enough reflex to withstand Adras breath. On level 9 I already got 140 reflex and I haven't picked the +10 talent nor deep faith yet, which gives another 5 reflex. Goal is to have at least 170 base reflex and buff reflex some more by temporary effects.

Remember that sky dragon solo vid of the fighter not needing figurines, potions and pausing but still getting hit quite a bit? The pala will NOT get hit by that baby version of Adra at all. Even grazes will be very rare in melee and reflex.

 

I really am starting to love sworn enemy since it lasts till a marked enemy goes down.Thats gonna be sooo good against dragons.

[Longknife]

I'm soloing with a paladin myself right now and needed way less cheese to get to level 9 than with my cipher who beat the game solo Potd. Figurines, even though they are not really cheesy aren't that important with the paladin for many reasons, main reasons: Better deflection and no need for an "ally" to cast spells on (Amplified wave or Ectoplasmic Echo anyone?)

I even restarted a 2nd pala since the first one which I already had to 8 had only 8 DEX. Now my goal is to have enough reflex to withstand Adras breath. On level 9 I already got 140 reflex and I haven't picked the +10 talent nor deep faith yet, which gives another 5 reflex. Goal is to have at least 170 base reflex and buff reflex some more by temporary effects.

Remember that sky dragon solo vid of the fighter not needing figurines, potions and pausing but still getting hit quite a bit? The pala will NOT get hit by that baby version of Adra at all. Even grazes will be very rare in melee and reflex.

 

I really am starting to love sworn enemy since it lasts till a marked enemy goes down.Thats gonna be sooo good against dragons.

 

 

Which doesn't mean much of anything.  By now I think it's all but confirmed that solo play relies on very specific builds or tactics that more or less negate much of the class benefits with very few exceptions. (for example I would expect Monk to do better solo cause I myself have had battles on my games where monks have been cut off alone and still managed to bring down a group alone)

 

None of this will mean jack in squad gameplay, where that Cipher is still going to eat the Paladin's spot because he offers better CC and damage.

[knownastherat]

I would like to point out as part of my weekly routine, because the nonsense about cheese is ever present, that if its  possible to beat toughest enemies and encounters in the game solo without using the so-called cheese, though its was implemented to the game by developers without noting such property, the game would be quite broken.

 

I would also like to point that there is no real challenge in single player game. Well, maybe Deep Blue. Real challenges, real difficulties requiring real skills, are present only in multiplayer environment with dynamically adapting behavior of human opponents. IE games AI has IQ about 30 in human terms is my guess.

 

That concludes my point: calling something cheese repeatedly does not make for elite player. In single, there are no others.

[Longknife]

I would like to point out as part of my weekly routine, because the nonsense about cheese is ever present, that if its  possible to beat toughest enemies and encounters in the game solo without using the so-called cheese, though its was implemented to the game by developers without noting such property, the game would be quite broken.

 

I would also like to point that there is no real challenge in single player game. Well, maybe Deep Blue. Real challenges, real difficulties requiring real skills, are present only in multiplayer environment with dynamically adapting behavior of human opponents. IE games AI has IQ about 30 in human terms is my guess.

 

That concludes my point: calling something cheese repeatedly does not make for elite player. In single, there are no others.

 

 

Don't know why you're saying this because I don't know when I implied cheese was something elite players don't use. I call it cheese because it's a universal working tactic that's reliable and effective, but tedious and stupid. I've never heard someone say they enjoy using cheese tactics, have you?

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh my own paladin solo experience is extremely tedious. They deal very low damage, have little utility and don't really come into their own until late game when defence stacking finally pays off and lets you get mostly grazes. You can say they use less "cheese" because they don't have many options apart from facetanking to begin with. A lot of fights that can be easily beaten by the aforementioned cipher at low level are simply not doable by the low level paladin (because facetanking doesn't work). Scroll usage is also quite extensive and can be regarded as "cheesy" as figurines or other consumables, although in my book all of them are totally legit, since they do not abuse any bugs in game mechanics.

[gkathellar]

Tbh my own paladin solo experience is extremely tedious. They deal very low damage, have little utility and don't really come into their own until late game when defence stacking finally pays off and lets you get mostly grazes. You can say they use less "cheese" because they don't have many options apart from facetanking to begin with. A lot of fights that can be easily beaten by the aforementioned cipher at low level are simply not doable by the low level paladin (because facetanking doesn't work). Scroll usage is also quite extensive and can be regarded as "cheesy" as figurines or other consumables, although in my book all of them are totally legit, since they do not abuse any bugs in game mechanics.

 

QFT. Sometimes I will get up and get a glass of water in the middle of a fight. When I get back, my paladin will still be standing in that bottleneck, flailing away.

 

My experience so far is that the solo paladin depends a lot on pulling mobs and using consumables. They finally start to catch up around level 5-6, but even then, you really depend on knowing exactly which fights you're ready for. You really can't afford to overextend yourself at all.

[Raven Darkholme]

My experience as to tanking was different it works quite early and in low level Darcozzi Flames help quite a lot. The pala has no AoE damage but his single target damage is alright, especially if you use sworn enemy he does mire damage on high def enemies than the cipher.

[MadDemiurg]

You can't be serious about damage. Sworn enemy is like level 7. By level 9 cipher gets tac meld and/or borrowed instinct, negating any accuracy advantages paladin might have. Not mentioning the +40% damage that is always on and spells that do far more damage than any weapon. And the ability to target will/ref/fort and most enemies have at least one of these at much lower level than deflection. Darcozzi fire shield is alright for the fist few levels, but it's pretty much a dead talent later on. It doesn't help you to be tankier either, only dish out some damage in return (if it hits).

[MoxyWoo]

^What Mad said.

 

The thing is Paladin does shine at low levels due to having the Fires Talent, but even then it has some issues like needing to hit unlike an auto hit of the retaliation.  Its always fire damage at base 10 dmg so is quickly outshone later.  Even with Vulnerable attack up, it just barely let's you eek through most of the DR of the low to mid level mobs.  Later on, expect it to do minimum damage as the paladin really has no way to increase it easily.

 

The pros it has though during Act 1 is good though, the 5 freeze DT means shades hurt less which are the most annoying monster and it targets reflex which is nice.  Later on, every class brings more to the group though and the paladin just feels sort of flat.  Maybe the thread should be titled.... "Paladins are not that bad, but they're not that good either, so why bother taking one," which would be the most accurate way to describe them as most of their support is overwrriten, and tanking duties for a retaliation build are actually much better on other classes.

[Raven Darkholme]

It

You can't be serious about damage. Sworn enemy is like level 7. By level 9 cipher gets tac meld and/or borrowed instinct, negating any accuracy advantages paladin might have. Not mentioning the +40% damage that is always on and spells that do far more damage than any weapon. And the ability to target will/ref/fort and most enemies have at least one of these at much lower level than deflection. Darcozzi fire shield is alright for the fist few levels, but it's pretty much a dead talent later on. It doesn't help you to be tankier either, only dish out some damage in return (if it hits).

It actually is level 6 which you reach right after Caed Nua. Fires is only good at low, yes but thats what I said anyway. ;p

[b0rsuk]

No, it's not level6. TALENTS are on even levels, abilities are on odd ones. I just checked to make sure and Sworn Enemy is level 5 (five).

 

So, you could build a paladin like this:

1: Flames of Devotion

2: Fires of Darcozzi Palace

3: Zealous Focus

4: Weapon Focus: XYZ

5: Sworn Enemy

6: Intense Flames, or Deep Faith, or whatever

 

As to what paladins are meant to do, what they're designed to do, it is very clear:

TANKY support. I say TANKY, because their recommended attributes at character creation are:

Resolve, Perception, Might, Constitution. There's no mention of Intelligence and Dexterity !

Edited April 29, 2015 by b0rsuk