Are Paladins really that bad?

[Brimsurfer]

In my experience I am finding out that pretty much any class is more useful than Paladins, in any kind of party composition;

 

For example,

If I want a full tank, Fighter or a Monk are definitely better options than a Paladin

If I want a full second tank or dps-off tank, Monk is a much better option, or a Barbarian will also do better than a Paladin

If I want a semi-tank support or support off-tank (whatever you want to call it), Chanter is my best bet, works a lot better than Paladin (Also I am playing a heavy armor melee Priest, she is not an off-tank but she is actually holding out her own very well in melee, proving quite resilient, against an enemy or two in melee......and she is also doing a hell of a job supporting the whole party)

If I want full support, I rather get a Priest instead of Paladin, because Priests are much better supporters.

If I want a damage dealer, I shouldn't even think about Paladins, specially when I have Druids, Wizards, Rogues and Rangers to pick from.

 

Now, I understand that Paladin does not excel at any of these roles but he does little bit of everything.........but whats the point? Really what IS the point of having a class that does a little bit of everything but does not excel or focus at anything, specially when there are 10 other classes to pick from and the maximum party size is 6.

 

I just don't understand the design here, what is the point here in designing such a class in a game with this given meta? 

 

Now take a look at this............One guy is a specialised surgeon, the other is an astronaut, the third is a doctor of physics, the fourth guy is a civil engineer and now this guy here.............. he is a really SPECIAL guy he can do little bit of everything, he can diagnose a little bit of cough and fever and he knows the name of couple of solar systems, he also teaches second grade maths at local junior high...... oh and he also knows a little bit about driving bulldozers to level the roads and concrete........?!?!?!...........seriously what is the point? This  guy will never be able to compete or measure up against the first four guys, he is more like a jack-ass than jack of all trades, if compared to the other four.

 

And this is what I have found in my limited time, while playing as Paladin (PotD). I read basically the similar things about Paladins all over reddit and in several topics on this forum, though none of the posts were as blunt as my example above but the idea behind the criticism was the same.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[CriticalFailure]

Gromnir the Bhaalspawn was modeled after Gromnir the poster you've been arguing with.

I see, I wasn't aware of that (obviously ). It doesn't make it any less annoying to me, but good to know.

 

I'm curious now, was this done with any other characters?

[DracoSpirit86]

Jack of all trade's tend to shine when you need someone to cover several bases in your party for versus reasons.

[Longknife]

Jack of all trade's tend to shine when you need someone to cover several bases in your party for versus reasons.

 

 

The issue isn't with Jack of all trades as a style, the issue is with how much they contribute.

 

Currently, almost all other classes are specialists that provide 80-100% potential in a given category such as offense, defense, crowd control or support. Paladin meanwhile has 40%'s in every category. Paladin will NOT compete with 40%'s, those need to be cranked up to 60%'s for Paladin to be viable.

[Brimsurfer]

Jack of all trade's tend to shine when you need someone to cover several bases in your party for versus reasons.

Party can have up to 6 members and there are only 3 primary roles in this game, you can have two of each role in a party easily, you will never need a jack of all trades in this meta, unless that jack of all trades has the potential to become a damage dealer but Paladins are no damage dealers. And also the 10 other classes are all specialists.

 

I also agree with Longknife though, where he said the issue lies in the contribution numbers....that is absolutely true.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Gromnir]

 

Gromnir the Bhaalspawn was modeled after Gromnir the poster you've been arguing with.

I see, I wasn't aware of that (obviously ). It doesn't make it any less annoying to me, but good to know.

 

I'm curious now, was this done with any other characters?

 

depends on what you mean.  there were boardie cameos in bg2 and tob.  del, mencar pebble crusher and a few others others were names o' Co6 board regulars included in bg2.  folks such as yakman and draconis were included in tob.  there were also a couple npc contest winners (githyanki wild mage and scimitar hurling habib.)  however, other than the contest winners, the only thing the biowarins utilized in such situations were the board poster's name.  were nothing about frozen yakman the poster that were recognizable in yakman in tob.

 

lanfear were an exception.  the poster named lanfear were a big fan o' coran.  am suspecting that lanfear had a coran body-pillow made just so she could be close to him night and day.  anywho, the whole bg2 coran-safana-lanfear encounter in bg2 were kinda a funny directed at lanfear.  unfortunately, the lampooned poster did not see the funny in the joke.  were maybe not all that surprising-- lanfear were german afterall. she abandoned the forums after throwing a bit o' a tantrum regarding the attack on her character. 

 

but again, this is off-topic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps is something we seemingly  must needs add 'cause otherwise folks get the wrong idea.  none o' the poster cameos were earned.  biowarian developers had numerous reasons for including board posters in their games, and those reasons did not include the worth o' the poster's contribution.  is no ego stroking attached to the cameos... 'least there shouldn't be. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Gromnir

[illathid]

 

 

Also, for what it's worth I agree with Gromnir. The Paladin is excellent class, the major problem being that it is rather passive when compared to other melee classes. My PC paladin has deflection comparable to Eder, but is using an estoc and has done twice as much damage as him over my game.

When it comes to deflection it is impossible for a Paladin to be on equal footing as a Fighter (the Fighter should always have a small lead), especially when using an estoc as a Paladin. That is, unless you do not properly equip and/or build the fighter for tanking, while you do for the Paladin. But it is a minor detail, especially later in the game.

 

What is problematic with the Paladin is that while being a hair better at tanking than most other classes, his other uses are completely inadequate. His support abilities are minor at best and most are rendered pointless by Priests and Chanters (especially later on). Along with this, his offensive capabilities aren't much better than his supportive ones.

 

To underline this problem even further, I'll remind you that almost all optional traits and talents unique to the Paladin class have no bearing on tanking (for the Paladin) but do on support and offense. Again, area's where Paladins most people agree they're lackluster at.

I didn't say equal, I said comparable. As in close but not the same.

 

And that's with every ability and talent Eder has gotten being devoted to increasing his tanking ability. My paladin on the other hand has been taking abilities to increase his damage potential.

 

Is Eder the better tank? Yes, but he had to give up much of his damage potential to get there. My paladin can still tank fine (like when Eder gets dominated) but is the highest damage dealer in my party, (which includes grieving mother).

[Ceranai]

I don't even see how people can still be arguing about this. they are a decent tank and useful to have as a support but their damage is terrible. No reason not to stick them on the front lines but if you want to squeeze the most out of your party a monk or barbarian will be more useful as an off tank and a fighter will be able to out tank them. It isn't a huge difference but it is clear that there is a difference.

 

As to the PoTD solo run with it as has been said viable does not equal good, especially when all your dps relies on item use.

 

 

Ps to the poster above if you cipher is getting out dpsed by a paladin you aren't playing her right

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ceranai

[Raven Darkholme]

Cipher, Monk and Rogue are clearly the best damagers ingame, with the monk also being able to tank.

Question I've been asking myself about the monk if he isn't just a little broken.

But the monk never will be able to tank like the paladin and the fighter who is best tank doesn't have any viable support. Are people complaining about palas support even looking at the Zealous focus, LoH, Exhortations and even and even FoD combined with for example Shielding Touch? (The latter being the worst but still not bad.)

[eubatham]

But the monk never will be able to tank like the paladin and the fighter who is best tank doesn't have any viable support. Are people complaining about palas support even looking at the Zealous focus, LoH, Exhortations and even and even FoD combined with for example Shielding Touch? (The latter being the worst but still not bad.)

 

Yes, we are. Please read the entire thread.

 

If you don't wish to do this, then don't make these assumptions.

[Raven Darkholme]

@eubatham

I can't be bothered to read every single post, but I assume the last posts are up to date/adjusted, so why do I still read things like: "If I want a full tank, Fighter or a Monk are definitely better options than a Paladin"

"

RIP Paladins. Rest in Peace.

 

 

This means that a Fighter vs. a Paladin, as far as defense goes, looks like this:

 

Fighter:

 

15 Deflection, 10 of everything else and 35 deflection with 30 of everything else when Vigorous Defender is active

 

Paladin:

 

15 Deflection, 26 of everything else once both positive dispositions are maxed at 4 and Deep Faith is taken. (at the start of the game the paladin should have around 15 of the other defenses if just deep faith is taken)

 

 

It's a difference, but it just doesn't feel as though it's near enough to matter"

?

 

 

How do people still compare the fighter with no buffs with the paladin and his group buffs?

The only real good thing about fighters is, they engage more enemies, but against shadows and beetles that doesn't seem to matter and against most other enemies you don't need the tank to engage the melees as they will attack him anyway.

Oh and I forgot how the Outworn buckler gives defense to your whole party that is also a passive buff.

[Longknife]

How do people still compare the fighter with no buffs with the paladin and his group buffs?

The only real good thing about fighters is, they engage more enemies, but against shadows and beetles that doesn't seem to matter and against most other enemies you don't need the tank to engage the melees as they will attack him anyway.

Oh and I forgot how the Outworn buckler gives defense to your whole party that is also a passive buff.

 

Because:

 

1) Fighters can disable an enemy that's a big threat with a knock down, thereby decreasing the immediate pressure on them and decreasing incoming damage.

 

2) Fighters regenerate endurance over time. Yes, this DOES add up and become a factor. Paladin can lay on hands, but this can get interrupted or simply isn't an option during a stun or prone, meaning in some situations it just won't happen.

 

3) At higher levels, Fighters gain additional ways to regain health, easily outpacing Lay On Hands.

 

4) A Fighter is going to protect the team with higher engagement and the ability to pull enemies off of teammates. A Paladin's tankiness doesn't count for squat if they're helpless to protect the team.

 

5) Fighter honestly has better offensive capabilities aswell. While this is hardly a strong suit of Fighter or Paladin, I HAVE had fights where Fighter was last man standing and finished the job slowly but surely. I cannot say the same for Paladin, who typically succumbs to the enemy due to a lack of damage and lack of endurance regen.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Longknife

[peddroelm]

Didn't read whole thread 

 

Few tips about Flames of Devotion  (The sniper paladin build) (paladins can get some sick single shot damage twice per combat .. Can open fight with it, or can save'em for on kill effects during fight ).. Need high might, high accuracy, and as many + damage mods you can muster and hard hitting weapon (archebus/ arbalest/greatsword/pike)  (soldier weapon focus // accuracy aura)

 

Flames of devotion - like all lash enchantments is multiplicative to total damage inflicted BEFORE DR reduction AND WILL TYPICALLY HIT AGAINST REDUCED TARGET FIRE DR ..  

 

Flames of devotion + burning lash will add 75% total damage but only go against target fire resistance *0.5 .. 

 

Numeric example 1: 

 

Target had high pierce DR (9 + 5 from belt) and 9 burn DR... Flames of devotion + burning lash practically doubled damage vs target .. 

 

42.5 - DR :14.0 = 28.5 pierce + 27.4 burn = 

42.5 * 0.75 - 9*0.5 = 27.375

 

example 2: 

Target had high pierce DR (9 + 5 from belt) and 9 burn DR... Flames of devotion + burning lash + intense flames

 

46.5 - DR:14.0 = 32.5 pierce + 39.7 burn = 

(46.5 * (0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25)) - (9 * 0.75) =39.75

 

Weapon used was not ideal (fine burning arbalest ). Spike damage can get way higher (not rogue backstab but competing with rogue sneak attack).. Drink potion of accuracy before the money shot ..

 

//////////////////

 

example 3 NON-burning crossbow (flames of devotion + intense flames)

 

37.1 - DR:14.0= 23.1 pierce + 23.3 burn

(37.1 * 0.75) - (9 * 0.5) = 23.325

 

Again 25% fire DR bypass FTW ..

 

//////////////

% of DR used against lash elemental attacks is not intuitive - in player favor like above cases, against player in some other cases .. 

 

 

TL,DR Paladins are meant to kill stuff .. I think they work better in a  (somewhat tanky as protagonist) high damage dealer role than full decoy mode .. And should be more fun to play that way.. Damage scrolls can be used to trigger on kill effects (I might be wrong but I seem to remember paladin getting better scroll accuracy than chanter ).. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by peddroelm

[Raven Darkholme]

Knockdown isn't that good it lasts to short.

Endurance regen isn't that good moon godlikes and priests trivialize it.

LoH is really awesome, also a paladin doesn't get stunned easily, with level 4 he already has over 80 Fortitude without any buffs and items whatsoever except protection-ring. If you had a talent for Fortitude and max CO (80 is with 10 CO and mx MI) you would have over 100 Fortitude and Phantoms wouldn't even stun you if they gangbang you.

The engfagement is really good but as I said it doesn't help against teleporting and beetles. Other melees rarely get through to the squishies if you position right.

[Ram]

 

 

BTW, has anyone been able to confirm whether Deep Faith is a flat bonus or an increase to each disposition increase?

 

If it's a flat bonus, then Paladins suck even more than expected.

 

It's a flat bonus

 

 

RIP Paladins. Rest in Peace.

 

 

This means that a Fighter vs. a Paladin, as far as defense goes, looks like this:

 

Fighter:

 

15 Deflection, 10 of everything else and 35 deflection with 30 of everything else when Vigorous Defender is active

 

Paladin:

 

15 Deflection, 26 of everything else once both positive dispositions are maxed at 4 and Deep Faith is taken. (at the start of the game the paladin should have around 15 of the other defenses if just deep faith is taken)

 

 

It's a difference, but it just doesn't feel as though it's near enough to matter. Most incoming damage will be deflection-based, fortitude based attacks give you plenty of time to react to them, and will based attacks like stun, charm and petrify typically get spammed after the casters in the back. In practice, deflection is the number one concern for the frontline, and if a battle truly does have other problems such as spell spam or the like, Vigorous Defender, multiple heal methods and knockdown can keep the Fighter alive, whereas the Paladin....can't really do anything except hope it's raw stats are enough.

 

 

Ha ha... I like what you just said. It just makes me think of the Paladin as a no holds barred in your face tank. To me it makes it feel as if the Paladin is like the resiliance of human beings in reality when faced with death, and we overcome ridiculous situations that some people just can't comprehend how it's possible. That just makes me care more about my Paladin character. That is awesome. He don't need special abilities, as long as the stats are right - he'll own what he is and that's what I'm about in reality!

[Longknife]

TL,DR Paladins are meant to kill stuff .. I think they work better in a  (somewhat tanky as protagonist) high damage dealer role than full decoy mode .. And should be more fun to play that way.. Damage scrolls can be used to trigger on kill effects (I might be wrong but I seem to remember paladin getting better scroll accuracy than chanter ).. 

 

 

No.

 

Wanna know why?

A Monk's Torment's Reach is identical to Paladin's Flames of Devotion, except with Crush damage instead of flame damage. The difference is the Monk can spam Torment's Reach back to back and can easily get 6+ wounds to spam it with. A Paladin is capped at two and doesn't attack nearly as relentlessly as Monk.

 

It's also important to note that 50% additional damage = a crit. So classes like Rogue and Ranger are easily outpacing Paladin just by critting reliably as they do. Paladin cannot hold a candle to any of these three classes. A guarenteed crit is nice, but not when half your team can do it far better than you.

 

Knockdown isn't that good it lasts to short.

Endurance regen isn't that good moon godlikes and priests trivialize it.

LoH is really awesome, also a paladin doesn't get stunned easily, with level 4 he already has over 80 Fortitude without any buffs and items whatsoever except protection-ring. If you had a talent for Fortitude and max CO (80 is with 10 CO and mx MI) you would have over 100 Fortitude and Phantoms wouldn't even stun you if they gangbang you.

The engfagement is really good but as I said it doesn't help against teleporting and beetles. Other melees rarely get through to the squishies if you position right.

 

 

Isn't that good...? Prone means the target is easier to hit and takes more damage, and a proned target can easily buy time to save the fight. Sometimes the target you're proning spams stun or charm and having that guy on his butt is the window you need.

 

Your second argument is also odd, as you're basically saying "what Moon Godlike and Priests can do is really good and useful. Therefore, because the Fighter does the exact same thing to a smaller, more consistent degree, it's worthless." Lolwat no. Healed endurance is healed endurance, and it's VERY useful. The Fighter can essentially negate an entire opponent this way, something the Paladin cannot.

 

The Fortitude argument has little to do with Paladin vs. anyone else and more to do with the build. Some paladins will get stunned quite easily, some will not, just like with any class.

 

You also mention engagement won't help with certain enemies. Guess what will? Fighter's aggro pull move. Once you use it, the enemy it's used on immediately targets the Fighter, no matter how far the Fighter may be.

 

 

 

He don't need special abilities, as long as the stats are right - he'll own what he is and that's what I'm about in reality!

 

 

Then you've missed the point entirely.

 

Losing a Fighter or a Monk is a big deal because both can assist the team by drawing aggro, killing quickly (monk) or knocking the opponent on it's butt. This benefits the entire team. Paladin's raw defenses benefit absolutely nobody except himself. The Paladin will not accomplish anything with raw defense and no skills to show for it aside from being the last one to die....if that, because as stated, the Fighter easily outpaces Paladin with regen abilities.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Longknife

[Raven Darkholme]

Prone in itself is good the duration is just way too short for a move that is only 2 per encounter.

My second argument was not directed at a standalone fighter but party.

If you have priest you don't need the regen if you have one ore more moon godlikes and no priest you don't need it, the fighter regen is a joke compared to having two ore more moon godlikes or if you aren't cheesy to have say your tank pala moon godlike with LoH supported by a priest.

The fortitude is ofc a pala feature and not a specific build I already mentioned you get that fortitude with only 10 CO and no specific items to raise it, the bonus comes from Faith and conviction and having 1 point in each disposition and also picked Deep Faith.

The aggro pull move comes relatively late it doesn't help you in Caed Nua and the temple for example, my fighter team didn't have it when i did the Dozens quest either though I can't remember if I could have picked it with level 5 and just was too stupid to do it.

 

@peddroelm

I agree fully with Longknife you just can't compare that ability with other damagers, especially monk and cipher are just insane and in my eyes flames is the worst pala abiitiy and only good combined with  shieldbearer buff.

[peddroelm]

 

It's also important to note that 50% additional damage = a crit. So classes like Rogue and Ranger are easily outpacing Paladin just by critting reliably as they do. Paladin cannot hold a candle to any of these three classes. A guarenteed crit is nice, but not when half your team can do it far better than you.

 

 

Try not to confuse additive damage bonuses (ex crit 50% bonus damage that works only off weapon's base damage) with multiplicative damage bonuses (ex Flames of Devotion) that multiplies all damage inflicted ( including crits) ..

[eubatham]

Try not to confuse additive damage bonuses (ex crit 50% bonus damage that works only off weapon's base damage) with multiplicative damage bonuses (ex Flames of Devotion) that multiplies all damage inflicted ( including crits) ..

 

All extra damage is additive. Flames of Devotion deals +50% damage as burn. If you have Burning Lash enchanted on a weapon and picked up the Intense Flames talent, you deal +50% burn +25% burn +25% burn damage (for a total of +100% burn damage). Not 50% * 25% * 25% (+78.1% total). This was done because multiplicative damage modifiers were deemed too difficult to balance.

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, a talent that increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Ruminate]

 

Try not to confuse additive damage bonuses (ex crit 50% bonus damage that works only off weapon's base damage) with multiplicative damage bonuses (ex Flames of Devotion) that multiplies all damage inflicted ( including crits) ..

 

All extra damage is additive. Flames of Devotion deals +50% damage as burn. If you have Burning Lash enchanted on a weapon and picked up the Intense Flames talent, you deal +50% burn +25% burn +25% burn damage (for a total of +100% burn damage). Not 50% * 1.25 * 1.25 (+78% total). This was done because additive damage modifiers were deemed too difficult to balance.

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, which increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

 

 

peddroelm is correct. Critical strike damage bonuses are additive. Elemental damage bonuses are multiplicative, then further reduced by DR.

 

Bleak Walker Flames of Devotion(+75% fire, +25% corrode) with a Superb Arquebus, enchanted with Burning Lash, with Azalin's Helmet, and 23 might can crit for over 200 damage against a Sworn Enemy with low DR. This was a simple test I did, too. There was a lot more buffs I could've had to increase the damage. Depending on how Petrify's damage bonus works, i wouldn't be surprised if they could one shot the Adra Dragon.... on PotD.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ruminate

[eubatham]

Care you post your combat log? It's just that it goes against everything posted here on the forums, including (iirc) said by developers themselves.

 

Also, just to make sure, multiplicative is ((total * modifier) * modifier) * modifier) while additive is (total) + (total *modifier) + (total * modifier) + (total * modifier). You sure you aren't mixing things up?

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Ruminate]

Care you post your combat log? It's just that it goes against everything posted here on the forums, including (iirc) said by developers themselves.

 

Also, just to make sure, multiplicative is ((total * modifier) * modifier) * modifier) while additive is (total) + (total *modifier) + (total * modifier) + (total * modifier). You sure you aren't mixing things up?

 

[peddroelm]

Monk's torment's reach 50% crush damage works the same way ( 50% of the total damage, which make is multiplicative ) ..

[Longknife]

Monk's torment's reach 50% crush damage works the same way ( 50% of the total damage, which make is multiplicative ) ..

 

 

And again, Monk can spam the ever living hell out of his.

[SilchasRuin]

 

Try not to confuse additive damage bonuses (ex crit 50% bonus damage that works only off weapon's base damage) with multiplicative damage bonuses (ex Flames of Devotion) that multiplies all damage inflicted ( including crits) ..

 

All extra damage is additive. Flames of Devotion deals +50% damage as burn. If you have Burning Lash enchanted on a weapon and picked up the Intense Flames talent, you deal +50% burn +25% burn +25% burn damage (for a total of +100% burn damage). Not 50% * 25% * 25% (+78.1% total). This was done because multiplicative damage modifiers were deemed too difficult to balance.

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, a talent that increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

 

You've done the math wrong, it's actually 1.5*1.25*1.25 for the multiplicative case which would be 2.34, or a 134% damage increase compared to the 100% damage increase given by additive modifiers. It's possible % elemental damage functions as an additive damage modifier to itself and multiplicative with base damage modifiers.

Edited April 15, 2015 by SilchasRuin