Paladins: Why the Suck and how to Un-suck them

[I am Catharsis]

By the way, does the word "Un-suck" actually exist?

[dododad]

Has anyone found a use for Paladins resurrection ability? It has weird -150 endurance penalty after couple of seconds, making it hardly usable on squishy characters for most of the game, and since those are the ones that get knocked out, it makes it hardly usable at all.

 

But, besides that I also consider Paladins the worst class of them all. What I particularly dislike, is their poor weapon specialization selection. I don't think they deserve full Fighters specializations, but just give them one of them.

Edited April 13, 2015 by dododad

[dukefx]

By the way, does the word "Un-suck" actually exist?

Now it does

[illathid]

 

 

Something the OP doesn't take into account regarding the Paladin's tankyness: opportunity cost. Paladin's get Faith and Conviction automatically, and if it's a PC you're pretty much guaranteed to have great defenses, regardless of which other abilities and talents you choose. The fighter, however, has to invest his talents and abilities in to making sure he's a good tank.

 

Because this is hardly an issue. Get Defender Mode, get Wary Defender and GG you're good. Since Fighters are usually brought along specifically for the purpose of tanking, who is going to mind spending these levels on that ability?

 

Likewise, Faith and Conviction is not automatic on NPC Paladins, which is part of the problem.

It matters because it changes how the classes play. I made Eder into a dedicated tank, while my paladin PC is a DPS/Off-tank. While Eder is only a marginally better tank than my paladin, Eder has done about half as much damage as my PC.

[dukefx]

Your PC probably has far better equipment and gets all the goodies like free talents.

[illathid]

Your PC probably has far better equipment and gets all the goodies like free talents.

Not really. Granted, I'm still in act two, but I give the best gear to whoever would use it best. I don't really use the watcher talents, and Eder got the weapon focus ruffian talent for free.

Edited April 13, 2015 by illathid

[Epsilon Rose]

Is it a problem that Paladins can't tank as well as fighters, heal as well as priests, or deal damage like Rogues and Barbarian's?

 

I mean, if I could build a pally to out-dps my rogue, whose only capability is damage-dealing, I think there would be an entirely different balance issue at hand.

 

In my eyes, the value of a paladin is that while you may not tank as well as a fighter, you do it while providing party-wide buffs to damage or survivability, and while also healing a little on demand. Likewise for a DPS pally -- you may not out-damage a Rogue but you'll certainly off-tank more effectively and you'll be buffing the whole party and healing a bit, neither of which the Rogue can do.

 

Ultimately, you don't do one thing very well because the specialized classes (Fighter, Rogue, etc) have the specialist roles. Your role as a paladin is to do a little of everything.

 

Now, one concern here is that taking one or more such hybrids is inferior to making a party purely filled with specialists like 2 Fighters (tanks), 1 Wizard (CC), 1 Cipher (CC/DPS), 1 Rogue (DPS), 1 Priest (Buffs/Heals). How big is the gap, though? Balance is an ideal and I don't expect perfect balance; so long as things are reasonably close (for some subjective value of reasonable), I'd be satisfied.

But can they even fill that multi-role position? Will a buff/tank paladin beat a buff/tank chanter built for the same purpose? What niche can it fill that another class can't fill better?

 

What do you mean by not automatic? 0_o

NPC paladins don't ge the bonuses for having a disposition.

[mazeltov]

Have NPC Paladins' Faith and Conviction increase automatically across levels, like Monk unarmed bonuses. Maybe an extra point at 3-6-9-12, so that the ability would steadily increase in power, but not become as good as a faithfully roleplayed PC's F&C would become.

 

With respect to FoD, it's mostly okay the way it is. The ability is not meant to turn Paladins into DPS powerhouses, but instead feels closer in flavor to Smite Evil from D&D. That is, an ability which can be used a handful of times and only shines against certain enemy types. In this game, FoD shines  against critters with low Burn resist, of which there are many, including the nasty Shadow/Shade family. Sure any mook with 2 Lore using Fan of Flames scrolls kills those 100 times better, but that's a problem with other game systems, not FoD. One nice, subtle buff would be to give the current F&C Deflection bonus as an Accuracy bonus to FoD (or make that an extra perk of Intense Flames), to help those two precious swings per encounter hit their mark.

[eubatham]

I'd still heavily contest that 2/encounter FoD's at level 12 is more than adequate. D&D Paladins get more smites as they level up (or via traits) for a reason, i.e. it allows the ability to scale along with the character.

Edited April 13, 2015 by eubatham

[mazeltov]

I'd still heavily contest that 2/encounter FoD's at level 12 is more than adequate. D&D Paladins get more smites as they level up (or via traits) for a reason, i.e. it allows the ability to scale along with the character.

 

Sure, I've supported elsewhere a +1/e FoD talent analogous to the one Fighter gets for Knockdown. If players want to burn (no pun intended) even more talents to squeeze extra juice out of an ability that seems intentionally designed to be sort of lackluster and rather situational (to get its fullest effect), then by all means.

 

If my suggestion to add F&C Deflection bonus as Accuracy for FoD was accepted, then the ability would scale with story progression as well.

[Epsilon Rose]

 

Have NPC Paladins' Faith and Conviction increase automatically across levels, like Monk unarmed bonuses. Maybe an extra point at 3-6-9-12, so that the ability would steadily increase in power, but not become as good as a faithfully roleplayed PC's F&C would become.

 

With respect to FoD, it's mostly okay the way it is. The ability is not meant to turn Paladins into DPS powerhouses, but instead feels closer in flavor to Smite Evil from D&D. That is, an ability which can be used a handful of times and only shines against certain enemy types. In this game, FoD shines  against critters with low Burn resist, of which there are many, including the nasty Shadow/Shade family. Sure any mook with 2 Lore using Fan of Flames scrolls kills those 100 times better, but that's a problem with other game systems, not FoD. One nice, subtle buff would be to give the current F&C Deflection bonus as an Accuracy bonus to FoD (or make that an extra perk of Intense Flames), to help those two precious swings per encounter hit their mark.

 

 

 

I'd still heavily contest that 2/encounter FoD's at level 12 is more than adequate. D&D Paladins get more smites as they level up (or via traits) for a reason, i.e. it allows the ability to scale along with the character.

I'd also argue that D&D paladins, like most other classes in D&D, were very poorly designed and shouldn't be imitated. Having a classes main ability to interact with combat be so severely limited is silly. Particularly if they have basically nothing else to do once it's gone.

[ErlKing]

Paladins in PoE are "martial zealots, devoted to a god, a ruler, or even a way of life."

In game they positioned as single target combatants and supporters. 

 

Currently they high defenses tankable characters with boring damage powers and few interesting single buffs that duplicate few priests AoE spells.

 

Problems I see in game mechanics:

1) Effects on kill are unreliable and frustrating.

2) FoD mostly annoying to use, because its plain +damage without any additional tactical meaning.

3) Lay on Hands are really weak as heal.

 

How I would like to see Paladins:

1) Make FoD modal (activates in combat) and instead of [100% original +50% burn damage] it would be [20% original + 80% burn] or just [80%-90% fire damage].

Bleak Walkers can get talent that makes it corrode damage instead of burn.

Darcozzi Paladini can get talent that give +2 move speed and "weak fire shield" effect while FoD active.

Kind Wayfarers can get talent that regenerate endurance to others while FoD active or small heal per hit.

Shieldbearers can get talent that give +5 deflect to others while FoD active.

Goldpact can get talent that give +10 fort/refl/will to others while FoD active.

 

2) Change "on kill" talents also trigger "on crit" with some necessary tweaks:

Inspiring Triumph +5 defenses on crit

 

+20 mental status effects (charm, domination, confuse, frighten) defense aoe buff on crit for Goldpact

AoE frighten on crit for Bleak Walkers

+2 DR aoe buff on crit for Kind Wayfarers.

 

3) Make Lay on Hands to transfer 10% of Paladin current endurance to target at rate 1 to 3. Greater Lay for 1 to 5 ratio.

 

4) Give all auras as ability pick, so Paladin get some flexibility in combat instead of sticking with one aura for whole game (only one active anyway).

 

5) Mark enemy 1 per encounter instead 3 per rest.

 

6) Liberating Exhortation should either suspend charm/dominate/confuse or give 50+ resist versus them.

 

That way paladins will get:

- unique way to change damage type, more utility without directly buffing their damage, no more tedious FoD on first 2 attacks for dps burst.

- unique scaling heal at cost of their own endurance

- no more awkward steal kills management

- more flexible and fun to use support/buff abilities

 

Still not better tanks, still not better dps, but more utility, real ghosts bane (fire damage), better scale and easier to use.

 

Overall I think paladins should be somewhat analogy to priests as ciphers to wizards.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ErlKing

[dukefx]

 

Your PC probably has far better equipment and gets all the goodies like free talents.

Not really. Granted, I'm still in act two, but I give the best gear to whoever would use it best. I don't really use the watcher talents, and Eder got the weapon focus ruffian talent for free.

 

The talents are rewards from factions, the watcher abilities have 0 impact.

 

If I compare statistics on Edér and Pallegina:

Total damage done:

Edér: 37372.6 with a sabre and shield

Pallegina: 25504.6 with a greatsword

Weapon focus and style talent on both. They are both well equipped. Edér has been in the party only 1 day longer. This is on my ranger playthrough where I kept her just for that stupid +6 accuracy and +5% hit to crit conversion. Not worth it all. The next time I recruit her I'll point her to a nice and cozy bench in the stronghold.

[illathid]

 

 

 

Your PC probably has far better equipment and gets all the goodies like free talents.

Not really. Granted, I'm still in act two, but I give the best gear to whoever would use it best. I don't really use the watcher talents, and Eder got the weapon focus ruffian talent for free.

The talents are rewards from factions, the watcher abilities have 0 impact.

 

If I compare statistics on Edér and Pallegina:

Total damage done:

Edér: 37372.6 with a sabre and shield

Pallegina: 25504.6 with a greatsword

Weapon focus and style talent on both. They are both well equipped. Edér has been in the party only 1 day longer. This is on my ranger playthrough where I kept her just for that stupid +6 accuracy and +5% hit to crit conversion. Not worth it all. The next time I recruit her I'll point her to a nice and cozy bench in the stronghold.

Ah, I didn't know factions gave reward talents. I haven't gotten that far yet. I've been doing side quests and just started level 9 of Od Nua.

[Ruminate]

3) Make Lay on Hands to transfer 10% of Paladin current endurance to target at rate 1 to 3. Greater Lay for 1 to 5 ratio.

 

You would need ~233 max endurance to match the healing output of the current Lay on Hands at 16 might and 16 intellect. What you propose is a straight up nerf.