Brigandine and Plate Armor Discrepancy

[player1]

If enemies are dominantly slashers, that leather armor is actually DR9. Not bad for -30% recovery. Beats anything exempt chainmail/place, which are extra -15%/-20% to get DR14/15.

 

If enemies are crush/pierce, Padded can be better option, since it is DR 5 against them, over DR 6 for leather, for -10% less recovery.

Edited April 19, 2015 by player1

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

 

I can't really say I agree with the notion that only no armor or heavy armor are viable choices.  I used chain mail on my two hander fighter and he was survivable enough in the front ranks while also leading my party in damage done by a fair margin.  If I had put him in plate he would've done considerably less DPS and for what?  A few extra points of DR when he didn't really need it?  Also if you don't put your melee rogue in some kind of armor he/she will go down faster than you can say unarmored rogue.  Generally I do think the speed penalties on lighter armor should be lower relative to plate though.

 

You say that he was in Chain Mail, and survived fine, and that Plate Armour would've reduced his DPS. Fair enough. And then you say that that reduction would be for nothing, just for a few extra points of DR that he doesn't really need.

 

The issue with the No Armour/Full Armour dichotomy of the system is exactly that. If you did fine with Chain Mail, you would probably have done fine with Clothing, and the trade-off is not worth it. The difference between Chain Mail and Full Plate is not worth it. And the difference between Cloth and Chain Mail is not worth it.

 

 

Say what?  If my two hand fighter did well with DR in the teens he would've done fine with no DR?  That has literally no logical basis.  He did fine as in he was able to take a beating, get his endurance fairly low and then recover himself or get some healing.  With no armor he would've been dropped over and over again.  The point is that I found the balance between DPS and DR that felt right.  Your notion that cloth would've worked on him because chain mail worked on him makes absolutely no sense.

 

 

Then it essentially comes down to you failing at tanking; no-one but your tank should be consistently subjected to a meaningful amount of damage, and dead enemies do no damage, which is why DPS is always prioritized heavily over long-term survivability. Enemies do full damage whether they're at 90% or 5% Endurance. Put a good bullet between their eyes and it's over forever, and the best way to do that is to unload on them.

 

 

What magical means do you use to make entire encounters focus their damage on one character?  Because I'm certainly not familiar with any mechanics that support that.

 

https://youtu.be/s_P9PU5FcMQ?t=11s

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Since using the IE games as reference and all that spiritual successor stuff why in PoE is there even a tank vs dps option for front line characters?

 

In BG2 and IWD basically any warrior (fighters, rangers, paladins) or divine caster (clerics and druids) could deal high dps and tank as long as you had enough equipment to go around. And every NPC who had a big weakness in Attributes there was always at least 1 unique piece of equipment to counter act that. Minsc/Anomen DEX. or Jaheira STR.

 

Also curious does DPS even matter in PoE? Same number of enemies so end game no matter who or what you have in your party you have to deal the same exact total damage. Only thing that would be different is encounter time.

 

You could probably have 6 fighters with crazy high defenses just auto attacking everyone. Never getting hit and doing damage. Battles would just take longer. But you probably wouldn't be in any danger ever. 

[player1]

Without changing all the other armors (though I'd prefer if the entire armor system got a 2nd look), another possible solution would be to simply make brigandine an alternative to plate armor.

 

Currently

 

Full Plate

12 DR

15 Pierce 

15 Slash

6 Shock

 

Brigandine

10 DR

13 Crush

8 Corrode

 

Alternatively

 

Full Plate

12 DR

15 Pierce 

15 Slash

6 Shock

 

Brigandine

12 DR

15 Crush

15 Freeze

6 Corrode

 

Some might argue that Full Plate should be better causes it's harder to find, but frankly, it isn't. At level 4 (2 hours at most into the game I guess?) you can have a full party equipped with Full Plate without much issue or cost.

 

I would prefer just nerfing Plate. -2DR and that's it.

 

All armors exempt plate gradually increase effectiveness and recovery penalty.

Only plate armor is different in that regard.

 

And truth to be told, when comparing regular plate mail and fine brigandine, as currently in the game, they really look balanced.

 

EDIT:

Alternatively, keep DR as is, and up recovery penalty to 60% for plate.

Edited May 31, 2015 by player1

[Crucis]

This is kinda an old thread, but since it's been resurrected, what the heck.

 

I wish that Brigandine's recovery was reduced by 5% and all armors less than Brigandine were also reduced by 5% as well, so that there was a good clean progression.  Because right now, I almost never put brigandine on any character once I get past Act 1, I suppose.  After all, why bother with regular brigandine when you have looted some plate armor? 

 

 

 

 

There is little incentive to use anything between basic clothing and full plate armour.

 

 

I can't agree with this at all. 

 

I played an offensive fighter who had max STR and very high (though not fully max) DEX, as well as highish PER and RES as my past PC.  And she was nasty has all get out when I switched her into leather armor.  The reduced recovery time made a big difference in her attack rate, which made her a considerably more dangerous damage dealer with her dualed sabers (using the dual wielding style for more speed).  I suppose that you could argue that she'd have had even higher attack speed with only clothes and that'd be true.  But she'd have no DR at all either.  And as a front liner, rather than a back row archer or gunner, I think that she needed at least some DR to take the edge of the occasional hits that got past her DEFL. 

 

I actually think that it's entirely possible to play front line fighters in less than max armor.  Oh, I'll agree that a defensively oriented, full on, hold the line fighter is probably best in plate, since the requirements of his role seem to require max defense in pretty much every way possible.

 

I won't say that you can't create and play a successful offensive, plate wearing fighter.  I'm sure that one can.  But it seems to me that such a character is going to be a bit on the slow side, attack speed wise.  And if one is looking for a more aggressive, faster attack speed offensive fighter, I'd suggest one who wears somewhat lighter armor, has a good DEX, and as high a DEFL as you can manage, since the less you get hit, the less you depend on your fighter's armor's DR to keep your fighter alive.

 

Anyways, that's all.

[thefairman]

Coat of Ill Payment is reason enough to use Brigandine now that Sanguine Plate doesn't have Retaliation.

[Nexus0]

Honestly, I just think the brigandine is ugly as hell.

[the streaker]

As someone pointed out a long while back:

 

Linear DR increase yields exponentially increasing survivability. If you're getting hit for 14 damage per hit, plate lets you survive twice as many attacks as brigandine, and four times as many as leather. Since the point of armor is to increase how long you can survive being attacked, you can see why this means that DR is exponentially better.

 

On top of that, plate doesn't even follow the linear DR trend of all the other armors. It's straight up +2DR over brigandine for no increase in recovery penalty.

 

So tl;dr plate is too much better than other armor to justify not using it. Clothes or plate, that's what my party is usually wearing. Instead of making a "balanced" build that wears leather for much less survivability than plate and 30% increased recovery time, I think you're better off with pike and plain clothes behind the tank.

[Crucis]

As someone pointed out a long while back:

 

Linear DR increase yields exponentially increasing survivability. If you're getting hit for 14 damage per hit, plate lets you survive twice as many attacks as brigandine, and four times as many as leather. Since the point of armor is to increase how long you can survive being attacked, you can see why this means that DR is exponentially better.

 

On top of that, plate doesn't even follow the linear DR trend of all the other armors. It's straight up +2DR over brigandine for no increase in recovery penalty.

 

So tl;dr plate is too much better than other armor to justify not using it. Clothes or plate, that's what my party is usually wearing. Instead of making a "balanced" build that wears leather for much less survivability than plate and 30% increased recovery time, I think you're better off with pike and plain clothes behind the tank.

 

Except that the leather wearing, offensive fighter in question, wasn't hiding behind the plate wearing tanks.  She was on the front line right next to the plate wearing tank (Eder) and was doing almost double the amount of damage he was doing because she was attacking twice as often as he was, and was avoiding getting hit particularly often as well.

 

As for clothes, I can safely guarantee that no character I'll ever play will wear mere "clothes" into combat, unless it's some sort of concept build where the character eschews the wearing of armor for some reason, like that fighter kit in BG2.

 

 

[player1]

I usually do have rear combatants in cloth only, but only in early game (shadows* are exceptions).

 

When fine armor starts appearing, those rear combatants switch to padded. 6DR global, and 8DR pierce and crush, is really great for just 20% recovery penalty. They also get fine leather for backup, if there are enemies with extremly lot of slashing attacks. 12DR slash for 30% is great deal.

 

While those armors do reduce DPS, they decrease risk in just right amount for when things get serious.

 

*As for shadows, it's hide or scale armor for them.

Edited June 1, 2015 by player1

[the streaker]

I usually do have rear combatants in cloth only, but only in early game (shadows* are exceptions).

 

When fine armor starts appearing, those rear combatants switch to padded. 6DR global, and 8DR pierce and crush, is really great for just 20% recovery penalty. They also get fine leather for backup, if there are enemies with extremly lot of slashing attacks. 12DR slash for 30% is great deal.

 

While those armors do reduce DPS, they decrease risk in just right amount for when things get serious.

 

*as for shadows, its hide armor, or alternatively scale for rear combatants.

It's still 4DR benefit for 20% speed cost, because you can enchant clothing to superb/proofed. How often has that been the deciding factor in whether one of your backrow characters lives or dies, and is that worth handicapping ALL of your backrow characters all the time by 20%? I don't think so. There are strategies for dealing with shadows that are both better than tanking them with wizards, and allow you to keep your backrow firing at full speed.

Not saying 20% recovery penalty will make or break the game either, but I think it's wasteful.

[player1]

On the other hand, most of the time you do not need to enchant armors, and can keep those ingredients for something else more useful, then putting them on bare clothes. While enchanting armor to fine has some merit, it is more effective to just find/buy exceptional and superb armors.

 

Plus, it's not just 4DR, its 4DR and extra 2DR for pierce and crush (if fine padded armor used). And the more game progresses the less reliably you can keep rear companions from harm (area spells, ranged attacks, stray melee enemies). And that DR becomes effectively 8DR/12DR in case of grazes.

 

20% less DPS will not make or break the fight, but lack of extra protection can.

 

If fight is easy, +20% DPS just means more quicker fight.

If fight is hard, due to positioning, enemy power and mass, extra DR is definitivelty more worth, since rear combatants will get hit, as a fact. It is just matter of not wasting too much recovery on getting most effective DR for least DPS penalty.

 

Also it is suprisingly effective to "tank" shadows with wizards. 9DR from scale greatly reduces offensive power of shadows and add to that small shield and any wizard will surivive close encounter with shadows.

Edited June 1, 2015 by player1