Gun jams/backfires and weapon breaks

[sim-h]

Doubtless some people will cry 'micromanagement' but I would love to see a more realistic and immersive system of wear and tear on weaponry.

At the moment as far as I can tell (I've only played 70 hours and not yet into Act III) weapons are indestructible and guns always work.

It would be great if the tradeoff for using a gun not a bow was that occasionally the gun would jam (useless for that combat) or backfire (hahaha). Weapons should also break. A broken weapon should still be usable but with -10 or more accuracy and lower damage.

 

Weapons breaking would also open up bashing down doors and containers. Divinity:OS allows that, which was refreshing, and it's a pity PoE didn't go that route.

 

These systems (and encumbrance) are holding back the immersion factor for me, in an otherwise brilliant game, which is a shame!

[MasterPrudent]

There was actually a weapon degradation and repair system planned at one stage in the game's development. When it was revealed in an update the community response was largely overwhelmingly negative and it was scrapped. Here's the update that described the planned system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/

[Luckmann]

There was actually a weapon degradation and repair system planned at one stage in the game's development. When it was revealed in an update the community response was largely overwhelmingly negative and it was scrapped. Here's the update that described the planned system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/

 

Should've stuck to their guns on that.

[Eurhetemec]

Perfect topic for a mod, I'd suggest.

 

It's not a matter of "crying micromanagement" - this is already a game which involves absolute micromanagement in combat (due to no PC AI). What you're proposing is adding an extra layer of micromanagement, which would be fine in a more simplistic game, like, say Fallout 3, but doesn't really fit in well here. In the end, even most CRPG-fans only have so much tolerance for micro.

 

What you need for "immersion" is clearly way beyond what most people need, and the only way to deal with needs so extreme is mods, which fortunately, should appear.

[sim-h]

So now I can blame the kickstarter dudes for some more stuff, as well as tombstones and goldeNPCs...

 

Yes, yes I know the game wouldn't have been made otherwise. I'll just have to make do with what we've got

[sim-h]

What you need for "immersion" is clearly way beyond what most people need, and the only way to deal with needs so extreme is mods, which fortunately, should appear.

 

I want to lose myself in a believable world. The real world is also fine, tho. Honest.

[Eurhetemec]

 

There was actually a weapon degradation and repair system planned at one stage in the game's development. When it was revealed in an update the community response was largely overwhelmingly negative and it was scrapped. Here's the update that described the planned system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/

 

Should've stuck to their guns on that.

 

 

You need to explain why.

 

Mindlessly "sticking to your guns" is not smart behaviour nor behaviour to be praised or emulated. And you've given no logical/rational reason as to why they should have.

 

The fact is, some systems, even they aren't going to be sure about - so it's worth asking and hearing what people think. The devs have shown throughout the process that they do not mindlessly follow the community, nor mindlessly stick to their guns. That's a good thing. It shows that they are rational, which devs need to be outside of one-person passion projects.

 

Good devs, like Obsidian, are smart, and listen, and when an idea isn't popular, but they know it'll work and end up popular, they go with anyway. Equally, even if an idea is popular, they may have to dump it because it just doesn't work in practice. Here we have an idea that wasn't popular and probably wouldn't have added to the game for most people, because it would simply have lead to:

 

A) Treks back to town to fix stuff

 

or

 

B) Buying boring consumables to fix stuff in the field

[Eurhetemec]

 

What you need for "immersion" is clearly way beyond what most people need, and the only way to deal with needs so extreme is mods, which fortunately, should appear.

 

I want to lose myself in a believable world. The real world is also fine, tho. Honest.

 

 

I get that.

But for you, you need more than others do. Do you understand that? The game isn't made for you, it's made for most people. It can't be any other way. Mods can help with this kind of thing for those who need them.

[sim-h]

You wouldn't usually fix a broken weapon. You'd need a new one. In my game, most of my characters are carrying several spare weapons at all times. I don't see the issue, to be honest. It adds value to loot.

[sim-h]

 

 

What you need for "immersion" is clearly way beyond what most people need, and the only way to deal with needs so extreme is mods, which fortunately, should appear.

 

I want to lose myself in a believable world. The real world is also fine, tho. Honest.

 

 

I get that.

But for you, you need more than others do. Do you understand that? The game isn't made for you, it's made for most people. It can't be any other way. Mods can help with this kind of thing for those who need them.

 

 

Interested to know what you're looking for from a fantasy cRPG then?

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

Mindlessly "sticking to your guns" is not smart behaviour nor behaviour to be praised or emulated. And you've given no logical/rational reason as to why they should have.

 

[...]

 

That's funny, because I'm probably the one on the boards that would be the quickest to say the exact same thing.

 

In this case, it really boils down to me enjoying durability and attrition mechanics, as well as extensive crafting systems. Your argument is just as applicable to the resting mechanic as it is to a durability mechanic, by the way; you either buy "boring consumables" to rest in the field, or you "treks back to town" to rest.

 

At the end of the day, individual mechanics do not make a game, but the gestalt of the mechanics do. Sometimes even two good mechanics can make a third one, that would've been good on it's own, bad.

 

For my sake, they could've introduced starvation mechanics too. Think or die.

 

I get that.

But for you, you need more than others do. Do you understand that? The game isn't made for you, it's made for most people. It can't be any other way. Mods can help with this kind of thing for those who need them.

It's not made "for most people". It's made for what really is (or was) a pretty niche market, precisely because mass appeal is dependant on the lowest common denominators, appealing to the most base instincts possible. Also, this is basically argumentum ad populum.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Luckmann

[gkathellar]

It would be great if the tradeoff for using a gun not a bow was that occasionally the gun would jam (useless for that combat) or backfire (hahaha). Weapons should also break. A broken weapon should still be usable but with -10 or more accuracy and lower damage.

 

Yeah, that would be fun, and not at all an RNG irritation that people would reload out of almost without fail.

 

 

Divinity:OS

 

Oooh, that's a good example. Remember how in Divinity:OS you would just carry around a repair hammer and thus make the entire durability system into little other than a minor irritation?

 

Yeah, when it comes to durability systems, you can go the Fire Emblem route, or go home. And the Fire Emblem route would be complete garbage in this type of game.

[Eurhetemec]

 

[...]

 

Mindlessly "sticking to your guns" is not smart behaviour nor behaviour to be praised or emulated. And you've given no logical/rational reason as to why they should have.

 

[...]

 

That's funny, because I'm probably the one on the boards that would be the quickest to say the exact same thing.

 

In this case, it really boils down to me enjoying durability and attrition mechanics, as well as extensive crafting systems. Your argument is just as applicable to the resting mechanic as it is to a durability mechanic, by the way; you either buy "boring consumables" to rest in the field, or you "treks back to town" to rest.

 

At the end of the day, individual mechanics do not make a game, but the gestalt of the mechanics do. Sometimes even two good mechanics can make a third one, that would've been good on it's own, bad.

 

For my sake, they could've introduced starvation mechanics too. Think or die.

 

I get that.

But for you, you need more than others do. Do you understand that? The game isn't made for you, it's made for most people. It can't be any other way. Mods can help with this kind of thing for those who need them.

It's not made "for most people". It's made for what really is (or was) a pretty niche market, precisely because mass appeal is dependant on the lowest common denominators, appealing to the most base instincts possible. Also, this is basically argumentum ad populum.

 

 

"Most people within the market", then. It makes no difference. The systems are unpopular (with this market, and that's a fact!), and you haven't explained what they add.

[sim-h]

 

It would be great if the tradeoff for using a gun not a bow was that occasionally the gun would jam (useless for that combat) or backfire (hahaha). Weapons should also break. A broken weapon should still be usable but with -10 or more accuracy and lower damage.

 

Yeah, that would be fun, and not at all an RNG irritation that people would reload out of almost without fail.

 

 

Divinity:OS

 

Oooh, that's a good example. Remember how in Divinity:OS you would just carry around a repair hammer and thus make the entire durability system into little other than a minor irritation?

 

Yeah, when it comes to durability systems, you can go the Fire Emblem route, or go home. And the Fire Emblem route would be complete garbage in this type of game.

 

 

Yeah that was annoying in D:OS. Repairing sucks. I'm not suggesting that, I'm suggesting weapons break. Armour could I guess get repaired at an armourer, but since there are n thousand suits of armour every screen in PoE I doubt it would be made much use of.

 

Oh and you reload every time you miss your first shot in combat?? Wow.

[Gorbag]

There has to be a reason for things like that to exist, other than them being realistic and therefore arguably cool to have.
Guns jam and stuff breaks irl. People are also clumsy irl, so a mechanic where one of your characters could suddenly drop and destroy some potions or food would also be realistic. People forget stuff, so a mechanic where your fighter has forgotten his sword in the tavern or that place you looted earlier, so you have to go get it, would be realistic as well. It would be pretty close to real life if your character could suddenly catch a fever and you have to stop adventuring and take camp for several days as he/she can't move or walks at 1/10 speed.
Stuff like that reinforces realism and it might be cool to have (in a "look, they have that!" sort of way), but is ultimately useless (not to mention very bothersome once the initial "wow" reaction calms) unless it serves some purpose. 
Durability was supposed to be a money sink before they cut it, but it ultimately boils down to either a ton of backtracking or another resource management system (e.g. you have to buy and carry around 10 (ton) hammers so you don't have to backtrack every time you go out adventuring). The game already has the resting mechanic doing the same thing and at least that has much better reasons to exist from a mechanical point of view.

[gkathellar]

Oh and you reload every time you miss your first shot in combat?? Wow.

 

Wait, what? Where are you getting that from?

 

If weapons break at random, people will often just reload to avoid that random chance coming into play, especially if it's a weapon they like/have invested resources into/want to keep.

 

It makes any such system of random breaks pointless and irritating.

[Wulfram]

Replacing the accuracy penalty with a small misfire chance might not be a bad thing.  Though giving guns too many special rules is a bit of a trap for RPGs, I think.  Everyone accepts abstraction with every other weapon, but introduce guns and suddenly you need to represent every detail.

 

I don't see much point in a durability system.  Gold sinks are silly outside of MMOs.  And it doesn't seem sensible to me that our weapons would be falling apart in the couple of months of the game, particularly since we're probably changing weapons fairly regularly?  And basic maintenance should be assumed as something you do when resting.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Wulfram

[Ink Blot]

 

There was actually a weapon degradation and repair system planned at one stage in the game's development. When it was revealed in an update the community response was largely overwhelmingly negative and it was scrapped. Here's the update that described the planned system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/

 

Should've stuck to their guns on that.

 

I see what you did there...

 

 

I'll toss in my two cents that this is not a mechanic that I'd enjoy. I've dealt with it in several other games I've played and it's either completely trivialized by carrying around the proper tools; or it's a skill which becomes a 'must have' for one or all your characters; or it's just an extra annoyance that adds nothing of value to the game (IMO, of course).

 

D:OS has it, but it just means you need one character with the skill and then just hand off the degraded weapon(s) to that character to repair. It turned out to be nothing more than tedious.

 

Wasteland 2 has weapon jams and that just became an "I'll toss a mod on the gun that negates that completely and avoid using the weapons that don't allow the use of that mod".

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ink Blot

[Dee-Jay]

Random weapon malfunctions have NEVER been fun in any game I've played.

 

And while gear degeneration has its uses it mainly serves to sustain demand in a player driven economy. In a single-player RPG I see no room for such a feature.

[gkathellar]

Replacing the accuracy penalty with a small misfire chance might not be a bad thing.  Though giving guns too many special rules is a bit of a trap for RPGs, I think.  Everyone accepts abstraction with every other weapon, but introduce guns and suddenly you need to represent every detail.

 

If guns get a misfire system, I want a grappling system exclusive to swords with cruciform guards.

[Starthief]

These games never go far enough where it comes to realism.  You should only be able to use armor of the appropriate size, and you should have to unstring bows when traveling, and clean and sharpen swords, and select appropriate campsites, and you should have to deal with blisters and mosquitos, and there should be a realistic pooping system where you have to avoid poison ivy.

 

Eh.  A lot of games have had breakage and repair systems and it's been fun in... pretty much none of them.

[Irrevenant]

You should only be able to use armor of the appropriate size

 

Ahhhh, another thing I liked about Arcanum.

[manageri]

These games never go far enough where it comes to realism.  You should only be able to use armor of the appropriate size, and you should have to unstring bows when traveling, and clean and sharpen swords, and select appropriate campsites, and you should have to deal with blisters and mosquitos, and there should be a realistic pooping system where you have to avoid poison ivy.

 

Eh.  A lot of games have had breakage and repair systems and it's been fun in... pretty much none of them.

 

And let's not forget that when you walk 12 hours between locations in game the loading screen should last 12 real hours. In fact they should have sold us treadmills with the game that you have to hook up to your computer and walk that distance for real before you can continue playing. I just can't feel immersed at all without this, so unrealistic.

[Sleazebag]

There should be a bone degradation system for using bows and crossbows, all for the sake of realism. It wouldn't be fun in the least, but the middle ages weren't either. Also you should be able to contact the plague from hanging around the catacombs too long, and it would be untreatable and you would die, but you would get a special ending reel about the futility of life.

 

Also your party should be forced to eat, poop and piss, and if you eat too much your character would get a stomache that reduces their dexterity and constitution. Also you would cause a hazard aoe around you for corrode damage, due to your flatulence, at timed intervals. 

[Sabin Stargem]

Blegh.  Repairing things has always been tedious in videogames.  Didn't appeal to me in STALKER, was irritating in System Shock 2,  and wasted time in New Vegas.  Leave this nuisance to modders.