Expect level cap to be 20 after expansion(s)

[Infares]

So since Wizards' Grimoires have up to level 10 spell tiers in them, given the current rate of spellcasting progression, I'd assume that the expansion(s) are going to take us to level 20 at least.

Imagine all the builds that suddenly become possible at that cap. :D

[taek]

Wizards, Priests, & Druids with per encounter spells for all spell tiers is going to be insane.

 

 

[Luckmann]

The fact that the spell-ranks go up to 10 is something I believe to be systemic future-proofing, nothing else. I would be very surprised if the two expansions added that many levels. Pillars of Eternity is meant to be a rather low-level adventure.

[gkathellar]

The fact that the spell-ranks go up to 10 is something I believe to be systemic future-proofing, nothing else. I would be very surprised if the two expansions added that many levels. Pillars of Eternity is meant to be a rather low-level adventure.

 

Dunno, it gets pretty cosmic, for all that. If there were level 30 characters running around in the setting, I feel like they'd have dealt with some of these things already.

[Infares]

 

The fact that the spell-ranks go up to 10 is something I believe to be systemic future-proofing, nothing else. I would be very surprised if the two expansions added that many levels. Pillars of Eternity is meant to be a rather low-level adventure.

 

Dunno, it gets pretty cosmic, for all that. If there were level 30 characters running around in the setting, I feel like they'd have dealt with some of these things already.

Spell progression is similar to DND 3.x Wizard/Cleric/Druid. I can't help but think that might be intentional. 

 

20 still isn't that high and it might be virtually impossible to hit that cap depending on how the game is tuned.

 

Besides, the map of Eora is *much larger* than what I see in the PoE core game.

 

I can also imagine Arcanum/NWN style custom modules coming into play at some point, with Storm of Zehir-esque sandbox functionality, to boot. This game is blowing up in popularity atm so I wouldn't even rule out some kind of epic-level system at some point either.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Infares

[MadDemiurg]

I believe there was a mention of caster spells becoming "at will" at very high levels. You just don't achieve these levels here.

So my prediction @ level 19: level 1-2 - at will, level 3-6 - per encounter, level 7-10 - per rest. Looks like casters are only starting to open up their potential in current PoE.

[Infares]

Following the progression, spells become per encounter precisely 8 levels after you first obtain them. Given that, it'd look like:

Level 13: 3rd level spells become per-encounter. Four 6th level spells/rest. Two 7th level spells/rest.
Level 14: Three 7th level spells/rest.
Level 15: 4th level spells become per-encounter. Four 7th level spells/rest. Two 8th level spells/rest.

Level 16: Three 8th level spells/rest.
Level 17: 1st level spells become at-will. 5th level spells become per-encounter. Four 8th level spells/rest. Two 9th level spells/rest.
Level 18: Three 9th level spells/rest.
Level 19: 2nd level spells become at-will. 6th level spells become per-encounter. Four 9th level spells/rest. Two 10th level spells/rest.
Level 20: Three 10th level spells/rest.

The main problem with "at will" casting is any talents spent on increasing your spells per rest/encounter by 1 will become instantly wasted. They could instead add like an extra 2 casts per encounter to the 1st and 2nd level spells at 17 and 19 respectively, that way you're not walking over past talent picks.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Infares

[Luckmann]

Following the progression, spells become per encounter precisely 8 levels after you first obtain them. Given that, it'd look like:

 

Level 13: 3rd level spells become per-encounter. Four 6th level spells/rest. Two 7th level spells/rest.

Level 14: Three 7th level spells/rest.

Level 15: 4th level spells become per-encounter. Four 7th level spells/rest. Two 8th level spells/rest.

Level 16: Three 8th level spells/rest.

Level 17: 1st level spells become at-will. 5th level spells become per-encounter. Four 8th level spells/rest. Two 9th level spells/rest.

Level 18: Three 9th level spells/rest.

Level 19: 2nd level spells become at-will. 6th level spells become per-encounter. Four 9th level spells/rest. Two 10th level spells/rest.

Level 20: Three 10th level spells/rest.

 

The main problem with "at will" casting is any talents spent on increasing your spells per rest/encounter by 1 will become instantly wasted. They could instead add like an extra 2 casts per encounter to the 1st and 2nd level spells at 17 and 19 respectively, that way you're not walking over past talent picks.

I don't follow your logic. Why would the Talents that increase Spells Per Rest/Encounter become wasted?

 

As a side note, I think the whole "entire-spell-levels-suddenly-becomes-per-encounter" is a fundamentally broken mechanic, and will get progressively more insane as levels rise, but that's really beside the point.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Luckmann

[gkathellar]

 I don't follow your logic. Why would the Talents that increase Spells Per Rest/Encounter become wasted?

 

Because if you take them for 1st or 2nd level spells, once they become at-will, they'll no longer serve a purpose.

[taek]

I think at level 19 my Monk's fists will be

 

27-33 damage each

+21 accuracy

 

 

 

 

[myztikrice]

 

 I don't follow your logic. Why would the Talents that increase Spells Per Rest/Encounter become wasted?

 

Because if you take them for 1st or 2nd level spells, once they become at-will, they'll no longer serve a purpose.

 

You do realize once a spell transforms from 3 casts per rest to 3 casts per encounter, you're still dealing with the number 3 which is increased by the talent?

[Infares]

 

 

 I don't follow your logic. Why would the Talents that increase Spells Per Rest/Encounter become wasted?

 

Because if you take them for 1st or 2nd level spells, once they become at-will, they'll no longer serve a purpose.

You do realize once a spell transforms from 3 casts per rest to 3 casts per encounter, you're still dealing with the number 3 which is increased by the talent?

I don't think you get what we mean by "at will". It means infinite casts per encounter. 

[Sabin Stargem]

I hoping that each expansion adds 4 levels apiece, totaling in 20.  Sequel can kick it up 15, with its expansion for another 15.  So 50 levels.  I want my characters to ridiculously powerful, with divine opposition to match.  Oh, and the ability export/import characters for the campaigns.

[Infares]

I hoping that each expansion adds 4 levels apiece, totaling in 20.  Sequel can kick it up 15, with its expansion for another 15.  So 50 levels.  I want my characters to ridiculously powerful, with divine opposition to match.  Oh, and the ability export/import characters for the campaigns.

As in, your party walks into hell and rescues Eothas. :D

[MadDemiurg]

The rules are too D&D like to accommodate 50 levels nicely. Epic D&D levels are too much for a video game to handle properly. We're already talking about resurrections, mass mind control etc. What level 50 could offer? Creating your own planes of existence to gather armies for invasion in other realms? 

Edited April 10, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Infares]

The rules are too D&D like to accommodate 50 levels nicely. Epic D&D levels are too much for a video game to handle properly.

Indeed. 20 for canon content is fine, letting you go to 30 in a Storm of Zehir style sandbox expansion with giant 12 layer dungeons is cool too, but much beyond that and the enemies would be so strong that the mere act of being a challenge to a group would mean they can one-shot KO nontanks at random.

[Luckmann]

 

I don't follow your logic. Why would the Talents that increase Spells Per Rest/Encounter become wasted?

 

Because if you take them for 1st or 2nd level spells, once they become at-will, they'll no longer serve a purpose.

 

 

They're not "at-will", they're Per-Encounter. If you have Bonus 1st Level Spell, your 5 Per-Rest Spells becomes 5 Per-Encounter Spells.

 

I'd judge that much more powerful than having just 1 extra per rest. 1 extra per rest is useless. 1 extra for every encounter, forever? That's amazing to the point of crazy.

 

I hoping that each expansion adds 4 levels apiece, totaling in 20. Sequel can kick it up 15, with its expansion for another 15. So 50 levels. I want my characters to ridiculously powerful, with divine opposition to match. Oh, and the ability export/import characters for the campaigns.

Even with just 12 levels, you become pretty damn crazy. While the game is "low level", the content it provides definitely doesn't feel like a low-level adventure past a certain point... which is actually one of the true failings of the game, imo. You're murdering powerful beasts left and right and punching dragons to death.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Luckmann

[Kandidus]

 

They're not "at-will", they're Per-Encounter. If you have Bonus 1st Level Spell, your 5 Per-Rest Spells becomes 5 Per-Encounter Spells.

 

I'd judge that much more powerful than having just 1 extra per rest. 1 extra per rest is useless. 1 extra for every encounter, forever? That's amazing to the point of crazy.

 

I think he's referring to what happens of low level spell becomes at-will at higher levels - if they do become at will then the extra spell talent does become useless.

[Infares]

 

 

They're not "at-will", they're Per-Encounter. If you have Bonus 1st Level Spell, your 5 Per-Rest Spells becomes 5 Per-Encounter Spells.

 

I'd judge that much more powerful than having just 1 extra per rest. 1 extra per rest is useless. 1 extra for every encounter, forever? That's amazing to the point of crazy.

 

I think he's referring to what happens of low level spell becomes at-will at higher levels - if they do become at will then the extra spell talent does become useless.

Indeed. Check out the early Project Eternity updates. They talk at length about spellcasters having lower level spells go per-encounter mid-level and then at-will high level. We're not making this stuff up.

 

If you'd actually read every post in the thread, you'd be on the same page as the rest of us, Luckmann.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Infares

[PugPug]

Indeed. Check out the early Project Eternity updates. They talk at length about spellcasters having lower level spells go per-encounter mid-level and then at-will high level. We're not making this stuff up.

 

If you'd actually read every post in the thread, you'd be on the same page as the rest of us, Luckmann.

 

 

 

Well, the issue with the spell talent is solvable. It could be given a secondary effect. There could be respecs (controversial, I know).

 

Personally I'm not sure how I feel about class gameplay changing so radically -- even the per encounter change is huge. I would rather a class be designed to be as enjoyable as possible from level 1 to the level cap. All classes should have at-will, per-encounter and per-day abilities at all levels. But that would take a lot of designing and balancing.

 

That said, getting per-encounter and at-will at high levels is better than not getting it at all. I know the per-day thing is why I am playing a Cypher and not another caster. I see it as a big problem with the other magic users.