Wizard balance suggestions

[MadDemiurg]

Ok, so there's a lot of debate around whether wizards are any good or not. Personally I think they're still pretty great since they have a good spell list with a fair number of good unique spells and the ability to nova in important fights puts them in the top tier with other casters. The one problem I have with them however is that there's a lot more hassle with them for no obvious reason:

 

• They have lower base stats than druids/priests (other two caster classes with the same resource system I'll use as a baseline)
• They don't get all the spells immediately, and need to spend money and loot grimoires to get more. This is weird for a supposedly most flexible spellcaster
• Even when they learn all the spells, they can't access all of them in combat without switching grimoires that inflicts downtime

...and there's no obvious reason why it should be so. In terms of lower base survivability, yes they get defensive spells that help to alleviate that, but they eat into their per rest/per encounter limits. In terms of flexibility their spell list isn't more flexible than druid or priest:

• Priests have - party buffs, debuffs, some aoe, some single target spells, heals, cc
• Druids have -  heals, some party buffs, defuffs, aoe, cc, some single target spells, summons
• Wizards have - aoe, cc, debuffs, single target spells, self buffs, summons (or more exactly a summon, although it's quite good)

This doesn't look more flexible at all. Wizard spell list is still great, but not inherently superior to druid or priest.

 

I think wizards should be somehow rewarded for going through all this hassle compared to other casters. Possible options:

• Give wizards +1 spell usage per level (so start at 3/rest and go up to 5). This will make self buffs more useful since it will add more slots to cast them and will make up for stat difference
• Give wizards increased accuracy with spells - this will make them better casters and again will make up for extra squishiness
• Let wizards pick 1 spell per level from other spell lists - druid and priest. This will make up for the hassle with grimoires and make wizard the more flexible class indeed. Might be too OP though, potential spell combos need to be analyzed.

I'm not suggesting all 3, that would be super OP. 1 of the 3 options will do in my opinion. Imo 1st option is the easiest and the safest.

 

So what do you think?

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Parsong]

I would like these 2 minor buffs, they would go a long way:

 

1. Encounter spells start at level 5 (T1), then 9 (T2), then 13 (T3).  This is a far smoother progression.

 

2. Wizard Self Buff spells should end when the DURATION ENDS. Not when COMBAT ENDS.  If I summon a 70 second duration wand, it should last 70 seconds.  

Edited April 8, 2015 by Parsong

[MadDemiurg]

I would like these 2 minor buffs, they would go a long way:

 

1. Encounter spells start at level 5 (T1), then 9 (T2), then 13 (T3).  This is a far smoother progression.

 

2. Wizard Self Buff spells should end when the DURATION ENDS. Not when COMBAT ENDS.  If I summon a 70 second duration wand, it should last 70 seconds.  

These are good suggestions, however I think both can be applied to all casters (would be weird if not) and it won't change the disparity between them.

 

I also think that the if buffs that can last more than 1 encounter are introduced they should have their duration changed to x encounters rather than x seconds so that you don't have to run across the map like crazy trying to collect as many mobs as possible. Or maybe have their duration suspended in between combats.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[mazeltov]

Buffs? They (or more specifically, their overpowered hard CC spells) should be nerfed along the lines Odd Hermit suggested in his thread. Along with all the other casters. Cut the durations, cut the accuracy (which incidentally cuts the durations even further).

 

And I don't think Wizards should turn into Ciphers, that get to use their whole repertoire every encounter, instead Cipher should be pulled into line. Bonus spell talents, bonus spell rings... Vancian casters need to run out of gas eventually.

 

 

2. Buff spells end when the DURATION ENDS. Not when COMBAT ENDS.  If I summon a 70 second duration weapon, it should last 70 seconds.  

 

Bzzzt. Ten yard penalty. That sneaks pre-buffing in through the back door.

[Parsong]

Fun SUCKS!

[MadDemiurg]

How casters should be balanced with non caster classes is a separate topic. Vancian style magic is hard to balance in general, because it's either OP or useless usually. I'm all for the OP tbh since fighters and the like with their uninspired per encounter abilities are boring anyway. This is more about balancing wizards with other casters.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MaxDamage]

Wizards have some of the most powerful spells in the game like the petrification, confusion etc. They also have an ability to reach stupid levels of deflection unlike both druid and the priest. Being nearly autonomous.

 

All spell levels have its wizard star spells. perhaps bar the 3rd level? Even at 1 and 2 level you get slicken, fan of flame, and the overpowering blindness at level 2.

 

No increase in acc pls they should work by the game's rules as everyone else does. Dont have a lot of spells to choose from thats why there are grimoires. There might be a bit of hassle with wizards but their disables are usually overshadowing any other because of their power. Spells like blindness lvl2, confusion and petrification. You dont cast anything on top of those from druid/priest because it wont stack i e less powerful. Cipher has some OP CC and perhaps the priest has that repulsing seal which is slicken on steroids but other then that wizards are pretty better in some areas. You get a pretty autonomous CC caster pretty narrowly specialized but extra tough and with powerful status effect spells.

 

Maybe get Cipher in line with others rather.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MaxDamage

[koski]

There are a few things I could think of to help wizards. It is mostly related to Grimoire mechanics, as currently it seems to be a bit redundant.

 

First step would be to: Make the Grimoires be your limit. Ie. a single book holds 4 spells / level and you would have to choose exactly which spells you've prepared in that book. If you've prepared 2 * slicken, then that is how many slickens you can cast with that book without switching to another book. These books are per encounter. So with 3 books, you could have up to 12 spells prepared, with some variation.

 

Then you could either:

 

a) Make them get infinite spells earlier. This would encourage Grimoire switching a bit more as they would want more things to choose from. Maybe 5/7/9/11.

 

b) Increased spell casts instead of inifinite casts earlier. Ie. give a wizard up to 10~12 casts / level, but force them to switch Grimoires mid combat to utilize them all as well as prepare a bit more precisely.

 

I would also love for melee wizard to be viable and it would require the following:

 

1. Arcane Veil to 2/Encounter, its duration is fine otherwise.

 

2. Change the duration of wizard spell buffs to encounter. They already have to burn valuable resources to use them.

 

3. Make blast work with (all?) melee weapons

[MadDemiurg]

Wizards have some of the most powerful spells in the game like the petrification, confusion etc. They also have an ability to reach stupid levels of deflection unlike both druid and the priest. Being nearly autonomous.

 

All spell levels have its wizard star spells. perhaps bar the 3rd level? Even at 1 and 2 level you get slicken, fan of flame, and the overpowering blindness at level 2.

 

No increase in acc pls they should work by the game's rules as everyone else does. Dont have a lot of spells to choose from thats why there are grimoires. There might be a bit of hassle with wizards but their disables are usually overshadowing any other because of their power. Spells like blindness lvl2, confusion and petrification. You dont cast anything on top of those from druid/priest because it wont stack i e less powerful. Cipher has some OP CC and perhaps the priest has that repulsing seal which is slicken on steroids but other then that wizards are pretty better in some areas. You get a pretty autonomous CC caster pretty narrowly specialized but extra tough and with powerful status effect spells.

 

Maybe get Cipher in line with others rather.

Thing is, druids and priests aren't much worse in CC. For instance, druids have L1 blind that does solid damage with very long duration, wave that prones enemies for 15 sec, stunlocking lighting storms and even pertification on level 5 (one level earlier that wiz, although it is much shorter). So I don't see how wizard spell list is superior to druids. Both have very good spells. So imo wizards should be somehow compensated for the hassle they go through. As for accuracy - ciphers actually have better spell accuracy already, since they have higher base accuracy. What I'm suggesting for wizards is adding some small static accuracy bonus for spells only, rather than just base accuracy as one of the options. Imo this is in line with game mechanics.

 

Cipher is not that OP tbh, his spells are weaker overall than dedicated casters and he can't nova as much. It's just that he can spam them in all encounters and doubles as a good physical damage dealer. Wizards and druids still have bigger impact on hard fights in my experience.

 

 

There are a few things I could think of to help wizards. It is mostly related to Grimoire mechanics, as currently it seems to be a bit redundant.

 

First step would be to: Make the Grimoires be your limit. Ie. a single book holds 4 spells / level and you would have to choose exactly which spells you've prepared in that book. If you've prepared 2 * slicken, then that is how many slickens you can cast with that book without switching to another book. These books are per encounter. So with 3 books, you could have up to 12 spells prepared, with some variation.

 

Then you could either:

 

a) Make them get infinite spells earlier. This would encourage Grimoire switching a bit more as they would want more things to choose from. Maybe 5/7/9/11.

 

b) Increased spell casts instead of inifinite casts earlier. Ie. give a wizard up to 10~12 casts / level, but force them to switch Grimoires mid combat to utilize them all as well as prepare a bit more precisely.

 

I would also love for melee wizard to be viable and it would require the following:

 

1. Arcane Veil to 2/Encounter, its duration is fine otherwise.

 

2. Change the duration of wizard spell buffs to encounter. They already have to burn valuable resources to use them.

 

3. Make blast work with (all?) melee weapons

 

Tbh making each book hold up to 4 per encounter spells with the ability to have up to 6 additional books in your quick slots would be too much. You can make them at will at that point. Per encounter spells earlier seems like a popular suggestion.

 

Making arcane veil per encounter would be nice, but I think it would have to be 1./encounter then. Otherwise wizard would get ridiculously tanky.

 

I'd rather have separate talents for a melee wizard rather than blast.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MaxDamage]

Actually, the wizards have lower base acc. Should be hurting their spell acc compred to the others.

 

Yeah maybe all casters should have the same base spell accuracy?

 

But then, it is homogenization. Which is kinda boring.

 

As for CC power, wizards win clearly before everyone reaches spell level ~4. then maybe druids get a bit better in some areas but still worse in the same areas as before. At level 6 wizards are back no1. But i think confusion is at level 4. CC doesnt get much better then that already. The 10+ second prone spells are a bit imba imo. This includes the druid's wave and the priest's level 2 seal. Also the Cipher's OP power which hopefully gets brought in line.

 

10+ sec prone spells should get nerfed thats about it.

 

Level 1-2 druid and priest CC are pretty insignificant compared to the wizard's(the seal is an offender the the game balance imo). level 3 im not sure. level 4 - confusion baby xD

 

THen the wizards are pretty broken in the deflection stacking department as ive explained. 100% set up to ignore engagements etc.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MaxDamage

[MadDemiurg]

Actually, the wizards have lower base acc. Should be hurting their spell acc compred to the others.

 

Yeah maybe all casters should have the same base spell accuracy?

 

But then, it is homogenization. Which is kinda boring.

 

As for CC power, wizards win clearly before everyone reaches spell level ~4. then maybe druids get a bit better in some areas but still worse in the same areas as before. At level 6 wizards are back no1. But i think confusion is at level 4. CC doesnt get much better then that already. The 10+ second prone spells are a bit imba imo. This includes the druid's wave and the priest's level 2 seal. Also the Cipher's OP power which hopefully gets brought in line.

 

10+ sec prone spells should get nerfed thats about it.

 

Level 1-2 druid and priest CC are pretty insignificant compared to the wizard's(the seal is an offender the the game balance imo). level 3 im not sure. level 4 - confusion baby xD

 

THen the wizards are pretty broken in the deflection stacking department as ive explained. 100% set up to ignore engagements etc.

I think spell and weapon accuracy should have different base. Ciphers should have higher weapon accuracy and lower spell accuracy than wizards. Otherwise it's hard to balance. Sunbeam is still a pretty great druid cc, although I agree that wizards have better cc on levels 1-2. I still don't think their spell list is inherently superior to other casters.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MaxDamage]

Yeah the spell acc part is a bit unfair should be fixed prolly.

 

Also. Imo its important to nerf 10+ sec prone spells. You start getting them from priest level 2 on lol... Slicken is ridic enough already.

[pi2repsion]

All spell levels have its wizard star spells. perhaps bar the 3rd level? Even at 1 and 2 level you get slicken, fan of flame, and the overpowering blindness at level 2.

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion is the star spell of the third level, functioning effectively as a multiplicative factor on your wizard's power during its duration due to allowing you to cast a lot more spells in that period of time than he would otherwise be able to (and more than other casters can too), and at higher levels wizards are mostly constrained by the time to cast spells, not by spell slots, so long as you rest before important battles. With its long duration, your wizard will be able to end most fights by non-stop casting before the duration runs out.

 

Not that the other spells of the third level are bad - Fireball is really good, for instance, especially when you cast DAoM and spam three fireballs in the blink of an eye at the enemies as they move in to engage your group.

 

Anyhow, I think wizards are fine as they are. They play very differently from Priests, Druids, and Ciphers, which is a primary consideration, they are good at doing their job regardless of whether you want them as blasters, CCers, debuffers, or some mix, and they have self-buffing spells that are strong but mostly useful for emergencies or when stacked, not for general purposes.

The only thing they are pretty bad at is working as magically assisted melee combatants; Anybody wanting an Battlemage, Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, etc. duking it out in melee assisted by magic will have his work cut out for him despite the few spells supporting such playstyle. That said, I'm damn sure that somebody will manage to play such a wizard and do well, just to show that it can be done. Let's hear it for whomever first does a PoTD solo with a heavily armoured swordwielding wizard!

Edited April 8, 2015 by pi2repsion

[MaxDamage]

 

All spell levels have its wizard star spells. perhaps bar the 3rd level? Even at 1 and 2 level you get slicken, fan of flame, and the overpowering blindness at level 2.

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion is the star spell of the third level, functioning effectively as a multiplicative factor on your wizard's power during its duration due to allowing you to cast a lot more spells in that period of time than he would otherwise be able to (and more than other casters can too), and at higher levels wizards are mostly constrained by the time to cast spells, not by spell slots, so long as you rest before important battles. With its long duration, your wizard will be able to end most fights by non-stop casting before the duration runs out.

 

Not that the other spells of the third level are bad - Fireball is really good, for instance, especially when you cast DAoM and spam three fireballs in the blink of an eye at the enemies as they move in to engage your group.

 

Thank you i ve learned something new. Indeed thats extreme lol. If the wizards have cast hastening spell then i just dont know... they are amazing or smth  and my wizard has ~15 -16 dex already

 

improved alacrity anyone? xD

Edited April 8, 2015 by MaxDamage

[pi2repsion]

improved alacrity anyone? xD

 

Thank you i ve learned something new. Indeed thats extreme lol. If the wizards have cast hastening spell then i just dont know... they are amazing or smth  and my wizard has ~15 -16 dex already

Rest assured that it isn't nearly as absurd as Robe of Vecna + Improved Alacrity, but compared to normal speed casting it is pretty damn good. It is "only" a 1.5 factor. The only real downside is that you need to set the game to pause frequently or reduce speed to slow so as not to waste too many frames since you cannot queue up the spells to cast.

 

To get the most out of it maximize your dexterity and wear either clothes (DR0, -0%) or Berathian Priest Robes (DR2, -5%). You've got more than enough time in important battles to cast a few of the Fast self-buffing spells if you feel like you need more survivability so long as you lead with DAoM. In the very longest battles you may want to reserve another third level slot just in case there are still enemies surviving when the first DAoM runs out, but that is a rare case as the wizard grows in power.

Edited April 8, 2015 by pi2repsion

[MaxDamage]

Yes im perfectly set up to be doing just that. Im pausing split seconds already and i have ~ 16 dex. Thats how much i could get after minimizing might/con and maxing per/res/int.. But now Im starting to understand how OP wizards actually are combined with the overstackability of deflection and their powerful CC. They kinda get special treatment twice: deflection through the roof and cast speed. Also, ability to min con with no downsides.

Edited April 8, 2015 by MaxDamage

[pi2repsion]

Yes im perfectly set up to be doing just that. Im pausing split seconds already and i have ~ 16 dex. Thats how much i could get after minimizing might/con and maxing per/res/int.. But now Im starting to understand how OP wizards actually are combined with the overstackability of deflection and their powerful CC. They kinda get special treatment twice: deflection through the roof and cast speed. Also, ability to min con with no downsides.

Minimizing CON is what Infuse with Vital Essence was invented for.

 

(Well, that and Dangerous Implements for DAoM Blight auto-attack spammers.)

[MaxDamage]

They have to make wizards cheaters in every crpg game... why )))

 

'weapon ineffective' try again xD

Edited April 8, 2015 by MaxDamage

[Blovski]

My experience from gameplay is that Wizards are reasonably strong. They certainly don't feel lackluster compared to priests for me. Their CCs are great (I mean, Confusion is just ridiculous), their debuffs are substantial, they have a ton of solid long-range (certainly feels like they outrange Priests) damage spells with a lot of different damage types and a few very effective buffs (Eldritch Aim, etc.). The Grimoire issue has just never been a problem or really felt limiting for me and I run a buy-everything-on-a-whim party with arbitrary self-imposed looting restrictions.

 

Some of the self-buffs and other spells that I want to like really make no sense in a full party (so, when would a wizard cast Endure Elements? When is Minor Grimoire Imprint EVER going to be useful?). I have issues with a few of the spells being underpowered but I don't really think the Wizard is.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Blovski

[Kai]

Learned a lot of interesting things here, still feels like I got a lot to learn about the combat. I'm just wondering, am I the only one who love the 3rd level spell Expose Vulnerabilities? The AoE effect + long duration combined with lowering the DT and Deflection has made it an extremely useful debuff against most mobs for me in the game so far.

[MadDemiurg]

I don't feel like wizards are lackluster either, mainly because there are many crappy spells and 4 seem enough for each level atm. That might change with balancing. Still, the extra hassle they go through when learning spells and lower stats need to be compensated somehow I think.  It's just that they don't matter that much currently because as I said you can pick most of the useful spells anyway and stats don't matter that much when enemies can't touch you anyway.

[knownastherat]

 

Yes im perfectly set up to be doing just that. Im pausing split seconds already and i have ~ 16 dex. Thats how much i could get after minimizing might/con and maxing per/res/int.. But now Im starting to understand how OP wizards actually are combined with the overstackability of deflection and their powerful CC. They kinda get special treatment twice: deflection through the roof and cast speed. Also, ability to min con with no downsides.

Minimizing CON is what Infuse with Vital Essence was invented for.

 

(Well, that and Dangerous Implements for DAoM Blight auto-attack spammers.)

 

 

I would not go that far. Anyone thinking Mig and/or Con are redundant never got stunlocked to death. +50 Endurance/Health for reasonably long duration depending on Int is certainly nice but it will not, regardless of deflection, pass some For checks on certain effect. Let alone that +50 can mitigate maybe 1 hit relatively early in game.

 

If caster is safe from such attacks  or/and has healer or other means to heal/protection then Con indeed could be lower and Infuse indeed substitutes for the lack of it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by knownastherat

[ewright33]

As I'm still learning this game and currently I think I'm level 5...I am not finding much use for my wizard except for a couple single target off spells.  I do love his fireball, lighting and those spells however I find it more troublesome to get him into position to use them for fear of friendly fire.  Otherwise he just is sitting back there pew pewing.

 

Any advice? I'm sure I'm missing something about how to implement this guy.

[Wompoo]

Not a fan of all classes must be equal in these types of games... you just end up with the usual bland predictable game play plaguing modern games imo. Dual classing would be far more interesting I think... as it would open the class system up to creative build design and experimentation. Additionally I'm currently running a front-line wizard, is she optimal? no, is fun? oh hell yes. The buffs present allow her to get some very impressive defence (along with heavy armour) going and raw power (not a tank or off tank). I trust the old school game designers more then I do players (no offence meant, sorry if that sounds like a slight).

[Blovski]

As I'm still learning this game and currently I think I'm level 5...I am not finding much use for my wizard except for a couple single target off spells.  I do love his fireball, lighting and those spells however I find it more troublesome to get him into position to use them for fear of friendly fire.  Otherwise he just is sitting back there pew pewing.

 

Any advice? I'm sure I'm missing something about how to implement this guy.

There are a lot of really great Wizard spells. Confusion is monstrous when you hit level 7. Slicken and Chill Fog are both rather good early even after the nerfs. There's a reduce DR Foe AOE spell that helps a lot. Eldritch Aim is surprisingly good because it gives you more hits and crits. There's also a 3rd level AOE one that reduces enemy attack speed. One of the big advantages wizards have is that they can deal a lot of different damage types (compared to Priests, Druids might be a little stronger as damage casters).

 

Out of interest, what are people going for at 2nd level? I've been using the combustible wounds one, which is nice but still kind of limited.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Blovski