Let's talk class balance....

[SilchasRuin]

 

Unless you are literally unable to progress in the game at all due to dying the results are the same. Given the chance of that, for most people the difference between dying and backtracking is negligible except that, if anything, backtracking may waste less of your time since if you had forgotten to save in a large area you could lose a fair amount of progress.

 

Your exasperation is irrelevant when you have not proved your point. If anything you have exasperated me because your points almost all boil down to effectively: no you're wrong, I'm right. Without making any progress at explaining why what I'm saying is wrong other than to handwave it away as: that's not the same and you're stupid to think that.

 

You're a poor debater who relies on pointless personal attacks because of your lack of ability to argue effectively and inability to critically consider the role of punishment and reward in the context of a game system. You can't effectively make a point because you're incapable of understanding and making logical arguments and your arguments fail to withstand even the most basic scrutiny. Now was any of that needed? I could just as well have simply made my points without attacking you; we're discussing a game system here, we're not even debating politics, if you can't keep civil in this context what do you do in arguments about things which actually matter?

 

even if your lack of progression is not infinite the results and the impact on the player are not the same. the player treats dying as a hurdle, in fact dying is the basic way to enforce difficulty. backtracking is, again, just tedium, it is not a measure of the game. and to the extent you make the tedium necessary as "punishment" its a bad design.

 

it should also be pointed out that lots of these tedious mechanics have been removed from games over the last 10 years, and that lots of people have pointed out that the rest mechanic in poe is basically just obnoxious tedium.  

 

your arguments are nothing but poor conflations with errant reasoning. you basically say, "dying and backtracking are the same because they both take time." but that is not the only relevant factor and you are being ignorant and obtuse if you think I haven't pointed out numerous other factors.

 

btw its curious that you chose to insult me in the same post you say this, "if you can't keep civil in this context what do you do in arguments about things which actually matter?"  your lack of self awareness is impressive.

 

Did you read what i wrote? The insult was intentional, I was giving an example of why it was unnecessary and that I could just as well do it and it would have the same effect, to be annoying and fail to convey anything useful. I specifically said, "was that needed?", after saying it. In other words I was flipping the shoe to the other foot and asking: does it fit?

 

As to the rest of the argument, I ask that if you wish to continue it to take it to private message, if you would cease with the insults or just agree to disagree as well, both would be great.

[Schyzm]

 

 

Unless you are literally unable to progress in the game at all due to dying the results are the same. Given the chance of that, for most people the difference between dying and backtracking is negligible except that, if anything, backtracking may waste less of your time since if you had forgotten to save in a large area you could lose a fair amount of progress.

 

Your exasperation is irrelevant when you have not proved your point. If anything you have exasperated me because your points almost all boil down to effectively: no you're wrong, I'm right. Without making any progress at explaining why what I'm saying is wrong other than to handwave it away as: that's not the same and you're stupid to think that.

 

You're a poor debater who relies on pointless personal attacks because of your lack of ability to argue effectively and inability to critically consider the role of punishment and reward in the context of a game system. You can't effectively make a point because you're incapable of understanding and making logical arguments and your arguments fail to withstand even the most basic scrutiny. Now was any of that needed? I could just as well have simply made my points without attacking you; we're discussing a game system here, we're not even debating politics, if you can't keep civil in this context what do you do in arguments about things which actually matter?

 

even if your lack of progression is not infinite the results and the impact on the player are not the same. the player treats dying as a hurdle, in fact dying is the basic way to enforce difficulty. backtracking is, again, just tedium, it is not a measure of the game. and to the extent you make the tedium necessary as "punishment" its a bad design.

 

it should also be pointed out that lots of these tedious mechanics have been removed from games over the last 10 years, and that lots of people have pointed out that the rest mechanic in poe is basically just obnoxious tedium.  

 

your arguments are nothing but poor conflations with errant reasoning. you basically say, "dying and backtracking are the same because they both take time." but that is not the only relevant factor and you are being ignorant and obtuse if you think I haven't pointed out numerous other factors.

 

btw its curious that you chose to insult me in the same post you say this, "if you can't keep civil in this context what do you do in arguments about things which actually matter?"  your lack of self awareness is impressive.

 

Did you read what i wrote? The insult was intentional, I was giving an example of why it was unnecessary and that I could just as well do it and it would have the same effect, to be annoying and fail to convey anything useful. I specifically said, "was that needed?", after saying it. In other words I was flipping the shoe to the other foot and asking: does it fit?

 

As to the rest of the argument, I ask that if you wish to continue it to take it to private message, if you would cease with the insults or just agree to disagree as well, both would be great.

 

 

 

yes you insulted me intentionally, that is how I took it, as an intentional insult. all communication is useful on some level, even exasperation and insults. and sure insulting "fits" me I don't expect to never be insulted.

[MoxyWoo]

Somewhat back on topic:

What's the point of a Ranged Rogue, over just using another Wizard?  Maybe I just built my Rogue wrong, but the skills I took were:

 

Blinding Strike

Crippling Strike

Deathblows

Deep Wounds

Dirty Fighting

Withering Strike

Vicious Fighting

Weapon Focus: Adventurer (War Bow)

Penetrating Shot

Marksman

Wood Elf Racial

 

Ended up with 21 Might, 21 Dex, +10% crit damage helm, +10% sneak attack damage boots.  Used a Fine War Bow until Cloudpiercer, then switched to The Rain of Godagh when it became available.

For a while the Rogue was usually 10% - 20% ahead, then jumped up briefly, but near the last fourth of the game dramatically started losing ground.  It's hard to tell how much single target damage she was actually doing compared to the two Wizards and Cipher I was also using, but in the end it came out to:

 

Rogue - Total Damage: 61,804 (701 crits, 770 hits), highest single target damage: 97.1

Bow Wizard - Total Damage: 69, 440 (1,039 crits, 2,247 hits), highest single target damage: 100.0

Wizard - Total Damage: 61, 437 (667 crits, 2,220 hits), highest single target damage: 138.5

Cipher - Total Damage: 64, 644 (638 crits, 2,113 hits), highest single target damage: 94.5 < jumped way up when Mind Lance spam on 3+ targets became common.

This wasn't a matter of neglect either.  I would try to use all cooldowns on the Rogue when possible.  Sometimes the fights would be over though with 1-2 of them remaining.  I would even pull with the Rogue for an opening shot for about 75% of the game.  I haven't taken a bow Rogue through PotD yet, so maybe that will change things?

 

Sounds about right.  The bow rogue I liked for the auto attack alpha and less micro, but they thrive on having faster attacks to keep up since they have so much %dmg modifier.  Hence why I think the reach weapon rogue might be the best due to the reckless assault nowadays and melee weapons tend to swing about 2.5x faster than bow usage.  Keeps em out of harm and lets them use all their talents, and ranged is still an option if they need it.

 

OTOH Wizard has versatility for AoE and Alacrity.  That 50% attack speed alone will make up so many gaps for damage, not to mention their basic arcane assault at the beginning of the game with 2 wizards = most of act 1 mobs dead or nearly so even with Aloth.  When others are dealing with 5 to 12 DR and the blasts or similar are just ignoring that much for basic attacks and their encounter is RAW damage, it starts to rack up.

[Blovski]

Most classes are great after level 5, which also happens to coincide with much of Act 1.  Which I think gives the first part of the game an inflated difficulty if you're not sure what you are facing or similar.

 

For trash encounters, wizard can use arcane assault which is RAW damage and on hard this is pretty handy for a spamming.  I played a main wizard on hard and was amazed at how easy it was just because most of the damage racked up by AoE was so handy, while having more single target or similar was redundant with everyone else.  The only other class that compares is Cipher really for ease of play and aoe resource but the wizard quickly caught up and had more impact for difficult encounters as needed.

 

Due to this, I ranked the classes for Act 1 in the following manner.

 

Tier 1:  These classes can deal with all kinds of threats, not care about resources, and the resources they do have are game changers.

 

Cipher (Use a spell every encounter, even for trash mobs and have a 40% dmg increase is amazing)

Wizard (Arcane assault spam and spells that game change)

Dracozzi Paladini with Fires Talent (they get retaliation ridiculously early and target REFLEX with it so the act 1 shades are easy with them.).  

 

Tier 2:  While not as versatile as Tier 1, they do their job really well and have some cool spamming abilities or similar that can turn the tide in your favor.

 

Monk (Torment's reach with Moon God-like means free healing and wounds to power them.)

Rogue (alpha strike is still handy to take down one mob.  They can enable their own sneak attacks if needed via crippling to take down another or two.)

Druid (spiritshift, despite the accuracy issues is a decent resource and they can game change via spells)  

Priest (lower end of Tier 2, they have support spells that do game change for the group but not as much damage)

 

Tier 3:  They're good at their task, and though don't have game changing mechanics like the Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes, they're 'good' enough.

 

Barbarian (Frenzy is amazing along with Carnage, they just take a little bit to mature and Fire God-like + retaliation isn't available early).

Ranger (They could be Tier 2 if not for the bugs, ranger's grief, and similar issues plaguing them.  The bear tank does provide a great off tank for a single or 2 targets with resilient companion though, so I view them as versatile, just not 'great' until they get all their talents they want as build choices force them behind a rogue until 5+).

Fighter (Limited experience maining this one, from what I saw of Eder they could last forever but didn't have game changing mechanics).

Chanter (Only placed down here due to their slow ramp up, overall, they are effective once the 18+ seconds are up.)

 

Tier 4:  The job they have, they can be okay at with extreme optimization but most classes do it better or easier.  In a bigger meta sense, why take them over the other classes?

Paladin (any other besides Dracozzi)

 

Of course, after level 5 all classes get more powerful, or their game changing skills, or resources via potions and similar are readily available to anyone.  Basically, the game becomes easier for any class.

Good discussion - 

 

My view wrt Act 1. On Hard or lower, Wizards, Rogues and Ciphers rule the roost, because damage output is generally pretty reliable. I never really got along with monks but I'm probably playing them wrong. As you amp up difficulty, Ciphers need to generate more focus and Wizard spells need to be considered more and Rogues can't rely as much on having a 100% chance to sneak attack through all of a tough fight. That said, they all remain excellent.

 

Chanters are probably a top tier class early game, since they provide utility options no other class does (move speed chant, phantom summons) and fall off a little late game as the chants become less relevant and the summons take much longer. Rangers are reasonably strong early on, since they come with the animal companion and their high base accuracy and vicious aim lets them hit things a lot.

 

Don't underestimate the fighter-brick-wall. It may not be all that interesting but by god, it's powerful.

 

Darcozzi Paladins are an excellent solution to specific tough early enemies, especially if you go with a Pale Elf, but otherwise I don't think they're really top tier compared to a defensively built fighter. I do think other Paladins are alright, particularly Kind Wayfarers. Bleak Walker flavour seems interesting but I don't think Frightened is a top tier effect and I don't know how long it lasts. Shieldbearers would be alright if their effects lasted substantially longer.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Somewhat back on topic:

What's the point of a Ranged Rogue, over just using another Wizard?  Maybe I just built my Rogue wrong, but the skills I took were:

 

Blinding Strike

Crippling Strike

Deathblows

Deep Wounds

Dirty Fighting

Withering Strike

Vicious Fighting

Weapon Focus: Adventurer (War Bow)

Penetrating Shot

Marksman

Wood Elf Racial

 

Ended up with 21 Might, 21 Dex, +10% crit damage helm, +10% sneak attack damage boots.  Used a Fine War Bow until Cloudpiercer, then switched to The Rain of Godagh when it became available.

For a while the Rogue was usually 10% - 20% ahead, then jumped up briefly, but near the last fourth of the game dramatically started losing ground.  It's hard to tell how much single target damage she was actually doing compared to the two Wizards and Cipher I was also using, but in the end it came out to:

 

Rogue - Total Damage: 61,804 (701 crits, 770 hits), highest single target damage: 97.1

Bow Wizard - Total Damage: 69, 440 (1,039 crits, 2,247 hits), highest single target damage: 100.0

Wizard - Total Damage: 61, 437 (667 crits, 2,220 hits), highest single target damage: 138.5

Cipher - Total Damage: 64, 644 (638 crits, 2,113 hits), highest single target damage: 94.5 < jumped way up when Mind Lance spam on 3+ targets became common.

This wasn't a matter of neglect either.  I would try to use all cooldowns on the Rogue when possible.  Sometimes the fights would be over though with 1-2 of them remaining.  I would even pull with the Rogue for an opening shot for about 75% of the game.  I haven't taken a bow Rogue through PotD yet, so maybe that will change things?

 

The  cipher and wizard in the party. can blind, flank, and paralyze. Which gets you automatic sneak attack. You want all of them crits to be sneak attacks/deathblows as well. I would probably go soldier.

 

You can use the Arbalest and the Arquebus.  Once they fix the Speed Mod on weapons the 1st Arbalest you see will probably be one of the best ranged weapons in the game. If not you have the Wrecker as well. And the Arquebus are extremely good as well. Especially 2 of the named ones. Or go Crossbow, the Wendgar has 10% crit chance (your chance can get upto 40% if you go orlan) and speed mods once the devs patch it.

 

To take advantage of crits you want to bring out the biggest damage dealer. Since the Game Engine uses Percentages for everything you want a high base damage to start with. So then you can apply lash damage, talent damage, crit damage, sneak attack/death blow damage etc. My Rogue was a sniper just 1 shotting enemies all the time. Just make sure that wizard or cipher are doing some kind of AoE debuff for to activate sneak attack/deathblow.

 

Then you can swap out penetrating shot for gunner. And again once the Elemental Talents are fixed by devs you could take one of them as well to increase damage. There is also an accuracy boosting item you can drop on your Rogue as well. Then anything that improves Rogue's critical chance or critical damage multiplier.

[MoxyWoo]

 

-snip-

Good discussion - 

 

My view wrt Act 1. On Hard or lower, Wizards, Rogues and Ciphers rule the roost, because damage output is generally pretty reliable. I never really got along with monks but I'm probably playing them wrong. As you amp up difficulty, Ciphers need to generate more focus and Wizard spells need to be considered more and Rogues can't rely as much on having a 100% chance to sneak attack through all of a tough fight. That said, they all remain excellent.

 

Chanters are probably a top tier class early game, since they provide utility options no other class does (move speed chant, phantom summons) and fall off a little late game as the chants become less relevant and the summons take much longer. Rangers are reasonably strong early on, since they come with the animal companion and their high base accuracy and vicious aim lets them hit things a lot.

 

Don't underestimate the fighter-brick-wall. It may not be all that interesting but by god, it's powerful.

 

Darcozzi Paladins are an excellent solution to specific tough early enemies, especially if you go with a Pale Elf, but otherwise I don't think they're really top tier compared to a defensively built fighter. I do think other Paladins are alright, particularly Kind Wayfarers. Bleak Walker flavour seems interesting but I don't think Frightened is a top tier effect and I don't know how long it lasts. Shieldbearers would be alright if their effects lasted substantially longer.

 

I just realized I keep spelling Dracozzi (Darcozzi) wrong yet again.

 

I agree with your points.  Just some clarification, monks are moon god-likes for ease of play, same for the Darcozzi paladini.

 

The other paladins are ranked Tier 4 for a reason, they can in a meta sense be fine solo and seem to perform well, but without the much earlier access to retaliation that D-pals get, they're not getting bumped up a tier easily especially when you get triple synergy from a moon monk as a tank choice.  In a bigger sense, those paladin orders are trying to do something close to the other roles they are trying to fulfill but have a) either a tough time doing it via on kill effects.  b) the effects are very limited, c) are limited by the flames of devotion or lay on hands use.  d) all of the above.   I've had my Darcozzi Paladin (Moon) just walk in and face tank like 4 shades and be fine due to their low hp, where other classes I've mained I've struggled with the same room.

 

Chanters are a weird case to me, they're cool if the fight goes south, and stacking them up with a bunch of Come Come Swift at the early game is actually quite funny/viable/powerful BUT I'd say at the act 1 time, 2 wizards with arcane assault just nuking things for RAW damage is hilariously good too and the wizards front load the situation so much in their favor versus the chanters, the latter never gets to the 18+ seconds or need even more multiples to be as good.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[MadDemiurg]

Somewhat back on topic:

What's the point of a Ranged Rogue, over just using another Wizard?  Maybe I just built my Rogue wrong, but the skills I took were:

 

Blinding Strike

Crippling Strike

Deathblows

Deep Wounds

Dirty Fighting

Withering Strike

Vicious Fighting

Weapon Focus: Adventurer (War Bow)

Penetrating Shot

Marksman

Wood Elf Racial

 

Ended up with 21 Might, 21 Dex, +10% crit damage helm, +10% sneak attack damage boots.  Used a Fine War Bow until Cloudpiercer, then switched to The Rain of Godagh when it became available.

For a while the Rogue was usually 10% - 20% ahead, then jumped up briefly, but near the last fourth of the game dramatically started losing ground.  It's hard to tell how much single target damage she was actually doing compared to the two Wizards and Cipher I was also using, but in the end it came out to:

 

Rogue - Total Damage: 61,804 (701 crits, 770 hits), highest single target damage: 97.1

Bow Wizard - Total Damage: 69, 440 (1,039 crits, 2,247 hits), highest single target damage: 100.0

Wizard - Total Damage: 61, 437 (667 crits, 2,220 hits), highest single target damage: 138.5

Cipher - Total Damage: 64, 644 (638 crits, 2,113 hits), highest single target damage: 94.5 < jumped way up when Mind Lance spam on 3+ targets became common.

This wasn't a matter of neglect either.  I would try to use all cooldowns on the Rogue when possible.  Sometimes the fights would be over though with 1-2 of them remaining.  I would even pull with the Rogue for an opening shot for about 75% of the game.  I haven't taken a bow Rogue through PotD yet, so maybe that will change things?

As I said earlier, very little, and you seem to agree now. I would only ever use melee or hybrid rogue, otherwise wizard or cipher are better.

[rheingold]

To be honest I don't really see the point of a ranged rogue. A melee rogue, on the other hand does huge damage, of course they die pretty easily too. If I were going for a ranged damage dealer I'd gone with ranger instead. AC, marked prey, roots and great accuracy.

[Sanctuary]

 

Somewhat back on topic:

What's the point of a Ranged Rogue, over just using another Wizard?  Maybe I just built my Rogue wrong, but the skills I took were:

 

Blinding Strike

Crippling Strike

Deathblows

Deep Wounds

Dirty Fighting

Withering Strike

Vicious Fighting

Weapon Focus: Adventurer (War Bow)

Penetrating Shot

Marksman

Wood Elf Racial

 

Ended up with 21 Might, 21 Dex, +10% crit damage helm, +10% sneak attack damage boots.  Used a Fine War Bow until Cloudpiercer, then switched to The Rain of Godagh when it became available.

For a while the Rogue was usually 10% - 20% ahead, then jumped up briefly, but near the last fourth of the game dramatically started losing ground.  It's hard to tell how much single target damage she was actually doing compared to the two Wizards and Cipher I was also using, but in the end it came out to:

 

Rogue - Total Damage: 61,804 (701 crits, 770 hits), highest single target damage: 97.1

Bow Wizard - Total Damage: 69, 440 (1,039 crits, 2,247 hits), highest single target damage: 100.0

Wizard - Total Damage: 61, 437 (667 crits, 2,220 hits), highest single target damage: 138.5

Cipher - Total Damage: 64, 644 (638 crits, 2,113 hits), highest single target damage: 94.5 < jumped way up when Mind Lance spam on 3+ targets became common.

This wasn't a matter of neglect either.  I would try to use all cooldowns on the Rogue when possible.  Sometimes the fights would be over though with 1-2 of them remaining.  I would even pull with the Rogue for an opening shot for about 75% of the game.  I haven't taken a bow Rogue through PotD yet, so maybe that will change things?

 

The  cipher and wizard in the party. can blind, flank, and paralyze. Which gets you automatic sneak attack. You want all of them crits to be sneak attacks/deathblows as well. I would probably go soldier.

 

You can use the Arbalest and the Arquebus.  Once they fix the Speed Mod on weapons the 1st Arbalest you see will probably be one of the best ranged weapons in the game. If not you have the Wrecker as well. And the Arquebus are extremely good as well. Especially 2 of the named ones. Or go Crossbow, the Wendgar has 10% crit chance (your chance can get upto 40% if you go orlan) and speed mods once the devs patch it.

 

To take advantage of crits you want to bring out the biggest damage dealer. Since the Game Engine uses Percentages for everything you want a high base damage to start with. So then you can apply lash damage, talent damage, crit damage, sneak attack/death blow damage etc. My Rogue was a sniper just 1 shotting enemies all the time. Just make sure that wizard or cipher are doing some kind of AoE debuff for to activate sneak attack/deathblow.

 

Then you can swap out penetrating shot for gunner. And again once the Elemental Talents are fixed by devs you could take one of them as well to increase damage. There is also an accuracy boosting item you can drop on your Rogue as well. Then anything that improves Rogue's critical chance or critical damage multiplier.

 

I don't really understand how the game engine using a percentage for everything favors slower, harder hitting weapons.  Sure, each crit will do more damage, but you're also going to hit (crit) much less often with either the Arbalest or Arquebus and often when you do it would be overkill and completely unecessary other than for an opening shot.  I used to actually do all opening shots with an Arbalest and then switch to the War Bow, but eventually it just felt like too much busywork and not needed at all.

 

Also, when you mention other classes using spells that add debilitations, you're just suggesting limiting their own damage for a utility spell as if it's actually going to help the group damage overall more than simply doing 60 - 80+ damage to 5+ enemies at the start.  It's not.  The Rogue is single target damage and will be single target the entire fight, and they aren't going to make up for the AoE damage the other classes can do on larger fights.  The enemies are usually already blinded from Chill Fog anyway, and the Rogue can add a secondary defuff by themselves for the extra Deathblow damage.  The only time I ever bothered to add long lasting debuffs were on boss fights, and those were rare.

 

FWIW, almost all of the attacks the Rogue landed were at least normal Sneak Attacks for almost the entire game.

 

 

As I said earlier, very little, and you seem to agree now. I would only ever use melee or hybrid rogue, otherwise wizard or cipher are better.

 

 

I was expecting this reply.

Anyway, all I ended up doing was repositioning my Cipher in the group (I use kind of an upside down cross formation with the tank one character space further ahead) so that he was on one of the sides instead of the middle.  It made opening up with multiple Mind Lances much easier in dungeons.  So much so that for many trash packs, I'd just pull with him too.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sanctuary

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Somewhat back on topic:

What's the point of a Ranged Rogue, over just using another Wizard?  Maybe I just built my Rogue wrong, but the skills I took were:

 

Blinding Strike

Crippling Strike

Deathblows

Deep Wounds

Dirty Fighting

Withering Strike

Vicious Fighting

Weapon Focus: Adventurer (War Bow)

Penetrating Shot

Marksman

Wood Elf Racial

 

Ended up with 21 Might, 21 Dex, +10% crit damage helm, +10% sneak attack damage boots.  Used a Fine War Bow until Cloudpiercer, then switched to The Rain of Godagh when it became available.

For a while the Rogue was usually 10% - 20% ahead, then jumped up briefly, but near the last fourth of the game dramatically started losing ground.  It's hard to tell how much single target damage she was actually doing compared to the two Wizards and Cipher I was also using, but in the end it came out to:

 

Rogue - Total Damage: 61,804 (701 crits, 770 hits), highest single target damage: 97.1

Bow Wizard - Total Damage: 69, 440 (1,039 crits, 2,247 hits), highest single target damage: 100.0

Wizard - Total Damage: 61, 437 (667 crits, 2,220 hits), highest single target damage: 138.5

Cipher - Total Damage: 64, 644 (638 crits, 2,113 hits), highest single target damage: 94.5 < jumped way up when Mind Lance spam on 3+ targets became common.

This wasn't a matter of neglect either.  I would try to use all cooldowns on the Rogue when possible.  Sometimes the fights would be over though with 1-2 of them remaining.  I would even pull with the Rogue for an opening shot for about 75% of the game.  I haven't taken a bow Rogue through PotD yet, so maybe that will change things?

 

The  cipher and wizard in the party. can blind, flank, and paralyze. Which gets you automatic sneak attack. You want all of them crits to be sneak attacks/deathblows as well. I would probably go soldier.

 

You can use the Arbalest and the Arquebus.  Once they fix the Speed Mod on weapons the 1st Arbalest you see will probably be one of the best ranged weapons in the game. If not you have the Wrecker as well. And the Arquebus are extremely good as well. Especially 2 of the named ones. Or go Crossbow, the Wendgar has 10% crit chance (your chance can get upto 40% if you go orlan) and speed mods once the devs patch it.

 

To take advantage of crits you want to bring out the biggest damage dealer. Since the Game Engine uses Percentages for everything you want a high base damage to start with. So then you can apply lash damage, talent damage, crit damage, sneak attack/death blow damage etc. My Rogue was a sniper just 1 shotting enemies all the time. Just make sure that wizard or cipher are doing some kind of AoE debuff for to activate sneak attack/deathblow.

 

Then you can swap out penetrating shot for gunner. And again once the Elemental Talents are fixed by devs you could take one of them as well to increase damage. There is also an accuracy boosting item you can drop on your Rogue as well. Then anything that improves Rogue's critical chance or critical damage multiplier.

 

I don't really understand how the game engine using a percentage for everything favors slower, harder hitting weapons.  Sure, each crit will do more damage, but you're also going to hit (crit) much less often with either the Arbalest or Arquebus and often when you do it would be overkill and completely unecessary other than for an opening shot.  I used to actually do all opening shots with an Arbalest and then switch to the War Bow, but eventually it just felt like too much busywork and not needed at all.

 

Also, when you mention other classes using spells that add debilitations, you're just suggesting limiting their own damage for a utility spell as if it's actually going to help the group damage overall more than simply doing 60 - 80+ damage to 5+ enemies at the start.  It's not.  The Rogue is single target damage and will be single target the entire fight, and they aren't going to make up for the AoE damage the other classes can do on larger fights.  The enemies are usually already blinded from Chill Fog anyway, and the Rogue can add a secondary defuff by themselves for the extra Deathblow damage.  The only time I ever bothered to add long lasting debuffs were on boss fights, and those were rare.

 

FWIW, almost all of the attacks the Rogue landed were at least normal Sneak Attacks for almost the entire game.

 

 

As I said earlier, very little, and you seem to agree now. I would only ever use melee or hybrid rogue, otherwise wizard or cipher are better.

 

 

I was expecting this reply.

Anyway, all I ended up doing was repositioning my Cipher in the group (I use kind of an upside down cross formation with the tank one character space further ahead) so that he was on one of the sides instead of the middle.  It made opening up with multiple Mind Lances much easier in dungeons.  So much so that for many trash packs, I'd just pull with him too.

 

I frequently used druid and wizard in the front formation in my first playthrough. Winter winds + Mind lance spam. Intercept with 2nd row if anything gets through. Pretty good cipher tactic is also casting ectopsychic echo on a monk, who runs into enemy backline eating disengagement attacks (moar wounds!) if needed, melting everything in between.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Sanctuary]

Side note: I had absolutely no idea that IE Mod (console command) would allow you to respec companion attribute scores too, not just talents or skills.  Was this always a feature?  Because the main reason I never finished a few of the companion quests is because I just started making all custom characters on consecuitive playthroughs.  I swear too that early on IE mod couldn't do this, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Jimmysdabestcop]

 

 

 

I think the reasons you bring a Rogue are different then the reasons you have a Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Cipher in the party. The Rogue doesn't really have to be managed. The normal course of an encounter will get them their Crits and there Sneak Attacks. To do any type of damage with those other range classes requires you to actively manage abilities and spells.

 

The Rogue can hold their own weight. Is it the best character to bring along in a fully optimized party? Probably not.

[Eos]

As I said earlier, very little, and you seem to agree now. I would only ever use melee or hybrid rogue, otherwise wizard or cipher are better.

 

 

I was expecting this reply.

Anyway, all I ended up doing was repositioning my Cipher in the group (I use kind of an upside down cross formation with the tank one character space further ahead) so that he was on one of the sides instead of the middle.  It made opening up with multiple Mind Lances much easier in dungeons.  So much so that for many trash packs, I'd just pull with him too.

 

 

Your numbers perfectly showed what you want a Rogue for. You have your three casters and your Rogue. All four of them have roughly dealt the same damage over the course of the game. But what is the one big difference? Your casters deal AoE damage. Whenever they cast a spell, they rack up damage by hitting four, five, six enemies at the same time, all of them contributing to the overall dealt damage. All the while your Rogue needs to attack one target at a time. Yet your Rogue managed to deal the same overall damage that all your casters dealt by dealing their damage to multiple enemies at the same time.

 

Oversimplified example: for every 10 damage your casters dealt to five enemies, your Rogue dealt 50 damage to a single enemy.

 

What do you want your Rogues for? To burst down single targets. Enemy casters, bosses, dragons. All the stuff you don't want to stand too long.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Eos

[MadDemiurg]

 

As I said earlier, very little, and you seem to agree now. I would only ever use melee or hybrid rogue, otherwise wizard or cipher are better.

 

 

I was expecting this reply.

Anyway, all I ended up doing was repositioning my Cipher in the group (I use kind of an upside down cross formation with the tank one character space further ahead) so that he was on one of the sides instead of the middle.  It made opening up with multiple Mind Lances much easier in dungeons.  So much so that for many trash packs, I'd just pull with him too.

 

 

Your numbers perfectly showed what you want a Rogue for. You have your three casters and your Rogue. All three of them have roughly dealt the same damage over the course of the game. But what is the one big difference? Your casters deal AoE damage. Whenever they cast a spell, they rack up damage by hitting four, five, six enemies at the same time, all of them contributing to the overall dealt damage. All the while your Rogue needs to attack one target at a time. Yet your Rogue managed to deal the same overall damage that all your other classes dealt by dealing their damage to multiple enemies at the same time.

 

Simplified example: for every 10 damage your casters dealt to five enemies, your Rogue dealt 50 damage to a single enemy.

 

What do you want your Rogues for? To burst down single targets. Enemy casters, bosses, dragons. All the stuff you don't want to stand too long.

 

To be fair, most of rogue's damage compared to wizard comes from trash encounters where wizard barely casts anything (or probably spams low level CC later on on levels 9+). If wizard wants to do burst on a single target in a boss fight, he'll beat a rogue in this as well. OP's cipher numbers are just way suboptimal since ciphers can use offensive spells in trash encounters throughout the whole game. By the endgame AW spam alone deals like 5x damage of the ranged rogue.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[MoxyWoo]

Also, I remember from another spell thread that the animation for spells was faster, hence with recovery being roughly equal, the casters always pull ahead due to the literal spell spam being possible and a ceiling the rogue can never break.

 

Adding in Alacrity for chunky spell spamming is hilariously good for a wizard too.

 

Edit to add link:  https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77511-spell-speed-by-frame/

Edited April 29, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Sanctuary]

 

 

 

 

I think the reasons you bring a Rogue are different then the reasons you have a Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Cipher in the party. The Rogue doesn't really have to be managed. The normal course of an encounter will get them their Crits and there Sneak Attacks. To do any type of damage with those other range classes requires you to actively manage abilities and spells.

 

The Rogue can hold their own weight. Is it the best character to bring along in a fully optimized party? Probably not.

 

 

This really is not true at all.  You still have to use their abilities 4x per fight at least and you have to constantly force them to attack after a target dies, or they just stand there doing nothing.  Simply putting them on some high health target while the rest of the group focus fires down others isn't really the way to go either unless your sole purpose is to inflate the Rogue's contribution in a really useless way.  I mean, it's not so much a Rogue as it is ranged classes in general.  They can all do what you're suggesting, while also adding significantly more damage overall per encounter.  I'm also at a loss as to your last statement.  Are you suggesting they only do well in unoptimized groups?  That's not really helping their case much.

 

edit: I know casters deal AoE damage, and I even pointed that out in the original post.  I said I'm not sure how much single target damage the Rogue is actually doing, and all of the AoE stuff really skews the damage among classes.  But 95% of the fights have 4+ enemies.

 

 

 

To be fair, most of rogue's damage compared to wizard comes from trash encounters where wizard barely casts anything (or probably spams low level CC later on on levels 9+). If wizard wants to do burst on a single target in a boss fight, he'll beat a rogue in this as well. OP's cipher numbers are just way suboptimal since ciphers can use offensive spells in trash encounters throughout the whole game. By the endgame AW spam alone deals like 5x damage of the ranged rogue.

 

 

You've already mentioned that, and I also already said that I was using offensive spells.  I didn't just use blunderbuss auto attack with Mental Binding the entire time.  Most of the early game was actually Soul Shock spam, or Mental Binding if really needed and then Soul Shock spam until I needed to fire.  The main reason the Cipher was falling behind mid-game was because of where I had him placed in the formation.  It was way too annoying having to slowly pull him from the mid-back around to the side in an attempt to Mind Lance.  After one simple change, especially in the later dungeons, he started catching up to the Rogue (and then finally passed her). 

 

On my current playthrough I'm going out of my way to skip as much CC stuff with the Cipher as possible and focus on damage where applicable as well as opening with Mind Lance as soon as it unlocks.  I'm also not using the 50% XP requirement of IE mod this time just to give a fairer assessment of what each class can do over the course of the game, since they will be unlocking more accuracy and abilities sooner.

 

Honestly though, I'll be really surprised if the damage numbers are some night and day difference as you're suggesting.  On the playthrough with the numbers recently posted, I didn't even get Amplified Wave until only a few hours were left in the game due to the XP mod.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Dignity]

To be honest I don't really see the point of a ranged rogue. A melee rogue, on the other hand does huge damage, of course they die pretty easily too. If I were going for a ranged damage dealer I'd gone with ranger instead. AC, marked prey, roots and great accuracy.

 

There's one thing Rogues have that Rangers can't touch in terms of the ranged dps slot: ridiculous alpha strike/burst damage potential. Rogues can give you such powerful openings to fights thanks to their full attack per encounter/per rest abilities in conjunction with sneak attack which can have incredible tactical value on fights with targets that actually matter by taking out a priority target before starting a full engagement.

 

Against most stuff though Rangers will probably pull ahead given enough time for the reasons you point out but when I need that annoying target taken out from range before it becomes a problem (Fampyrs, etc) give me a Rogue over a Ranger every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Climhazzard]

Pretty good cipher tactic is also casting ectopsychic echo on a monk, who runs into enemy backline eating disengagement attacks (moar wounds!) if needed, melting everything in between.

 

 

 

Recently discovered this awesome tactic, my cipher and monk might fall in love with each other, works even better with fast runner on the monk (or long stride).

 

Finally got around to doing a run on PotD, nearly done now, so far it's been a lot easier than I was expecting, few comments based on my PotD run...

 

My monk is still tearing **** up per usual, only noticed the change in difficulty level in the early levels (shades and phantoms).

 

Eder is still pretty much unkillable, which I wasn't really expecting because I've read in this thread that his defenses don't cut it in PotD (they clearly do).

 

Kana still doesn't usually have enough time to use his invocations, which is disappointing, invocations are like a rare novelty in this game.  He's performing just fine as an offtank though even though it's PotD.

 

Aloth has come into his own due to Eldritch aim.  I still don't like the grimoire mechanic, and certain spell tiers feel pretty lacking compared to others.

 

Grieving mother is still great as always, though now I often have to wait for inspiring radiance or other accuracy buffs before I use mental binding.

 

Durance, with his accuracy buffs and other utilities, seems even more necessary than before.

 

My monk thanks Hiravias for his sacrifice to the blood pool....

Edited April 30, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I've actually started to like Rangers in melee. There swift aim can cancel out defender penalty and if using a quarterstaff or pike can stand behind there pet doing damage. They can get pretty high deflection if you put point into Per and Res. Don't really need Int if going melee over ranged. And if you make sure they are attacking same enemy as the AI they can get pretty high accuracy.

 

And if need be get 3 slots. Can go quarterstaff to dual spears and war bow when they can't reach anyone.

 

Back to Rogues I almost never used their per encounter abilities and they still basically crited and sneak attack every hit.. My Rogue was 2nd end of game in damage barely under my PC (1st playthrough normal). However by the end of the game I got really tired of using abilities and spells. and besides my cipher I didn't have the wizard or druid really setup as ranged weapon users. Originally focused on spells and class talents.

 

But on Normal and even Hard you can really build any class into anything. I mean it is even totally possible to have a front line wizard. Basically only need to cast 2-3 self buffs which are instant cast. Then you can spam any of your per encounter high damage spells. Plus there are 2 Rings of Wizardy for extra spells.

 

The only class I really don't like is Paladin. It just seems like anything they can do another class does way better. Especially as an NPC since faith and conviction is bugged and only works for the PC.

[Blovski]

 

Pretty good cipher tactic is also casting ectopsychic echo on a monk, who runs into enemy backline eating disengagement attacks (moar wounds!) if needed, melting everything in between.

 

 

 

Recently discovered this awesome tactic, my cipher and monk might fall in love with each other, works even better with fast runner on the monk (or long stride).

 

Finally got around to doing a run on PotD, nearly done now, so far it's been a lot easier than I was expecting, few comments based on my PotD run...

 

My monk is still tearing **** up per usual, only noticed the change in difficulty level in the early levels (shades and phantoms).

 

Eder is still pretty much unkillable, which I wasn't really expecting because I've read in this thread that his defenses don't cut it in PotD (they clearly do).

 

Kana still doesn't usually have enough time to use his invocations, which is disappointing, invocations are like a rare novelty in this game.  He's performing just fine as an offtank though even though it's PotD.

 

Aloth has come into his own due to Eldritch aim.  I still don't like the grimoire mechanic, and certain spell tiers feel pretty lacking compared to others.

 

Grieving mother is still great as always, though now I often have to wait for inspiring radiance or other accuracy buffs before I use mental binding.

 

Durance, with his accuracy buffs and other utilities, seems even more necessary than before.

 

My monk thanks Hiravias for his sacrifice to the blood pool....

 

I'm working on a Cipher/Deflection Rogue double-team, whereby the Cipher casts Ectopsychic Echo on the Rogue, who then uses Escape or Shadowing Beyond to get behind the enemy line and goes to pick on squishies.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

 

I'm working on a Cipher/Deflection Rogue double-team, whereby the Cipher casts Ectopsychic Echo on the Rogue, who then uses Escape or Shadowing Beyond to get behind the enemy line and goes to pick on squishies.

 

 

Interesting. I find it easy to cipher paralyze them and then gun then down with a cannon player.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

 

 

I think the reasons you bring a Rogue are different then the reasons you have a Ranger, Wizard, Druid, Cipher in the party. The Rogue doesn't really have to be managed. The normal course of an encounter will get them their Crits and there Sneak Attacks. To do any type of damage with those other range classes requires you to actively manage abilities and spells.

 

The Rogue can hold their own weight. Is it the best character to bring along in a fully optimized party? Probably not.

 

 

This really is not true at all.  You still have to use their abilities 4x per fight at least and you have to constantly force them to attack after a target dies, or they just stand there doing nothing.  Simply putting them on some high health target while the rest of the group focus fires down others isn't really the way to go either unless your sole purpose is to inflate the Rogue's contribution in a really useless way.  I mean, it's not so much a Rogue as it is ranged classes in general.  They can all do what you're suggesting, while also adding significantly more damage overall per encounter.  I'm also at a loss as to your last statement.  Are you suggesting they only do well in unoptimized groups?  That's not really helping their case much.

 

edit: I know casters deal AoE damage, and I even pointed that out in the original post.  I said I'm not sure how much single target damage the Rogue is actually doing, and all of the AoE stuff really skews the damage among classes.  But 95% of the fights have 4+ enemies.

 

 

 

To be fair, most of rogue's damage compared to wizard comes from trash encounters where wizard barely casts anything (or probably spams low level CC later on on levels 9+). If wizard wants to do burst on a single target in a boss fight, he'll beat a rogue in this as well. OP's cipher numbers are just way suboptimal since ciphers can use offensive spells in trash encounters throughout the whole game. By the endgame AW spam alone deals like 5x damage of the ranged rogue.

 

 

You've already mentioned that, and I also already said that I was using offensive spells.  I didn't just use blunderbuss auto attack with Mental Binding the entire time.  Most of the early game was actually Soul Shock spam, or Mental Binding if really needed and then Soul Shock spam until I needed to fire.  The main reason the Cipher was falling behind mid-game was because of where I had him placed in the formation.  It was way too annoying having to slowly pull him from the mid-back around to the side in an attempt to Mind Lance.  After one simple change, especially in the later dungeons, he started catching up to the Rogue (and then finally passed her). 

 

On my current playthrough I'm going out of my way to skip as much CC stuff with the Cipher as possible and focus on damage where applicable as well as opening with Mind Lance as soon as it unlocks.  I'm also not using the 50% XP requirement of IE mod this time just to give a fairer assessment of what each class can do over the course of the game, since they will be unlocking more accuracy and abilities sooner.

 

Honestly though, I'll be really surprised if the damage numbers are some night and day difference as you're suggesting.  On the playthrough with the numbers recently posted, I didn't even get Amplified Wave until only a few hours were left in the game due to the XP mod.

 

Well, I have a different experience. At low levels cipher deals more damage because of soul shock. At mid levels (like 3-5) rogue gets a better weapon and cipher starts to spam more mental bindings, so rogue might pull ahead. Cipher pulls ahead again when he gets ectopsychic echo (you said it's difficult to setup but it's really not if you have a tank) and keeps the lead until the end of the game. When cipher gets AW his damage done just skyrockets (you said you didn't use it much so maybe that's why). You can check if by fighting 1 battle with level 12 cipher and rogue where you cast 3+ AWs and compare the damage done difference after the battle. It's easily 5x.

[MadDemiurg]

For what it's worth I've spreadsheeted the damage of rogue and cipher accounting for main passives vs 50-150 deflection range and 5DT(can say it's 10 + vulnerable):

 

Ranged rogue deals about 1.33 of ranged cipher damage on average (which is more than what I've expected, but still not a big difference considering extra dps from spells). This assumes 100% sneak attack, no deathblows and no cipher buffs or spells, just autoattack. If you add tactical meld rogue deals 0.86 of cipher's damage. If you add borrowed instinct rogue deals 0.64 of cipher's damage. Finally, if you add deathblows (assuming 100% deathblows) for the rogue rogue deals 1.61 of buffed cipher's damage, however these would have to compete vs AW rather than autoattack, which is pretty much impossible to beat in terms of total dps and are more difficult to setup (your casters pretty much need to babysit the rogue).

 

Melee rogue with reckless assault deals 2x of cipher's DPS. Vs tactical it's 1.28 and vs tactical&borrowed it's 0.94. If you add 100% deathblows it's 2.08.

 

Overall as expected ranged rogue doesn't hold a candle to melee rogue, and if you count the aoe dps from spells in, to cipher. It's also worth noting that rogue brings almost no utility compared to casters. I'd say that damage they deal is probably enough anyway, but their utility options need to be improved.

Edited April 30, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Sanctuary]

Main issue with the game is that 99% of the encounters consist of swarms of trash.  Going from Normal to Hard just emphasizes this even more.  There are very few enemies in the game, aside from some very rare boss fights that have really high health enemies that have to be dealt with for any extended period of time.

 

With how crummy the Ranger is on Hard and above, and with how the Ranged Rogue is kind of "bleh" for overall contribution, even if their single target is actually above average, what do you think of piecemealing together an actual (purely physical) ranged class using a combination of Rogue and Ranger talents?  The only thing I know for sure is that it would require Sneak Attack, but aside from that it would primarily be Ranger abilities.  But I'm not sure I'd want them to have Sneak Attack earlier or later.

 

One thing is for sure, having to rely on such a squishy and micro intensive pet for damage is just stupid.  You would almost certainly get more damage from simply using a pike wielding Rogue.

 

I'm also not sure what your groups usually consist of, but I've been keeping 2x Wizards in mine, and I've only been playing on Hard.  One PotD playthrough was enough for the short term and going from Easy and Normal to Hard increases enemy count.  Anyway, pretty much every fight ends up with 4x Arcane Assaults being used on 2-5 enemies, and if it's larger or tough packs, I just drop 2x Chill Fog (which is normally enough to kill the back row enemies alone).  I've been using the Cipher as offensively as possible, but she's still 3rd highest damage right now.  When you play, were you just sending a tank in, letting him get swarmed, casting Soul Shock and ignoring Arcane Assault or just delaying it?

 

Right now, very surprisingly (but thankfully), my Spellsword Wizard--who has 25 DR right now from multiple sources--is actually in the lead, and I'm actually casting spells less than Aloth, but not much.  I find this kind of strange though since I am at a 50% recovery.  It's going to get really silly at level 9 and then 11 when I can have +crit, +end, +acc up at all times, as well as burning haste on big packs/bosses.  It's not a matter of stats either.  I made sure all of the caster/ranged damage dealers had max Might and max Dex, and the Cipher doesn't have armor with any delay on it.

Still debating on using the buff out of combat mod though.  It still takes 5-8s in combat to get them all up.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Sanctuary

[MadDemiurg]

I've only played PotD (1.5 times with a party so far and 2 times solo). My usual tactics included sending tank in to get swarmed and then casting soul shock for low levels when facing swarms of weak enemies. mental binding for strong enemies. Later on soul shock can be replaced with ectopsychic echo and some flanking if the situation allows it. I had 1 wizard max and he was throwing arcane assault in there as well as soon as the enemies clump up. Later on I switched to casters in the front nuking formation and just opened with winter winds/mind lance/Fan of flames combo, mixing in some CC to stall advancement. First party I had was Druid/Wizard/Priest/Cipher/Chanter/Fighter. No Rogue to compare but Cipher was slightly ahead of everyone until the lategame when the damage dramatically spiked with AW. Wizard was #2 and even #1 for some levels, but no contest after level 11. 2nd is Paladin/Monk/Rogue(pike/arbalest)/Ranger/Cipher. Cipher is still #1 so far with a slight lead, 2nd one surprisingly is monk. I've noticed that being a PC helps with damage dealt a lot since you get a level lead on mercs which is more important than one might think. PCs for my parties were Druid and Paladin for the record.

 

As for Ranger/Rogue, I think AC needs some improvements and Ranger needs some extra damage buffs, like +30% when attacking the same enemy with AC or when attacking enemy under DoT or whatever. His base is much more suitable for a ranged character than a Rogue. That would make a good physical ranged character. i don't think rangers need SA, there are other mechanics to add extra damage. I think rangers have +50% damage for AC when attacking enemies affected by DoT (called predator's sence or something like that), so if that worked for the ranger at least at half strength that would be pretty good.

 

Recovery in my experience doesn't affect total damage all that much (+50% recovery is actually like 80% attack speed in reality) and is more than compensated by higher dps of melee weapons (unless you put a fullplate on the archer).

Edited April 30, 2015 by MadDemiurg