Let's talk class balance....

[taek]

I have barely dabbled with PotD so far - but aren't wizards the worst casting class on PotD ? I mean, the primary difference between PotD and hard is monsters get much better stats across the board. If they have much better stats, they're much harder to enchant. Like every crappy and unfair RPG system ever designed, PoE has saving throws for negative spells. Buffs don't ever have to pass a defense throw.

 

Priests have the most buffs among all casting classes. Druids are second. Wizards are last. Does this mean  Priest > Druid > Wizard on PotD ?

 

Wizard has the best buffs in the game...with the caveat they are self only.

 

So the conditions you describe actually favor the Wizard. I actually the find the Wizard nukes kinda whatever...their CC + buffs is what makes them so powerful.

 

Druids are 2nd best buffers? What buffs do they even have? They're mainly offensive nukers.

[b0rsuk]

I meant party buffs. Druids do have spells like +15% endurance and healing, and Moonwell which combines healing with defense. Woodskin is great if you slash-proof your armor.

[Blovski]

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

[b0rsuk]

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 

It seems in 1.03 they've added a whole range of companion comments on effects like Poisoned, Stuck, Paralyzed. It makes it really hard for less perceptive players to miss those effect. Maybe a new line of companion comments is in line ? "This place is too hard, we should try something easier" when you run out of camping supplies. Maybe they would get the hint.

[Sanctuary]

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Schyzm]

 

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

 

 

 

I agree completely that per rest stuff is badly designed and that it basically only takes up your real life time to run back is obnoxious.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

It reminds me of Fallout NV hardcore mode. In the end it didn't enhance the game or make it more difficult it just eventually became annoying. Should have either stuck with per rest or per encounter universally. Not this some class per encounter and some per rest. Same thing for talents and items. Could have just made the items have charges and be able to be reloaded.

 

If you thought per encounter was going to unbalance everything then rebalance the aspects. Maybe enemy's would need more End/HP or more Might. Or perhaps you get less uses instead of 4 per rest make it 2 per encounter. Or use the Cipher magic for every caster. Ever one has Focus. Different classes maybe build it different etc.

 

Its just when you take the game overall big picture all of these different aspects of the game are in contradiction with each other. Everything has its own individual rule or exceptions etc. There are 3 different magic systems in the game!

 

One for Ciphers. One for Priests and Druids and then another completely different one for Wizards. Honestly it makes no sense to have 3 different systems.

 

It doesn't honestly take away anything from the game for me. But if it was the 1st cRPG you picked up you probably be more confused playing PoE then an IE original game. and if there is going to be a PoE 2 then I would like things like that to get sorted out.

 

And agreed camping is just an inconvenience for the player. No matter on what difficulty. If you can just fast travel to an Inn with no consequences. Might as well have removed camping made resting Inn/Village/Stronghold only and gave more emphasis on HP healing.

[Blovski]

 

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

 

You misunderstand me. I think the camping system is a soft way to indicate to the player when they're underlevelled while attempting an area. If I need a separate rest for, say, every two encounters on level 8 of the Endless Paths, I realise I should come back later with bigger swords rather than brute-forcing it by eating a couple of wipes, save/loading a ton and hoping my Dominate spell gets the Fampyrs eaten by their friends. I personally tend to find that my tanks run out of health about as quickly as my casters run out of spells, it's only really secondary backrow casters and archers that I don't have that problem with, and even then, only if the engagements are going perfectly.

 

If you take these mechanics out, you have a binary THE FIGHT IS TOO HARD TO PROCEED/THE FIGHT IS NOT TOO HARD TO PROCEED system of feedback for the player, in addition to which you cut out any sense of attrition and make the game somewhat easier. That said, I would support an option to have infinite camping supplies for people who want to play the game like that or anyone doing interesting caster solo shenanigans.

[Haplok]

Its just when you take the game overall big picture all of these different aspects of the game are in contradiction with each other. Everything has its own individual rule or exceptions etc. There are 3 different magic systems in the game!

 

One for Ciphers. One for Priests and Druids and then another completely different one for Wizards. Honestly it makes no sense to have 3 different systems.

 

You forgot Chanters. And, to a lesser degree, Paladins. So it's more then 3.

But I find it perfect. Well, maybe except Chanter invokations taking longer to evoke on higher level/longer phrases.

 

Variety is the spice of life!

And the beauty of this game...

Don't you dare take it away, steamlining stuff!

Edited April 28, 2015 by Haplok

[Schyzm]

 

 

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

 

You misunderstand me. I think the camping system is a soft way to indicate to the player when they're underlevelled while attempting an area. If I need a separate rest for, say, every two encounters on level 8 of the Endless Paths, I realise I should come back later with bigger swords rather than brute-forcing it by eating a couple of wipes, save/loading a ton and hoping my Dominate spell gets the Fampyrs eaten by their friends. I personally tend to find that my tanks run out of health about as quickly as my casters run out of spells, it's only really secondary backrow casters and archers that I don't have that problem with, and even then, only if the engagements are going perfectly.

 

If you take these mechanics out, you have a binary THE FIGHT IS TOO HARD TO PROCEED/THE FIGHT IS NOT TOO HARD TO PROCEED system of feedback for the player, in addition to which you cut out any sense of attrition and make the game somewhat easier. That said, I would support an option to have infinite camping supplies for people who want to play the game like that or anyone doing interesting caster solo shenanigans.

 

 

there's a perfectly reasonable way to indicate an area is marginal in terms of clearing it, that a bunch of ur dudes are getting knocked out. u don't need a camping system to indicate difficulty. its really, like a lot of the bad things in this game, a 20 year old legacy that they may have felt obligated to include because of the promise of making this "baldurs gate 3"

[Blovski]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

 

You misunderstand me. I think the camping system is a soft way to indicate to the player when they're underlevelled while attempting an area. If I need a separate rest for, say, every two encounters on level 8 of the Endless Paths, I realise I should come back later with bigger swords rather than brute-forcing it by eating a couple of wipes, save/loading a ton and hoping my Dominate spell gets the Fampyrs eaten by their friends. I personally tend to find that my tanks run out of health about as quickly as my casters run out of spells, it's only really secondary backrow casters and archers that I don't have that problem with, and even then, only if the engagements are going perfectly.

 

If you take these mechanics out, you have a binary THE FIGHT IS TOO HARD TO PROCEED/THE FIGHT IS NOT TOO HARD TO PROCEED system of feedback for the player, in addition to which you cut out any sense of attrition and make the game somewhat easier. That said, I would support an option to have infinite camping supplies for people who want to play the game like that or anyone doing interesting caster solo shenanigans.

 

 

there's a perfectly reasonable way to indicate an area is marginal in terms of clearing it, that a bunch of ur dudes are getting knocked out. u don't need a camping system to indicate difficulty. its really, like a lot of the bad things in this game, a 20 year old legacy that they may have felt obligated to include because of the promise of making this "baldurs gate 3"

 

You take the resting out, you get rid of the persistence from encounters, make the game rather easier, especially making it easier to cheese encounters by fighting them piecemeal. It would also make encounters more monotonous because you'd have identical resources for all of them. Same difference as regenerating health in shooters, really.

 

It's not even a BG legacy, really, just a decision on whether you want encounters to have any relationship with each other.

[Sanctuary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

 

You misunderstand me. I think the camping system is a soft way to indicate to the player when they're underlevelled while attempting an area. If I need a separate rest for, say, every two encounters on level 8 of the Endless Paths, I realise I should come back later with bigger swords rather than brute-forcing it by eating a couple of wipes, save/loading a ton and hoping my Dominate spell gets the Fampyrs eaten by their friends. I personally tend to find that my tanks run out of health about as quickly as my casters run out of spells, it's only really secondary backrow casters and archers that I don't have that problem with, and even then, only if the engagements are going perfectly.

 

If you take these mechanics out, you have a binary THE FIGHT IS TOO HARD TO PROCEED/THE FIGHT IS NOT TOO HARD TO PROCEED system of feedback for the player, in addition to which you cut out any sense of attrition and make the game somewhat easier. That said, I would support an option to have infinite camping supplies for people who want to play the game like that or anyone doing interesting caster solo shenanigans.

 

 

there's a perfectly reasonable way to indicate an area is marginal in terms of clearing it, that a bunch of ur dudes are getting knocked out. u don't need a camping system to indicate difficulty. its really, like a lot of the bad things in this game, a 20 year old legacy that they may have felt obligated to include because of the promise of making this "baldurs gate 3"

 

You take the resting out, you get rid of the persistence from encounters, make the game rather easier, especially making it easier to cheese encounters by fighting them piecemeal. It would also make encounters more monotonous because you'd have identical resources for all of them. Same difference as regenerating health in shooters, really.

 

It's not even a BG legacy, really, just a decision on whether you want encounters to have any relationship with each other.

 

 

Don't mistake difficulty with tedium.  The game already allows you to fight each encounter "piecemeal" if you really want to go that extra mile (which is another form of tedium in and of itself).  After you've finished the game at least once, and know what to expect from most encounters, it gets easier knowing when you should be using your spells and when you should be saving them for emergencies.  The problem is, during a first playthrough, a lot of encounters never really need those emergency spells, and they end up not actually being used due to you not having any idea when you're actually going to really need them, and they are so limited in the begining. Or conversely, you could have used them all up, killing swarms that could have been dealt with another way, and then end up not having what you need at the right time.

 

You want to talk about cheese?  As much as I don't believe the Cipher is "god mode", they do entirely bypass your argument.  Why even bother with a Wizard until you can recruit one at level 9 when another Cipher would actually contribute more most of the time?  All I do with my Wizards on most fights is have them use Arcane Assault two times each (which adds up) and then just shoot a bow.  On any fight with 6+ enemies I end up using Chill Fog, which ends up being around nine uses total until you need to find more camping supplies.  Problem is, I shouldn't have to use nothing but that until level 9+ (yes, I realize they have more than just level 1 spells, it's just that the majority of the time they are either overkill or too limited to use that much).  Then, you have other classes like a Rogue, who has multiple per encounter abilities or a Monk, who is similar to the Cipher in regards to being able to generate resources to use abilities every single encounter who laugh at camping supplies.  Then there's the Chanter, who is always doing his thing.

 

The game's difficulty starts to rapidly diminish after level 5, no matter the difficulty setting, and it's pretty much gone by level 9.  So all of this talk of "tactics" and "depth" only applies to the earliest levels.  The game in general is trivialized by many setups, so acting as though limited rests somehow mitigates those problems is just silly.  To me it just seems like some of you want to be Obsidian apologists and that no matter what, "the developer knows best".

 

If that were the case, Rangers and Paladins would not be in their current states.  Also to a much lesser extent Wizards, Druids and Priests, who should get their first level per encounter spells much earlier than level 9.  Even if that means cutting their current amount of uses in half.  It's a game.  Games are supposed to be fun.  Auto attacking most of the time is not really fun.  At least not to me.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Blovski]

 

Don't mistake difficulty with tedium.  The game already allows you to fight each encounter "piecemeal" if you really want to go that extra mile (which is another form of tedium in and of itself).  After you've finished the game at least once, and know what to expect from most encounters, it gets easier knowing when you should be using your spells and when you should be saving them for emergencies.  The problem is, during a first playthrough, a lot of encounters never really need those emergency spells, and they end up not actually being used due to you not having any idea when you're actually going to really need them, and they are so limited in the begining. Or conversely, you could have used them all up, killing swarms that could have been dealt with another way, and then end up not having what you need at the right time.

 

You want to talk about cheese?  As much as I don't believe the Cipher is "god mode", they do entirely bypass your argument.  Why even bother with a Wizard until you can recruit one at level 9 when another Cipher would actually contribute more most of the time?  All I do with my Wizards on most fights is have them use Arcane Assault two times each (which adds up) and then just shoot a bow.  On any fight with 6+ enemies I end up using Chill Fog, which ends up being around nine uses total until you need to find more camping supplies.  Problem is, I shouldn't have to use nothing but that until level 9+ (yes, I realize they have more than just level 1 spells, it's just that the majority of the time they are either overkill or too limited to use that much).  Then, you have other classes like a Rogue, who has multiple per encounter abilities or a Monk, who is similar to the Cipher in regards to being able to generate resources to use abilities every single encounter who laugh at camping supplies.  Then there's the Chanter, who is always doing his thing.

 

The game's difficulty starts to rapidly diminish after level 5, no matter the difficulty setting, and it's pretty much gone by level 9.  So all of this talk of "tactics" and "depth" only applies to the earliest levels.  The game in general is trivialized by many setups, so acting as though limited rests somehow mitigates those problems is just silly.  To me it just seems like some of you want to be Obsidian apologists and that no matter what, "the developer knows best".

 

If that were the case, Rangers and Paladins would not be in their current states.  Also to a much lesser extent Wizards, Druids and Priests, who should get their first level per encounter spells much earlier than level 9.  Even if that means cutting their current amount of uses in half.  It's a game.  Games are supposed to be fun.  Auto attacking most of the time is not really fun.  At least not to me.

 

Obsidian have made a fair number of mistakes with this game (abysmal AI, really mixed quality of dungeon design, main quest hook never actually reinforced on the player meaningfully, Brighthollow requiring four loading screens in and out for Stronghold rests, Stronghold prisoner system very much undercooked, bounty XP being off the charts) but I think having persistence across encounters is usually a good choice. Same with shooters with regenerating health.

 

The fact that, if you've the patience, you can brute force past the system is a small problem for it but I don't really see how to avoid that *if* you like the rest limitations.

 

I'm running a tank wizard on PotD. I usually run out of important spells at about the time my fighter's running out of HP. Ciphers/Chanters run on different casting systems to the Vancian casters, which is a big part of what differentiates them. I'd be happy for Wizards/etc to get their spells/encounter earlier with a slightly bigger gap between the levels at which they get them. I'd also be happy with an optional free rest button for people who want it.

 

Difficulty curve is borked, true, but that's almost always the case with a more flexible RPG system, since once you've got the specialisation and role you're building for difficulty will obviously melt if you know what you're doing. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Blovski

[Schyzm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

 

 

I think it's basically a way of showing you when you're out of your depth and might want to go do something else for the moment. It works for me.

 

 Why do so many of the comments around here plummet into this "you just aren't good" at the game elitist nonsense?  Not liking a specific mechanic says nothing at all about the player or whether or not they are having any legitimate difficulty.  And those that criticize those who don't like the mechanic seem to ignore the fact that it penalizes some classes much more than others (some not at all).  You also seem to forget that it becomes a non issue at level 9 and 11, so why even have it in the first place? 

 

"Oh, here's your reward for tolerating this for so long!".

 

There was an entire thread where someone was asking for a camping mod, and of course a bunch of snobs jumped in and exploded all over him about how bad he was, how lazy he was etc. etc. when his biggest gripe was the fact that for the first 8 levels, his PC Wizard was resigned to using auto attack 80% of the fight.  No one in their right mind picks the Wizard expecting to do that.  He had already finished PotD with his Wizard, yet was still basically told to "git gud" as though he needed advice on how to actually finish.

 

You misunderstand me. I think the camping system is a soft way to indicate to the player when they're underlevelled while attempting an area. If I need a separate rest for, say, every two encounters on level 8 of the Endless Paths, I realise I should come back later with bigger swords rather than brute-forcing it by eating a couple of wipes, save/loading a ton and hoping my Dominate spell gets the Fampyrs eaten by their friends. I personally tend to find that my tanks run out of health about as quickly as my casters run out of spells, it's only really secondary backrow casters and archers that I don't have that problem with, and even then, only if the engagements are going perfectly.

 

If you take these mechanics out, you have a binary THE FIGHT IS TOO HARD TO PROCEED/THE FIGHT IS NOT TOO HARD TO PROCEED system of feedback for the player, in addition to which you cut out any sense of attrition and make the game somewhat easier. That said, I would support an option to have infinite camping supplies for people who want to play the game like that or anyone doing interesting caster solo shenanigans.

 

 

there's a perfectly reasonable way to indicate an area is marginal in terms of clearing it, that a bunch of ur dudes are getting knocked out. u don't need a camping system to indicate difficulty. its really, like a lot of the bad things in this game, a 20 year old legacy that they may have felt obligated to include because of the promise of making this "baldurs gate 3"

 

You take the resting out, you get rid of the persistence from encounters, make the game rather easier, especially making it easier to cheese encounters by fighting them piecemeal. It would also make encounters more monotonous because you'd have identical resources for all of them. Same difference as regenerating health in shooters, really.

 

It's not even a BG legacy, really, just a decision on whether you want encounters to have any relationship with each other.

 

 

thats the problem though is that the game is NEVER easier by taking resting out, it is just less cumbersome, you can always just run back for more camping. you seem to be missing like...the main complaint here.

[b0rsuk]

If resting system annoys munchkins to no end but leaves normal players alone, I say it's a GOOD system !

[Schyzm]

If resting system annoys munchkins to no end but leaves normal players alone, I say it's a GOOD system !

 

yah you do come across as a pretty spiteful person.

[Blovski]

thats the problem though is that the game is NEVER easier by taking resting out, it is just less cumbersome, you can always just run back for more camping. you seem to be missing like...the main complaint here.

 

 

I think the resting mechanic is basically good. The way it's implemented necessitates there being a very time-consuming way to undermine it available. The encounters/areas/difficulty obviously aren't balanced around people resting at will. Your position seems to be that because it's *possible* to undermine the resting mechanic to force through tough areas if you cba with it, doing that should be effortless to reduce busywork.

 

I think you'd have a very different (and worse) game with all abilities being de facto per encounter, so I like the system as is where it is technically possible so players can't get completely stuck but it's discouraged from being a thing that's used all the time.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Blovski

[Schyzm]

 

thats the problem though is that the game is NEVER easier by taking resting out, it is just less cumbersome, you can always just run back for more camping. you seem to be missing like...the main complaint here.

 

 

I think the resting mechanic is basically good. The way it's implemented necessitates there being a very time-consuming way to undermine it available. The encounters/areas/difficulty obviously aren't balanced around people resting at will. Your position seems to be that because it's *possible* to undermine the resting mechanic to force through tough areas if you cba with it, doing that should be effortless to reduce busywork.

 

I think you'd have a very different (and worse) game with all abilities being de facto per encounter, so I like the system as is where it is technically possible so players can't get completely stuck but it's discouraged from being a thing that's used all the time.

 

 

its not like undermining it requires some game bug, undermining it is literally "damn I used some spells and i'm outta camps, guess I'll run back." 

 

and yes its bad design if the "difficulty" of a game is tedium and not actual thought and skill. 

[MadDemiurg]

I'd say that if free inns would give you minor fatigue after rest I'd be ok with the current rest system.

Edited April 28, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[CriticalFailure]

Some people seem to be under the impression that those of us who don't like the current resting mechanic just want to rest every two seconds. Is that what they do in other games with free resting? Are they unable to put their own restrictions?

 

I'm not against resting restrictions in general, but I think there are better ways to do it than putting an arbitrary cap on camp supplies (meanwhile, I can carry around 100 full plates like it's nothing). At least in my case (and others who have expressed such), it's a matter of convenience, and not about "cheating" or making the game easier.

[Schyzm]

so the idea of limited resting is not bad, it adds tension and a "survival" aspect to the game, but once u realize its not actually limited resting, then it just adds tedium. I assume they couldn't actually make it limited because that would cause some people to become "stuck" where they could win a fight but not in their unrested state.

[Voltron]

The whole idea of limited resting is just stupid. The whole game in basicely in the middle of summer. There are no storms, no raining etc. 

 

The whole game is in medieval-fantasy world. Everybody know how to get wood to make camp. Whats more- you have wizards who can just make fire anytime.

 

So in my backpack I carry 5x Plate armors and 3x Halberds but I can have pillow and something to lay on in the night?

 

Whole idea is just stupid. If party want to rest- they rest. BG2 system was better where you could get attacked in the middle of sleep if you rested in not cleard area or in wilds. But having running after alsmost EACH battle for example as a Wizard to get 2x pillow and wood for camp, since your super uber lvl 12 party can't set up camp anytime they want- idea is so dull that I just refuse to use it. It is just plenty stupid.

 

I click rest- I rest and fk supplies. I will build wall around my camp each night with my plate armors, spears, shields and pikes which I have tons and let my 5 summons from figurines guard me whole night.

 

Better then inn with knights :D

Edited April 28, 2015 by Voltron

[CriticalFailure]

Not to mention the whole fatigue when travelling thing, which happens to be one of my gripes when paired with the current resting system. One would think that the characters would stop and take a break at some point during their off-screen journey, but apparently, travelling non-stop for several days across the whole country is perfectly normal. They can rest when they arrive to their destination... if they have supplies.

[SilchasRuin]

Camping Supplies are an abstraction which serve to fulfill an important role, that of insuring per rest is a meaningful mechanic and that classes can be allowed the option of going nova at the cost of relying on a smaller portion of resources in later encounters. People who complain that it's easy to circumvent through busy work ignore the point, virtually any mechanic that intends to punish players for poor play, and thus reward good play, punishes players through time. From game overs to repair on death mechanics to the limited resting mechanic in PoE. almost all of these systems are fundamentally just time sinks that can be avoided with good play.

 

With the current limited resting system, a balance can be constructed where players are encouraged to move forward until they run out of resources and to conserve resource. In the old IE games you could rest almost anywhere, and there was little incentive to not simply nova all of your spells and then rest immediately, thus trivializing all but the most difficult encounters. The IE games made use of a random encounter system when you rested which could be avoided very easily via save scumming. In my opinion, game designers should work to make sure that a player fully utilizing all available systems, that are accessible normally (without cheats/mods) will receive a properly balanced game experience. Limited rests mean that players must accommodate limited rests, either by maximizing the efficiency of their rest limited resources (health, spells, etc) or by spending the time to go find/purchase camping supplies.

 

The tradeoff given here insures that it is viable, and indeed ideal, to focus on the efficient and best usage of resources, rather than being able to spend all of the resources immediately, thus in effect reducing all per rest resources to per encounter. In order to balance a system where all resources are per encounter, on average every fight has to be more difficult and carry serious risk of game over, otherwise encounters become trivial and the difference between a player who adeptly manages their resources and wins fights by large margins is not being rewarded any more than the player who doesn't take care to manage their party properly and allows their party members to spend all of their resources and lose massive amounts of health, and indeed the more aggressive player is likely being rewarded with encounters that go faster because they don't take the time to micro each character to maintain resources.

Edited April 28, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Schyzm]

Camping Supplies are an abstraction which serve to fulfill an important role, that of insuring per rest is a meaningful mechanic and that classes can be allowed the option of going nova at the cost of relying on a smaller portion of resources in later encounters. People who complain that it's easy to circumvent through busy work ignore the point, virtually any mechanic that intends to punish players for poor play, and thus reward good play, punishes players through time. From game overs to repair on death mechanics to the limited resting mechanic in PoE. almost all of these systems are fundamentally just time sinks that can be avoided with good play.

 

With the current limited resting system, a balance can be constructed where players are encouraged to move forward until they run out of resources and to conserve resource. In the old IE games you could rest almost anywhere, and there was little incentive to not simply nova all of your spells and then rest immediately, thus trivializing all but the most difficult encounters. The IE games made use of a random encounter system when you rested which could be avoided very easily via save scumming. In my opinion, game designers should work to make sure that a player fully utilizing all available systems, that are accessible normally (without cheats/mods) will receive a properly balanced game experience. Limited rests mean that players must accommodate limited rests, either by maximizing the efficiency of their rest limited resources (health, spells, etc) or by spending the time to go find/purchase camping supplies.

 

The tradeoff given here insures that it is viable, and indeed ideal, to focus on the efficient and best usage of resources, rather than being able to spend all of the resources immediately, thus in effect reducing all per rest resources to per encounter. In order to balance a system where all resources are per encounter, on average every fight has to be more difficult and carry serious risk of game over, otherwise encounters become trivial and the difference between a player who adeptly manages their resources and wins fights by large margins is not being rewarded any more than the player who doesn't take care to manage their party properly and allows their party members to spend all of their resources and lose massive amounts of health, and indeed the more aggressive player is likely being rewarded with encounters that go faster because they don't take the time to micro each character to maintain resources.

 

punishing a player by having them die and thus costing them time is NOT the same as punishing them by having them run really long distances repeatedly. it is also wrong to say that running back often is poor play, it is plainly not poor play, in many ways it is ideal play, just boring play.

 

after those two things are wrong most of the rest of your argument is shambles.