Monk Wounds System

[Mazuo]

Can we get some dev response on whether this mechanic is going to be tweaked or overhauled in the near future?

 

During development it was described as providing a damage threshold sending overflow damage into the creation of wounds which would then cause damage over time based on what was avoided initially.  You would then spend the wounds to permanently avoid the damage taken or wait until you had built up enough wounds to spend them on something powerful or to use with a passive talent to increase damage output.

 

As it stands right now, there is no protection to be observed from wounds and they most certainly do not cause any damage over time when in existence.  It functions nearly as cipher focus in reverse and is very disappointing because of that.

[Mazuo]

Any thoughts from anyone?

[Emptiness]

I don't know exactly why they changed it, but I would imagine that it was determined to be a balance problem.  Monks are very good as they are now, so I don't see any need to also give them special damage reduction.

 

If you are finding your Monk to be too fragile then adjust your tactics to encourage enemies to attack your tougher characters (ie send in the tanks first).  Another possibility is to wear armor for DR.

 

My Monk is running around in (enchanted) clothes, and she takes a lot of damage.  Some fights she drops, but the important thing is that the party wins.  She does more than her share of damage in the time that she is standing.

[Mazuo]

The problem being that wounds encourages you to take damage without providing any mitigation like planned.  So you end up with monks in plate that don't accrue wounds fast enough and have pitiful attack speed or unarmored monks that can attack really fast but won't because in a few hits or one really good one they're down and out.

[Emptiness]

I think players look at the wounds system and then want come up with a way to have tons of wounds so that they can spam the monk's abilities.  There's nothing wrong with that approach, but it rightly comes at a cost.  If you want to be a bottomless font of destruction then you're going to have to take a lot of damage, and that means you're going to fall unconscious or one or more other characters are going to be tied up constantly healing you.  If you build and gear your monk to have a better chance of survival then you're going to take less damage, and that means less wounds to spend.  This tradeoff is critical to the balance of the wounds mechanic.  If there was a way to get and spend tons of wounds with relatively little chance of defeat then the mechanic would be broken.

[Ceranai]

I think the main issue here is that they changed the mechanic and not the description of it on the wiki or anywhere. It still says on the description that it mitigates damage which is just flat out not true. I mean when there are several guides etc out there saying that wounds do one thing it would be good to explain how they actually work somewhere visible.

[vcntmnd]

Agreed, I was under the impression wounds offered some mitigation, has anyone actually tested this?

[Doppelschwert]

During the backer beta it was announced that the mechanic was changed, however, I'm too lazy to search for a quote.

The reason given was that it was really hard to give feedback on how much damage was mitigated  and how it worked and that it was simply not very fun to deal with the way it was implemented, so they scratched the mitigation part. The game also doesn't mention it anywhere (does it?) so there is no reason to be confused about that playing the game.

 

In general, you shouldn't trust the wiki on anything because everyone is rather busy playing the beta/game instead of updating it.

 

By the way, it's perfectly viable to build a monk that uses almost no wounds at all, you just have to use turning wheel as a means to use them whenever you happen to get some of them. What's badly communicated is, however, that wounds wear off after some time. And that you need 8/10 damage to get one (with/without lesser wounds).

 

I'm sure there is a funny build using 'Dangerous Implement' to gather wounds for a backrow ranged monk who occasionally casts some wounds spell into the fray (while changing weapon sets). That's a good idea for a support character on my second playthrough ^_^

[vcntmnd]

I just want to throw out that the increased health, soul mirror (reflect missiles), rooting pain (aoe on wound) and duality of mortal presence (stance modal) still make monks decent enough tanks, no?

[Doppelschwert]

Yeah, they do. Not only that, 'Duality of Mortal Presence' stacks with other modals, so you can use it in conjunction with 'Cautious Attack' to further boost your Deflection. And then there is also 'Crucible of Suffering' which helps against enemies with Effects on hits. Last but not least, 'Stunning Fist' is Wound independent und a shorter, stronger version of Knockdown.

 

If you want to build a pure tank by stacking defensive talents and using Weapon/Shield style you have a very unique tank that occassionally CC the enemy when he actally gets a wound.

[Mazuo]

I wasn't going off anything on the wiki, rather the lengthy developer update expressly describing how monks were going to work in detail.  The class description there was one of the larger reasons I even backed the project as it sounded unique and fun.  So far none of it has come to fruition other than there's a class called monk listed in the game and he does easily get beat-up.

 

The problem is the wound system as it is now is bland and generic while still obtuse to new players not knowing how much damage it takes to create one or what lesser wounds even does without researching the subject.  It's pretty disappointing to see what was a pivotal component of a class removed.  I would hope the devs could at least readdress the system for the expansion if not put it in place for this campaign as I have no interest in a flatly worse version of Cipher focus.

 

At the very least an explanation of why the class was taken behind the woodshed and left like this would be great to have from someone official.

[Adhin]

Far as I'm concerned the wound mechanic is, off I guess. The original idea I liked, your setting aside some dmg to fuel abilities, If you don't use them, the dmg crops back up later. I can see that being a pain in the ass though so I see why they changed it. What I don't get, however, is how the only part of that they removed was the mitigation? They still go away after awhile and now your taking full dmg while having crappy endurance.

Your basically a rogue (with more HP but same endurance) with bad dmg that 'needs' to get hit to be effective. It's... It's just kinda weird, you know? I feel like wounds either need to stick around, through out battles, or... something. I dunno what, honestly, as in this game you tend to drop extremely fast unless you stack DR, or Deflection - or preferably both. Both of which heavily impact your ability to use your wounds. It's like your playing a Chanter with out your resource being automatic.

 

This and Druid Shifting I think needs some hefty updating. Druid one seems obvious, make the form DR update with lvls like Ranger pet does. Monk? I have no idea, maybe do DR% like Ciphers get dmg bonus? %resist while your wounds aren't max? Or bonus DR or something I dunno, it just feels wonky as **** atm, like some cosmic catch 22.

 

-edit-

Actually, maybe if we healed per wound expended? That would kind of mimic the concept they originally had. Like... 3 hp per wound used would help...ish. Not sure that would save anyone from dying horribly if there not going tank monk but yeah.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Adhin

[Matt516]

Monks are great. Griping about mechanics is fine, but it doesn't belong in this forum - wounds are not bugged.

[Veraxus]

I really like Adhin's idea for a small amount of heal every time a wound is spent.

 

Right now, playing a "naked monk" (no armor, no weapons) is pretty horrible. Monks seem to be either full-tilt generic gear tanks (to such an extent that the class might as well be called "Defender" instead of Monk, since this violates the very core concept of what a Monk is) or un-fun glass canons that do reasonable damage, but are virtually impossible to keep alive... and I've restarted multiple times looking for the magical, elusive stat combination to make it work.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this means the class is broken... since it's a choice between misusing the class (loads of armor & ignoring wound system) or constant death/failure, respectively. I feel that the whole point of a pure Monk class is to to play without the aid of traditional equipment... and the game just doesn't seem to have managed that at all.

 

But again... Adhin seems to have pointed out a really elegant, functional compromise: Spend Wounds to get back a little health!

 

It would definitely stabilize the class for those trying to play a traditional D&D-style no-equipment Monk without making the class OP for those playing armored tank-monks (and who will be gaining few or no wounds as a result).

Edited April 12, 2015 by Veraxus

[Daemonjax]

If you want to be a bottomless font of destruction then you're going to have to play a different class.

 

Fixed that for you.

 

A class feature that makes you consider shooting your monk in the head as combat starts may require closer inspection.

 

My recommended fix:  Monks start combat with X number of wounds, depending on how much health they lost so far (since last rest, of course).  X wounds per flat amount of health would work better than a percentage because it would add incentive for putting points in constitution and would inherently scale as the monk leveled.

 

Ditch the endurance to wounds mechanic entirely or lessen its importance.

 

So, when everyone else wants to rest, the monk is actually at its most powerful.  It would be interesting.  More interesting than what we got, anyways.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Casildar]

I'd just like wounds to not fade over time in combat.

 

 

Edit: Also, what Daemonjax said, although the health value of a wound would likely have to scale up as you stack more wounds (as in, wound 1 takes 8 health, wound 2 takes 12 health, etc).  If not, you'd either have a really low max wound level at low levels or it would be trivial to start fights with 10 wounds at high levels.  This would also make Mortification of the Flesh worth a second glance, since the wounds generated would be available for more than one fight.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Casildar