Cipher Tank, possible?

[Vizjerie]

I kind of want to try a Cipher tank; high resolve, int and perc which makes all conversations awesome. I will be going for the few faster powers like Mind Wave, which are also cone based and very good up front.

 

The only thing is i havent figured out how to deal with the slow attack = slow focus gain with heavy ass armor..

i mean, i guess it doenst matter as much since i dont need the cipher to do heavy damage. just burst out all the initial cone attacks and debuffs to hold aggro and he can just stand there with a shield till the cows come home while the range teammates fire away.

 

you guys think this will work?

[Gwadb]

I was interested in trying this as well, ciphers can get some interesting defensive abilities like psychovampiric shield and borrowed instinct, but I'm not sure if that makes the cipher viable with their subpar health and endurance as well as crippled focus gain.

[Vizjerie]

yeaaah. i guess i could give the character no intellect and put it in constitution

[Lasci]

Tanking in this game is possible by any class. Take high constitution, resolve, and perception. Wear fullplate and use a shield. Potentially dual wield hatchets?

 

The question is whether or not the Cipher would make for a good tank, and the answer is a definite no. It has decent starting deflection but comparatively poor endurance. None of a Cipher's abilities can target itself and the only one that provides an actual defensive buff to the Cipher needs to target an enemy and hit in order to give its bonus. To add to this, a Cipher shouldn't be wearing a shield or heavy armor -- there's no synergy with heavy armor its kit. You want to be doing fast attacks to build Focus, and wearing a shield and heavy armor does the exact opposite of this.

[Whosdriving]

it would be tough with out good gear but there is lots of items in the game that add deflection, resolve, or perception bonus. there are also a few items that add health,  it wouldn't be a build to try on hard but i could be fun to rp on normal or easy. another thing to remember is that food can add some really op buffs, that stack with spells, gear, and rest bonus.

[Hellraiser789]

Sounds kinda cool actually. Maybe I'll try that at some point....

[Dead Optimist]

Tanking in this game is possible by any class. Take high constitution, resolve, and perception. Wear fullplate and use a shield. Potentially dual wield hatchets?

 

The question is whether or not the Cipher would make for a good tank, and the answer is a definite no. It has decent starting deflection but comparatively poor endurance. None of a Cipher's abilities can target itself and the only one that provides an actual defensive buff to the Cipher needs to target an enemy and hit in order to give its bonus. To add to this, a Cipher shouldn't be wearing a shield or heavy armor -- there's no synergy with heavy armor its kit. You want to be doing fast attacks to build Focus, and wearing a shield and heavy armor does the exact opposite of this.

This is a slight derail, but I am interested in your perspective (and I do not have enough to say for a full new topic). What about a Wizard tank work? There are a few spells which really help (spirit shield, bulwark against the elements, mirror image), the classes basic attack (the 2 per encounter AoE) causes daze and there are a lot of CC options. So could a wizard, in your opinion, work as a full tank? If not, how viable do you think a wizard as a off-tank / CC hybrid is? (i.e. is it "doable" but worse than the alternative, or a true alternative)

[Hellraiser789]

 

Tanking in this game is possible by any class. Take high constitution, resolve, and perception. Wear fullplate and use a shield. Potentially dual wield hatchets?

 

The question is whether or not the Cipher would make for a good tank, and the answer is a definite no. It has decent starting deflection but comparatively poor endurance. None of a Cipher's abilities can target itself and the only one that provides an actual defensive buff to the Cipher needs to target an enemy and hit in order to give its bonus. To add to this, a Cipher shouldn't be wearing a shield or heavy armor -- there's no synergy with heavy armor its kit. You want to be doing fast attacks to build Focus, and wearing a shield and heavy armor does the exact opposite of this.

This is a slight derail, but I am interested in your perspective (and I do not have enough to say for a full new topic). What about a Wizard tank work? There are a few spells which really help (spirit shield, bulwark against the elements, mirror image), the classes basic attack (the 2 per encounter AoE) causes daze and there are a lot of CC options. So could a wizard, in your opinion, work as a full tank? If not, how viable do you think a wizard as a off-tank / CC hybrid is? (i.e. is it "doable" but worse than the alternative, or a true alternative)

 

 

Also curious - I love the concept of a spellsword but I'd rather not gimp myself too badly if I can help it.   Although a bit of a challenge isnt bad, especially if its still manageable for a normal difficulty game, but I am curious as to whether its feasible (or how useful such a build would be).

[Lasci]

 

 

Tanking in this game is possible by any class. Take high constitution, resolve, and perception. Wear fullplate and use a shield. Potentially dual wield hatchets?

 

The question is whether or not the Cipher would make for a good tank, and the answer is a definite no. It has decent starting deflection but comparatively poor endurance. None of a Cipher's abilities can target itself and the only one that provides an actual defensive buff to the Cipher needs to target an enemy and hit in order to give its bonus. To add to this, a Cipher shouldn't be wearing a shield or heavy armor -- there's no synergy with heavy armor its kit. You want to be doing fast attacks to build Focus, and wearing a shield and heavy armor does the exact opposite of this.

This is a slight derail, but I am interested in your perspective (and I do not have enough to say for a full new topic). What about a Wizard tank work? There are a few spells which really help (spirit shield, bulwark against the elements, mirror image), the classes basic attack (the 2 per encounter AoE) causes daze and there are a lot of CC options. So could a wizard, in your opinion, work as a full tank? If not, how viable do you think a wizard as a off-tank / CC hybrid is? (i.e. is it "doable" but worse than the alternative, or a true alternative)

 

 

Wizards have less endurance and half the starting deflection of a Cipher, but their kit is better suited to being close up. Their per encounter abilities require them to be close if not into the melee and arguably their most damaging ability, Fan of Flames, requires them to get close for good positioning. They also have a pretty stupid amount of self-buff spells. The problem is, buff spells have to be used in combat, so if you're wearing heavy armor and a shield on top of wanting to cast these spells, you're waiting forever to actually be viable in melee.

 

I haven't run the numbers, but you could probably make it work.

 

 

Also curious - I love the concept of a spellsword but I'd rather not gimp myself too badly if I can help it.   Although a bit of a challenge isnt bad, especially if its still manageable for a normal difficulty game, but I am curious as to whether its feasible (or how useful such a build would be).

 

 

If you're not playing on PotD, you could get away with a Cipher or a Wizard acting like a melee spellsword if that's what you're really going for. 

[MadDemiurg]

CIpher works pretty well on PotD in melee with pike/quarterstaff if you have an actual tank. If you want to actually tank the damage yourself, you can probably do it, but you won't be the best tank and you'll have to gimp yourself pretty hard in terms of dps and cc capabilities. Level 4 spells open some decent tanking options, but it takes a while to get there. If tanking, you'll probably have to focus on Per/Res/Int(for buff/debuff duration and to keep pressure off), focus gain would be mainly through draining whip + fast attacking weapon, not damage. You can't really dump dex or might completely though, you need 10 in both at the very least.

Edited April 2, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Hellraiser789]

Okay, cool, thanks for the info. I'll keep that in mind when I'm building classes. I mean, its a low-level campaign so I'm not expecting the OP that was the Kensai/Mage, and as a Wizard, i understand low-levels are NOT for melee-mages, just wondering if it was viable later in the game. Haven't really sat down and examined the Wizard spells yet, so wasn't sure if they had the spell capability for that or not. Thanks for being helpful! 

[revjwh]

On normal? Definitely.

 

I am playing a melee Cipher build: M 17 C 15 D 10 P 10 I 10 R 16 (I think, maybe 15). He is a Godlike Moon and wear Plate Armor and wields a Etoc (?sp).

 

I solo'd through Raedric's Keep and took Raedric out solo. I haven't gone past there yet..... so I don't know how he will perform in the nexxt part.

 

I use the Animat Horn as a summons. I use traps and scrolls and potions. No food really. I have Mechanics at 8 and Lore at 4 or 5 currently. I was level 4 when I killed Raedric and just hit level 5. I haven't been to Defiance Bay - so I don't know if I'm ahead of the level curve or on it......

 

I haven't had to spam reload a ton either. Careful tactics, traps and scrolls with the Animat for hard fights..... I use the mind blade spell alot (jumps to 5 targets) and the Anti-field that does corruption damage to everyone in it's path.....

 

I've cleared all the areas up to Defiance Bay and the Keep and have completed the first level of Cua Nua (or whatever its name is)......

 

I'm having a blast. The heal of the Moon Godlike helps a ton. I chose to make him the size of an Amuana (sp?) b/c he takes up a doorway for tactics

 

The 2-H which I have 'enchanted' to fine, 25% burn dmg often refills my focus with one hit and it isn't unusual to do 30-40 a hit......

 

Hope this helps. I also tried using him last night (as a break from soloing, with 3 NPCs: Eder, Aloth and Durance and it was actually harder b/c they kept gettting in the way of my mind spells b/c of poor pathfinding.....)