Summoned Creatures Durations need a nerf

[Bazy]

Problem: You can literally chain pull an entire dungeon with your party standing at the beginning and doing nothing while relying on your summoned creatures to go kill everything. All that's required is that you chain pull or keep a really weak enemy poking your tank to keep you in combat. 

 

 

Suggestions: Only be able to summon 1 creature per fight per character. 

 

Sidenote: It's sad that spiritshift lasts 10-15 seconds while chanter summons go forever...

 

Othersidenote: This would also help reign in the Overpoweredness of the "summon" items for non-chanters. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Bazy

[curi]

so if you get an enemy half dead with a wave of summons, then send the next wave, it'll still be half dead right? if enemies would heal up quick when you don't have vision of them, that would help prevent this kind of abuse too. (depending how deadly one wave of summons is. i only just got my chanter to level 6 a few minutes ago so i haven't even tried the wurms yet. and i haven't tested multiple chanter parties. the level 2 druid summon spell seems weak i noticed, not sure about the higher level druid ones though, or the level 4 mage one i saw on the wiki.)

 

another abusive thing i noticed you can do is put out as many priest seals as you want. the game limits you to one trap, but you can put tons of priest seals to prepare for a fight. kinda weird.

[Parsong]

also ranger pet stinks compared to most summons

[curi]

i think they should handle this like baldur's gate. summoned creatures cannot provide any map vision at all (and you can't click them to go fight at a location you haven't explored). i think that would be a nice way to fix the problem of risk-free exploring by running summons around, and fighting far-away monsters, etc

 

does that make sense to other people? i'd also be fine with limiting duration to like a minute. long but not infinite. but that would not solve the main problem of sending them around the map.

Edited April 3, 2015 by curi

[Zarkhes]

i think they should handle this like baldur's gate. summoned creatures cannot provide any map vision at all (and you can't click them to go fight at a location you haven't explored). i think that would be a nice way to fix the problem of risk-free exploring by running summons around, and fighting far-away monsters, etc

 

does that make sense to other people? i'd also be fine with limiting duration to like a minute. long but not infinite. but that would not solve the main problem of sending them around the map.

Please no, the micromanagement is fun element.The fact that you can choose target is why summons are so powerfull because you can focus your power on 1 target or tank with summons.

[curi]

 

i think they should handle this like baldur's gate. summoned creatures cannot provide any map vision at all (and you can't click them to go fight at a location you haven't explored). i think that would be a nice way to fix the problem of risk-free exploring by running summons around, and fighting far-away monsters, etc

 

does that make sense to other people? i'd also be fine with limiting duration to like a minute. long but not infinite. but that would not solve the main problem of sending them around the map.

Please no, the micromanagement is fun element.The fact that you can choose target is why summons are so powerfull because you can focus your power on 1 target or tank with summons.

 

 

i don't think you played baldur's gate much? you aren't understanding. you can micro control your summons. they just don't grant vision, so you can't use them away from the party (without using a scouting spell at least), you can only control them in the area where you have vision. but this way you can't use summons as scouts or send 6 summons to go fight while you sit at the dungeon entrance.

Edited April 3, 2015 by curi

[Zarkhes]

 

 

i think they should handle this like baldur's gate. summoned creatures cannot provide any map vision at all (and you can't click them to go fight at a location you haven't explored). i think that would be a nice way to fix the problem of risk-free exploring by running summons around, and fighting far-away monsters, etc

 

does that make sense to other people? i'd also be fine with limiting duration to like a minute. long but not infinite. but that would not solve the main problem of sending them around the map.

Please no, the micromanagement is fun element.The fact that you can choose target is why summons are so powerfull because you can focus your power on 1 target or tank with summons.

 

 

i don't think you played baldur's gate much? you aren't understanding. you can micro control your summons. they just don't grant vision, so you can't use them away from the party (without using a scouting spell at least), you can only control them in the area where you have vision. but this way you can't use summons as scouts or send 6 summons to go fight while you sit at the dungeon entrance.

 

Oh...was it icewind dale then?When they just run around you looking for targets?

[curi]

in bgee, you control your summons. dunno about IWD.

 

you can't send them off into the fog of war alone, because they have zero ability to see on their own. you need a party member or spell to see somewhere. then you can control summons like normal.

 

this would really help in PoE. just don't give summons any vision on their own, so they can't operate away from party members who give vision of an area.

 

i was really shocked when i saw PoE didn't work like bg, seems like a huge mistake to let summons go scout the map risk-free. they copied lots of other stuff from bg, so i don't get it.

Edited April 3, 2015 by curi

[Ohioastro]

This hurts chanters badly, and not for a significant reason at all. If you don't like summons don't use chanters, no?

[curi]

it's extremely OP now, chanters will still be good with these changes.

[Ohioastro]

Nonsense. There is a long time lag for summons, and at least now you can use other chants once the summon is up. Figurines are one per rest. And dragging mobs in to fight at the door sacrifices per encounter abilities, which is actually a handicap. I just don't see the problem that this is supposed to fix.

[curi]

i don't think you understand how summons work and can be abused. you're saying it's a non-problem because it's a non-problem given your playstyle. but balance issues depend on the best possible playstyle.

 

you get one weak enemy attacking your tank to stay in combat.

 

then you make unlimited chanter summons and clear the whole rest of the map with them, without risking any party members.

 

or you get in combat from maerwald fight, run away, make unlimited summons and clear the map.

 

THAT is the currently optimal sort of thing to do in this game on max difficulty, and it really ought to be changed.

Edited April 3, 2015 by curi

[Ceranai]

Nonsense. There is a long time lag for summons, and at least now you can use other chants once the summon is up. Figurines are one per rest. And dragging mobs in to fight at the door sacrifices per encounter abilities, which is actually a handicap. I just don't see the problem that this is supposed to fix.

 

If you dont see the problem you obviously havnt tried rolling 6 chanters all with summons, its probably the most broken build there is, kite for 12 seconds and then clear the entire dungeon without breaking a sweat because you literally have an unlimited supply of summons= an unlimited supply of hp, when you factor in how much damage summons do this is simply broken. The only fights that are even remotely challenging are fights in enclosed spaces and even then they are only challenging for 12 seconds, as long as you survive those 12 seconds its easy. Turn off auto attack and have one summon tanking some low dmg mobs hits and use the other 5 summons to clear the entire dungeon.

This hurts chanters badly, and not for a significant reason at all. If you don't like summons don't use chanters, no?

Its an exploit that needs to be fixed, the infinite HP pool of summons and the high damage of phantoms is balanced by the 12 seconds at the start of combat before you can cast a summon, by chain pulling the entire dungeon this bypasses this weakness and means a 6 summoner team can cheese their way to victory. I cleared raedrics keep with a level 2 chanter, 3 level 1 chanters a level 1 priest and a level one druid, and i wasnt even usng this trick. Summons are OP when they are working as intended, let along when they are expoilted

[Ohioastro]

Chanters can only do one summon at a time. So what you're guarding against is a very niche thing: mob that can't hurt a tank, sending chanter summons by themselves to fight things, and eventually profit. The cost is that a time limit on summons could really mess up long boss fights (like the final one).

 

Is there an actual demonstration that this is an issue anywhere? Or is this just hypothetical theory crafting?

 

More to the point, if someone wants to basically cheat in a single player game, what of it? They can use console commands too. It doesn't affect my game at all.

[Ceranai]

 

i don't think you understand how summons work and can be abused. you're saying it's a non-problem because it's a non-problem given your playstyle. but balance issues depend on the best possible playstyle.

 

you get one weak enemy attacking your tank to stay in combat.

 

then you make unlimited chanter summons and clear the whole rest of the map with them, without risking any party members.

 

or you get in combat from maerwald fight, run away, make unlimited summons and clear the map.

 

THAT is the currently optimal sort of thing to do in this game on max difficulty, and it really ought to be changed.

 

Exactly, the point isnt that summons are too powerful when played as intended its that you can cheese yor way to victory by stacking a team with mostly or all chanters, i mean intel does nothing for melee based chanters really so there is nothing to stop you rolling 6 chanters with 18 con 18 res and 18 per, they have a passive heal (not sure if it stacks or not) and so there is basically no way you can loose using this trick, it turns PoTD into easy mode

[Ceranai]

Chanters can only do one summon at a time. So what you're guarding against is a very niche thing: mob that can't hurt a tank, sending chanter summons by themselves to fight things, and eventually profit. The cost is that a time limit on summons could really mess up long boss fights (like the final one).

 

Is there an actual demonstration that this is an issue anywhere? Or is this just hypothetical theory crafting?

 

More to the point, if someone wants to basically cheat in a single player game, what of it? They can use console commands too. It doesn't affect my game at all.

I used to do it before i decided it was too game breaking, and its not a niche thing, you can do it on literally any map as long as you find a mob that doesnt hit that hard

[Ohioastro]

This sort of things ruins games for people who play normally.  I don't care, at all, that someone else somewhere can cheese their way to a win on a hard difficulty level.  I do care that a class built around summons doesn't get trashed to close a silly loophole in the name of "balance".

 

EDIT:  Sorry, I'm getting argumentative here.  I just dislike the MMO disease: grinding classes down because someone finds a loophole, and the designers then over-react, crippling what was once a fun things to do.  If summons poof when out of line of sight of players, for instance, it doesn't matter at all for normal play, and that would seem to solve whatever problem this is.  Also, regenerate when out of combat.  Neither thing breaks any normal thing that players do.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ohioastro

[PIP-Clownboy]

So many figurines and most of them are trivial to get. I stopped using them since they make an easy game even easier. 

[Ohioastro]

 

 

i don't think you understand how summons work and can be abused. you're saying it's a non-problem because it's a non-problem given your playstyle. but balance issues depend on the best possible playstyle.

 

you get one weak enemy attacking your tank to stay in combat.

 

then you make unlimited chanter summons and clear the whole rest of the map with them, without risking any party members.

 

or you get in combat from maerwald fight, run away, make unlimited summons and clear the map.

 

THAT is the currently optimal sort of thing to do in this game on max difficulty, and it really ought to be changed.

 

Exactly, the point isnt that summons are too powerful when played as intended its that you can cheese yor way to victory by stacking a team with mostly or all chanters, i mean intel does nothing for melee based chanters really so there is nothing to stop you rolling 6 chanters with 18 con 18 res and 18 per, they have a passive heal (not sure if it stacks or not) and so there is basically no way you can loose using this trick, it turns PoTD into easy mode

 

As far as I can tell (I ran a chanter tank main) the chants don't stack.  So an all chanter party would be seriously, seriously weak at high difficulties in boss fights.

[Ohioastro]

So many figurines and most of them are trivial to get. I stopped using them since they make an easy game even easier. 

 

And apparently the costs in stores for them are now sky high.  MMO disease again.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ohioastro

[Ceranai]

This sort of things ruins games for people who play normally.  I don't care, at all, that someone else somewhere can cheese their way to a win on a hard difficulty level.  I do care that a class built around summons doesn't get trashed to close a silly loophole in the name of "balance".

 

EDIT:  Sorry, I'm getting argumentative here.  I just dislike the MMO disease: grinding classes down because someone finds a loophole, and the designers then over-react, crippling what was once a fun things to do.  If summons poof when out of line of sight of players, for instance, it doesn't matter at all for normal play, and that would seem to solve whatever problem this is.  Also, regenerate when out of combat.  Neither thing breaks any normal thing that players do.

The vision suggestion would have absolutely no impact on people playing normally it would only stop people from abusing summons to cheese to victory.

[Ohioastro]

One summon per fight for a chanter would cripple the class, especially in long boss battles.  Really - it would make the class utter dead weight where it counted the most.

[Ceranai]

 

 

 

i don't think you understand how summons work and can be abused. you're saying it's a non-problem because it's a non-problem given your playstyle. but balance issues depend on the best possible playstyle.

 

you get one weak enemy attacking your tank to stay in combat.

 

then you make unlimited chanter summons and clear the whole rest of the map with them, without risking any party members.

 

or you get in combat from maerwald fight, run away, make unlimited summons and clear the map.

 

THAT is the currently optimal sort of thing to do in this game on max difficulty, and it really ought to be changed.

 

Exactly, the point isnt that summons are too powerful when played as intended its that you can cheese yor way to victory by stacking a team with mostly or all chanters, i mean intel does nothing for melee based chanters really so there is nothing to stop you rolling 6 chanters with 18 con 18 res and 18 per, they have a passive heal (not sure if it stacks or not) and so there is basically no way you can loose using this trick, it turns PoTD into easy mode

 

As far as I can tell (I ran a chanter tank main) the chants don't stack.  So an all chanter party would be seriously, seriously weak at high difficulties in boss fights.

 

 

You can run different chants, a 6 man chanter party would have buffs on reflexes, movement speed, aoe damage, fortitude buff, 0.9x on damage etc etc. As someone who has actually played with multiple chanters i can say from experience it is like turning easy mode on, and that is without this exploit.

 

So many figurines and most of them are trivial to get. I stopped using them since they make an easy game even easier. 

 

And apparently the costs in stores for them are now sky high.  MMO disease again.

 

This is a change i really disagree with, figurines in normal play are in no way worth 6000, they are life saving when soloing but it basically stops 99% of players from bothering with them. To be clear i don't suport changes targeted at the 1%, i just see obvious exploits that need fixed.

[Ceranai]

One summon per fight for a chanter would cripple the class, especially in long boss battles.  Really - it would make the class utter dead weight where it counted the most.

compare chanter summons to any other spell of equal or comparable power. How many spells are there out there that you can cast as many times as you want? the only class i can think of is monks and their spells cost them wounds, chanters are the only class with unlimited access to powerful spells (monks only have a finite amount of wounds before they die). Hell it would be like if rangers got a spell to revive their pet that has a 12 second cooldown, or if fighters got to cast their knockdown another 5 times, unlimited summons=unlimited health. 

 

Phantoms have 50 or so health, so its basically 50 free hp every 12 seconds, imagine if priests had a spamable heal like that.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ceranai

[Ohioastro]

Get  back to me when other classes are set up to cast one spell per encounter.  I get that you have a thing for crippling this class, and I'm confident that it won't happen, so I'm bowing out of this thread.  Carry on/