Druid Spiritform Balance

[Arctic]

Hi , I will mod this for myself but I wanted to ask what do you think about the spirit form.

 

For what i saw, when you shift you get:

6-10 Dr Armor

22-34 Dual Weapons (quite a lot of damage)

And a per rest hability

2 selectable talents that gives you 30->45 damage  (thats 2 talents for a slash weapon enchantment ... thats normaly 25 but you can find weapons with 50)

 

 

I think the per rest is from when spiritshift was per rest, but having spiritshift per encounter and the knowdown from the wolf 2 per rest seams .. weird .. i think it should be per encounter too.

 

The armor does not imporve with level or talents ... so great for lvl 1 but .. when you start geting armors with +2/4/6 dr  +3 dr againts something ... +2 stats ... second chance ...

 

The weapons the same ... static ... vs +4/8/12 acurazy 10-50% extra damage ....

 

As i said .. the lash .. 2 talents instead of enchantment ..

 

For myself i remove the 12 seconds duration and did it permanent and casteable out of combat. but thats my thing.

 

Away from that .. i think the spirit form needs to get at least  +2dr,+4 acuracy,+15% melee damage every 4 levels.

and the willstrike should be improved to be just 1 talent with the 45% couse 1 talent for one weapon enchantment feels bad

 

So .. ill try to mod it but as i said, i want to know what do you think about that.

 

 

Edit: Lol! even worse, spiritshift disables ALL your items, magic rings, even the item that improves spaceshifting O.o....

I was testing with a lvl 12 char.. for having the same stats after spiritshift you need:

+6DR,12Acuracy,15 will,ref,fort, 36 deflection, 2 all stats.  (still you will lose all your active item habilites and you will need to use the willstrike talent but .. well .. )

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[zedek]

12 second duration is ridiculous. This was a massive disappointment to me as a newcomer. The worst part is that they don't even tell you! There is nothing in the tooltip mentioning this pathetic duration, and then I wasted talents on wildstrike right out the gate. It wasn't until much later that I thought there was a bug that was knocking me out of spiritshift, and it was then that I found that this was *intentional*. Unbelievable. Hours of my time wasted based on a form that lasts 12 seconds, and can only be used once unless you waste even more talents into it.

 

If you make a melee druid, spiritshift is completely worthless, especially later in the game. Spiritshift completely gimps you in almost every way, yet I could forgive that if it didn't merely last 12 seconds. Other classes, particularly casting classes, have much more powerful defensive abilities that last much longer. So at best, it's a subpar defense mechanism for a caster druid, and at worst is a complete waste of time that imposes a handicap on your playing experience.

 

In short, Spiritshift is bad. It does not scale well at all, it has an absurdly short duration which is not indicated via tooltip, and all talents pertaining to it are a complete waste. Also, no, telling me that the form is temporary does not tell me that it only lasts 12 seconds. It tells me that it is temporary... which COULD mean that I only stay in that form for the duration of combat, and then shift back into a person.

 

Just make it last throughout the duration of combat. Surely they don't actually think this would be overpowered... this 12 second duration must be some sort of thoughtless oversight.

[zultor]

I have started to come around to this thinking.   My main is a druid and she was awesome early game but slowly has become less and less usable.   Since she is my main I can't swap her out.   

 

Spiritform should augment (more attack less defense or vice-versa) her gear not completely replace it.    

[Dongom]

I think Obsidian just out did the old IE games in trying to see how badly you can make a Shifting ability 

 

 

Bravo.

[TheBruce]

I was going to play a druid until I found out the spirit form duration was ridiculously short. i used to love going around as a werewolf in BG2.

[Tsuga C]

12 second duration is ridiculous. This was a massive disappointment to me as a newcomer. The worst part is that they don't even tell you! There is nothing in the tooltip mentioning this pathetic duration, and then I wasted talents on wildstrike right out the gate. It wasn't until much later that I thought there was a bug that was knocking me out of spiritshift, and it was then that I found that this was *intentional*. Unbelievable. Hours of my time wasted based on a form that lasts 12 seconds, and can only be used once unless you waste even more talents into it.

 

If you make a melee druid, spiritshift is completely worthless, especially later in the game. Spiritshift completely gimps you in almost every way, yet I could forgive that if it didn't merely last 12 seconds. Other classes, particularly casting classes, have much more powerful defensive abilities that last much longer. So at best, it's a subpar defense mechanism for a caster druid, and at worst is a complete waste of time that imposes a handicap on your playing experience.

 

In short, Spiritshift is bad. It does not scale well at all, it has an absurdly short duration which is not indicated via tooltip, and all talents pertaining to it are a complete waste. Also, no, telling me that the form is temporary does not tell me that it only lasts 12 seconds. It tells me that it is temporary... which COULD mean that I only stay in that form for the duration of combat, and then shift back into a person.

 

Just make it last throughout the duration of combat. Surely they don't actually think this would be overpowered... this 12 second duration must be some sort of thoughtless oversight.

One hopes that this has been duly noted by Obsidian and is slated for an update in the first or second patch. What's the point in a primary ability/talent/feat/skill/whatever that, if selected, renders the character less capable?

[Enoch]

I think it's fine.  You don't get to be the best damage-casting class and one of the better melee-damage classes at the same time.  Boo-hoo.

 

Shifting makes for a great early-game crutch, when your spells are few and relatively weak.  Later on, it's a nice situational ability to generate some extra DPS and close out low-threat fights quickly without expending any per-day resources.  Investing talents in it increases its useful life and effectiveness in those roles.  It's probably not an ideal use of a Talent, but it's not worthless either.  (The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking a wildstrike Talent.)

 

(Edit in italics.)

Edited April 1, 2015 by Enoch

[Tsuga C]

(The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking them.)

Did you mean that you're not missing much by avoiding them? How do they fall short?

[zultor]

I was going to play a druid until I found out the spirit form duration was ridiculously short. i used to love going around as a werewolf in BG2.

 

It really isn't that bad having it be a 12 sec duration especially in the early game.   Remember that there is so much more to a druid than spiritform.    Almost all the way through act 2 I would go into spiritform before contact with enemy and very rarely would I drop out before the battle was over.   Later when it was more common place it allows you to actually use other aspects of the class (your weapons, spells, etc).

 

The problem with the current implementation is that in the early game the spiritform is so powerful you focus on it and put your early talents, etc in stuff that helps it.    Then about half way through the game you realize that spiritform isn't all that anymore and you are stuck with a gimped character since you hardly use it anymore.   This problem has nothing to do with the duration of spiritform but the lack of it progressing in power as a normal character would.

[Enoch]

 

(The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking them.)

Did you mean that you're not missing much by avoiding them? How do they fall short?

 

Sorry, yes, my pronoun antecedent was unclear.  That last "them" was referring to the Wildstrike talents.  The +% bonuses to elemental damage Talents are probably the "best option" that you're missing out on by taking Wildstrike.  Nice to have, but not the kind of thing that really changes the way you fight. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Enoch

[Arctic]

i have the edited files to being able to cast it out of battle and no duration limit if you want them, used them for testing.

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/18/?tab=2&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Fpillarsofeternity%2Fajax%2Fmodfiles%2F%3Fid%3D18&pUp=1

 

I think its not ready yet but give it a few minutes ... (does not include the companion spirit shift, just the normal druid ones)

 

Just drop de uncompresed files in the Pillars of Eternity\PillarsOfEternity_Data\assetbundles\prefabs folder

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[DaxD]

I agree. Spirit form is ok for early levels, but useless later.

 

Luckily I find the Druid spells very useful so now I have a spell slinger with a pistol.

 

Would be nice if this was corrected though. The Spiritform needs to scale better and take in account the wearable item bonuses.

[Dongom]

I think it's fine.  You don't get to be the best damage-casting class and one of the better melee-damage classes at the same time.  Boo-hoo.

 

Shifting makes for a great early-game crutch, when your spells are few and relatively weak.  Later on, it's a nice situational ability to generate some extra DPS and close out low-threat fights quickly without expending any per-day resources.  Investing talents in it increases its useful life and effectiveness in those roles.  It's probably not an ideal use of a Talent, but it's not worthless either.  (The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking a wildstrike Talent.)

 

(Edit in italics.)

 

I think many people wanted something you can build for, rather than a early game crutch.

 

I like making viable shifters. Boo-hoo indeed.

[Bulshock]

Something that allows it to at least gain benefit from enchantments on gear you have equipped would be nice.  Either that or it needs to scale with level in order to justify having any talents in it.  I had been looking forward to making a shifting druid, but fortunately I found out about the poor scaling before putting talents into it.

[Enoch]

 

I think it's fine.  You don't get to be the best damage-casting class and one of the better melee-damage classes at the same time.  Boo-hoo.

 

Shifting makes for a great early-game crutch, when your spells are few and relatively weak.  Later on, it's a nice situational ability to generate some extra DPS and close out low-threat fights quickly without expending any per-day resources.  Investing talents in it increases its useful life and effectiveness in those roles.  It's probably not an ideal use of a Talent, but it's not worthless either.  (The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking a wildstrike Talent.)

 

(Edit in italics.)

 

I think many people wanted something you can build for, rather than a early game crutch.

 

I like making viable shifters. Boo-hoo indeed.

 

 

I suppose that's fair, but implementing such a change would require a pretty heavy corresponding nerf to the class's casting abilities.  It's a borderline-overpowered class as it is. 

 

Shifting being weak is less a "balance" issue and more a "I wish this apple had been a pear" issue.  In the meanwhile, if you want a furry and fragile damage-dealer, may I suggest a Wild Orlan Rogue or Monk?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Enoch

[Arctic]

 

 

I think it's fine.  You don't get to be the best damage-casting class and one of the better melee-damage classes at the same time.  Boo-hoo.

 

Shifting makes for a great early-game crutch, when your spells are few and relatively weak.  Later on, it's a nice situational ability to generate some extra DPS and close out low-threat fights quickly without expending any per-day resources.  Investing talents in it increases its useful life and effectiveness in those roles.  It's probably not an ideal use of a Talent, but it's not worthless either.  (The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking a wildstrike Talent.)

 

(Edit in italics.)

 

I think many people wanted something you can build for, rather than a early game crutch.

 

I like making viable shifters. Boo-hoo indeed.

 

 

I suppose that's fair, but implementing such a change would require a pretty heavy corresponding nerf to the class's casting abilities.  It's a borderline-overpowered class as it is. 

 

Shifting being weak is less a "balance" issue and more a "I wish this apple had been a pear" issue.  In the meanwhile, if you want a furry and fragile damage-dealer, may I suggest a Wild Orlan Rogue or Monk?

 

 

you can be ok in mele, or even good at melee, if you dont spirit shift. the fact that you lose so much power using an skill that should increase your power is the weird think.  Going with enchanted clothes(or full armor),2 swords and corrode lash is fine.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[Bulshock]

 

 

 

I think it's fine.  You don't get to be the best damage-casting class and one of the better melee-damage classes at the same time.  Boo-hoo.

 

Shifting makes for a great early-game crutch, when your spells are few and relatively weak.  Later on, it's a nice situational ability to generate some extra DPS and close out low-threat fights quickly without expending any per-day resources.  Investing talents in it increases its useful life and effectiveness in those roles.  It's probably not an ideal use of a Talent, but it's not worthless either.  (The other Druid-specific talents are such that you're not missing a whole lot by taking a wildstrike Talent.)

 

(Edit in italics.)

 

I think many people wanted something you can build for, rather than a early game crutch.

 

I like making viable shifters. Boo-hoo indeed.

 

 

I suppose that's fair, but implementing such a change would require a pretty heavy corresponding nerf to the class's casting abilities.  It's a borderline-overpowered class as it is. 

 

Shifting being weak is less a "balance" issue and more a "I wish this apple had been a pear" issue.  In the meanwhile, if you want a furry and fragile damage-dealer, may I suggest a Wild Orlan Rogue or Monk?

 

 

you can be ok in mele, or even good at melee, if you dont spirit shift. the fact that you lose so much power using an skill that should increase your power is the weird think.  Going with enchanted clothes(or full armor),2 swords and corrode lash is fine.

 

Simply allowing it to benefit from gear enchantments would go a long way to making it reasonable.  When using a core class ability that is melee focused makes you weaker in melee then there is something wrong.

[Arctic]

It seams my version has a bug with the stag, making permanent the +7 to all defenses even after you clear the shift (dont know if it was there before my edition).

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[Arctic]

Simply allowing it to benefit from gear enchantments would go a long way to making it reasonable.  When using a core class ability that is melee focused makes you weaker in melee then there is something wrong.

 

 

That's for how the "temporal equipment" works, it changes all of it, not just the ones marked for change, i reported it as a bug(for other reason) so i dont know if they will change it

 

 

If it was for me i will just add an improved version (-50%) of armored grace to the effect, and let your items work. (changing the weapons) and adding a +1 bonus to melee  accuracy and +3 % melee damage / lvl to make for the enchantment bonus as you progress in the game.

 

 Being able to cast it out of combat and not lose time is great too

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[Bulshock]

 

Simply allowing it to benefit from gear enchantments would go a long way to making it reasonable.  When using a core class ability that is melee focused makes you weaker in melee then there is something wrong.

 

 

That's for how the "temporal equipment" works, it changes all of it, not just the ones marked for change, i reported it as a bug(for other reason) so i dont know if they will change it

 

Oh?  If it's getting changed to that that will make me a happy druid.  I don't mind not getting other close combat benefits, after all druids are primarily casters, so even just that as a change will be nice.

[Faerunner]

 

I think it's fine.  You don't get to be the best damage-casting class and one of the better melee-damage classes at the same time.  Boo-hoo.

 

Shifting makes for a great early-game crutch, when your spells are few and relatively weak.  [snip]

 

I think many people wanted something you can build for, rather than a early game crutch.

 

I like making viable shifters. Boo-hoo indeed.

 

Agreed. I think many of us aren't disappointed with the Spiritshift because we wanted a "best of both worlds" powerful spellcaster and melee-damage class. A lot of us were interested in the Spiritshift for its own sake, and/or we wanted to play Druid just for the Spiritshift. Remember, there are other powerful damage-casting classes to choose from, (Wizard and Cipher come to mind) but Druid is the only class that lets us frequently turn into a giant werebeast. And yet we're forced to abandon the unique Druid ability after a few levels to be yet another full-time casting class?

 

I'd gladly sacrifice spellcasting to be able to build a viable Spiritshift. In fact, I'd be okay with players being given the option to build up the Spiritshift at the cost of building up decent spellcasting, to build up spellcasting at the cost of having a halfway decent Spiritshift (as it is now), or have a mediocre "middle of the road" by building up a bit of both.

 

As Dongom said, we're not disappointed with the Spiritshift because we wanted the best of both worlds, but we would like to choose between which of the two worlds we want instead of getting herded into one while staring longingly at the other.

[Arctic]

 

Oh?  If it's getting changed to that that will make me a happy druid.  I don't mind not getting other close combat benefits, after all druids are primarily casters, so even just that as a change will be nice.

 

 

Im not sure, the wild strike belt not working is getting solved. but i dont know if they will allow the other items to work.

 

For what im testing, secundary weapons and quick slot items are not getting overwrited. but you cant use them.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[Bulshock]

 

 

Oh?  If it's getting changed to that that will make me a happy druid.  I don't mind not getting other close combat benefits, after all druids are primarily casters, so even just that as a change will be nice.

 

 

Im not sure, the wild strike belt not working is getting solved. but i dont know if they will allow the other items to work.

 

For what im testing, secundary weapons and quick slot items are not getting overwrited. but you cant use them.

 

It would be nice.  In my view all that it really needs to have is the benefits from gear.  It doesn't need more, and other classes will still beat it in close combat as they only get the auto attacks and a once per rest ability.

[Arctic]

sure , the reason why i talked about the per level bonus, is couse your gear will have them (the enchantments) so if your claws do not you lose 1 acuracy per level vs not shifted. i doubt they can apply the bonus from your gear in there.

 

enchantments are +4, +8 +12

Edited April 1, 2015 by Arctic

[Lasci]

I have to admit, I was very disappointed when I found that the spiritshift was poorly documented and didn't describe that twelve second duration. But I think it's a fair balance considering how good it is in the early game and how the druid comes into her own as a very powerful spellcaster once she grows out of the form. I don't think it'd be reasonable for the spiritshift to get a buff and for the druid to keep her overall spellcasting prowess.