Memorials problem.

[Volourn]

Sawyer is not Obsidian. He is an employee. Obsidian put in. This FACT. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they hadn't CHOSEN to put it in. The fact that Sawyer is supportive of a group who loathe him and the company he works for is sad.

[Tsumetai]

 

The Twitter user referenced here that got offended by this is clearly insane: constant cries to "KillAllMen" while getting upset about a mediocre joke show what sort of person we're talking about here.

 

However, like Gromnir said a few pages back, if the joke were about a man who killed himself after accidentally sleeping with a black woman, because he is disgusted at the thought of sleeping with a black woman, this conversation wouldn't be happening. You'd all be talking about how offensive the joke is or how it "just isn't funny," but somehow it's a totally different conversation because you're all of the mind (currently) that it's okay to disregard the feelings of some groups but not others.

 

In other words, there are a bunch of inconsistent people here that clamor on about whatever it's cultually popular to clamor on about. That's on both sides of this issue. I don't think it should be taken out at the moment simply because it would be ridiculous to pander to every obviously insane complaint that enters your field of vision, but there's a bunch of people in this thread that would do well to examine their views on these things. Jumping on the SJW train or the anti-SJW train is equally stupid, why don't you try developing some well thought out views which are actually based on something other than reacting with whatever good-feeling impulse first crosses your mind?

This is fair enough, and perhaps salient to the issue, but I don't think the same limerick modified to include an Asian female killing herself because she was shamed by sleeping with a 'white' male should be restricted. It would be in poor taste, but worthy of this? How about a Catholic for sleeping with a Muslim? I haven't even seen the limerick, but I would have to say that your point, though well taken, doesn't really change my mind. I would like to think, as someone who doesn't grave offense at such things, that I would likewise not be offended at 'white men have small reproductive organs' jokes. Actually, since I have seen such jokes in cinema and in print and *not* been offended or angry, I guess I do more than think I wouldn't take grave offense. I'm certain I wouldn't.

 

 

There are no stereotypes about white men pretending to be Asian to get Asian women into bed, nor do white men face the threat of violence from Asian women who suspect them of passing themselves off as Asian to trick those women into bed. The idea that trans women are 'really' men who are 'tricking' people into thinking they're women for some nefarious purpose is fairly common, and trans women are frequently victims of violence because of it, sometimes killed.

 

Similarly, white men do not have to worry about being murdered because of a common belief that their reproductive organs are small. Trans women do have to worry about being murdered because of a common belief that they're 'really' men trying to trick other men into bed.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

This thread has caused my opinion of the intelligence of the average Obsidian "fan" on these forums to plummet.

 

Seriously, if you can't handle a developer not wanting a bigoted joke in their game, I'll provide you with a free tiny violin before the door hits you on your ass on the way out.

 

A developer? I thought it were people with hashtags like "killallmen" who thought that the joke is literally Hitler.

Don't forget banana nazi.

[Darji]

This thread has caused my opinion of the intelligence of the average Obsidian "fan" on these forums to plummet.

 

Seriously, if you can't handle a developer not wanting a bigoted joke in their game, I'll provide you with a free tiny violin before the door hits you on your ass on the way out.

Sure. But again  They already approved it so they never thought it was bigoted in any way.  I can handle a developer not wanting something in . But I can not handle people who believe they can change something that was created by an artist just because they don't like it and then put social pressure to get it removed. 

 

And Honestly I am sick of these people.  Be offended as much as you want but never force your morals on others. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darji

[Arouet]

Sawyer is not Obsidian. He is an employee. Obsidian put in. This FACT. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they hadn't CHOSEN to put it in. The fact that Sawyer is supportive of a group who loathe him and the company he works for is sad.

I hate Obsidian so much I'm going to go right back to playing the game now.

[Sakai]

Be offended as much as you want but never force your morals on others. 

Amen.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Sakai

[DrTuring]

 

 

 

How about the majority of people here who actually dont want it to be removed?

 

 

I figure the whole "it's Obsidian's choice" thing would have made clear who I place more capital on in the struggle you're painting. As someone in the field, I think the choice is left to the creator. Do I have a preference? Sure. But you can't talk about mobs in one sentence and then make an argument to the people right after. 

 

The argument is this.

 

Obsidian allowed it in. This was them choosing to let it in their game.

 

Now people are demanding it be pulled. AFTER Obsidian chose to let it in. That WAS their choice, was it not?

 

Actually, from Sawyer's tweet it looks like they woud have pulled it if they had caught it in time.

 

Sawyer is not all of Obsidian. He may not like it, but it's for the people in charge to decide. He even said he would "Bring it up to the Producers." Not that he would pull it.

[AlyxDinas]

The argument is this.

 

Obsidian allowed it in. This was them choosing to let it in their game.

 

Now people are demanding it be pulled. AFTER Obsidian chose to let it in. That WAS their choice, was it not?

 

 

Possibly. In which case they'll leave it in. But things do slip through the cracks that are not always commensurate with the ideals of your studio. Particularly in large projects with a lot of moving parts. Josh wants to look into it. If the answer from the producers is "Oh, we just had two people sit in a room and gave them two days to log all the data after the initial cull. I guess we missed this." then that's what happened, y'know? The realities of a dev cycle are complicated and Kickstart stuff only makes for more complications you can keep track of. I've been there and that was on projects not even close to the scale/funding of Pillars.

[frobisher]

The SJW bullies are.

They are not - though would really, really like to be. Or, if we're not into binary things, they are slowly getting there.

 

Luckily, it's slow enough so it's still possible and cost-effective to tell whatever Outrage Spreaders, in some kind words, to go to hell.

 

...

 

...unless someone would like to accomodate my grievances about PoE featuring not only killing a god (offending pretty much any monotheist with a concept alone),

but also cultural appropriation. I mean, killing a peasant who claims to be god's messenger *with fire*? That's Joan of Arc all over again, with a man stealing her identity. Damn it, Obsidian,

no one is getting fooled, this is clearly "misogyny by proxy".

[Silverstar]

But I can not handle people who believe they can change something that was created by an artist just because they don't like it and then put social pressure to get it removed. 

The Kickstarter backer who wrote that short poem must be swelling with pride now that people are considering him an "artist"

[Darji]

 

The argument is this.

 

Obsidian allowed it in. This was them choosing to let it in their game.

 

Now people are demanding it be pulled. AFTER Obsidian chose to let it in. That WAS their choice, was it not?

 

 

Possibly. In which case they'll leave it in. But things do slip through the cracks that are not always commensurate with the ideals of your studio. Particularly in large projects with a lot of moving parts. Josh wants to look into it. If the answer from the producers is "Oh, we just had two people sit in a room and gave them two days to log all the data after the initial cull. I guess we missed this." then that's what happened, y'know? The realities of a dev cycle are complicated and Kickstart stuff only makes for more complications you can keep track of. I've been there and that was on projects not even close to the scale/funding of Pillars.

 

Ok another  solution.

 

Let the backers decide through a poll if Obsidian feels pressure through social mobs. 

 

Or as the best solution: a Patch which gives you the option to disable these messages. Done Everyone should be happy. 

[Creslin321]

 

 

...

 

I don't really think the joke you mention about the black woman, and the one in the game are really analogous.

 

The one about the black woman hinges on the idea of racism.  The only reason someone would be very upset if they slept with a black person is if they are racist...and I think we all agree that it's not really acceptable to be racist.

 

But the one in the game is about sexual preference.  As far as I know, we are still able to have sexual preference without being some kind of "ist."  I mean, just because I don't want to have sex with men, doesn't make me homophobic.  And vice versa for a gay person.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that someone should always be free to have their own sexual preferences.  And I don't think we should ever get the point where we persecute anyone who isn't bisexual for being homo or hetero phobic.

 

They're only not analogous if you force them to not be. The guy in the original limerick doesn't necessarily hate men and the guy in my example doesn't necessarily hate black people; but the former does hate the idea of sleeping with a man and the latter does hate the idea of sleeping with a black woman. There's nothing wrong with not being attracted to men and there's nothing wrong with not being attracted to black women in my opinion.

 

 

Yes, but as a straight man, to hate the idea of sleeping with a black woman specifically, you have to be racist.

 

To hate to idea of sleeping with a man, you need only be heterosexual.

 

My point is that there's nothing inherently wrong with being heterosexual, there is something inherently wrong with being racist.  This is why those jokes are fundamentally different.

 

Also, I agree that there is nothing wrong with not being attracted to a person based on race or whatever.  But the situation presented here is assuming that the person already slept with the black woman, and the only way they would be all upset about it after the fact (at least that I can see) is if they are racist.

[DrTuring]

 

The argument is this.

 

Obsidian allowed it in. This was them choosing to let it in their game.

 

Now people are demanding it be pulled. AFTER Obsidian chose to let it in. That WAS their choice, was it not?

 

 

Possibly. In which case they'll leave it in. But things do slip through the cracks that are not always commensurate with the ideals of your studio. Particularly in large projects with a lot of moving parts. Josh wants to look into it. If the answer from the producers is "Oh, we just had two people sit in a room and gave them two days to log all the data after the initial cull. I guess we missed this." then that's what happened, y'know? The realities of a dev cycle are complicated and Kickstart stuff only makes for more complications you can keep track of. I've been there and that was on projects not even close to the scale/funding of Pillars.

Sure. It is their choice in the end, and it's always possible it slipped through. I just think that it makes more sense to leave it in, as opposed to take it out, of only because taking it out was promted by an outside group, not Obsidian themselves.

 

Plus, it's just a refrence to The Crying Game anyways. everyone forgot that.

[Arouet]

And if they agree with him? What then? Are you going to demand your money back? Start a petition? Boycott all of Obsidian's products from here on? Because they did something with their game you didn't agree with?

 

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

Am I a dirty outsider because I think pulling it's a good idea? Even if I backed the KS the first day it came out? Obviously yes, because you don't agree with it.

[Darji]

 

But I can not handle people who believe they can change something that was created by an artist just because they don't like it and then put social pressure to get it removed. 

The Kickstarter backer who wrote that short poem must be swelling with pride now that people are considering him an "artist"

 

I said before everything created by a human being is for me art. Its not high art or quality but that is not whats art about. Art is something  a human being created with his own mind/hands etc. No matter the quality. 

[Cantousent]

There are no stereotypes about white men pretending to be Asian to get Asian women into bed, nor do white men face the threat of violence from Asian women who suspect them of passing themselves off as Asian to trick those women into bed. The idea that trans women are 'really' men who are 'tricking' people into thinking they're women for some nefarious purpose is fairly common, and trans women are frequently victims of violence because of it, sometimes killed.

I don't want to get into the age old dispute over who has more claim to victimhood. In that case, even the winner is a clear loser. I will, however, say that there are places where a white male sleeping with... well... any of the non-white population will be at risk. The non-white member of the population is similarly at risk. We can take it to the extreme and posit that the limerick in some convoluted way advocates killing transgender people because of an idea of transgender trickery, but I nevertheless refuse to take it to that extreme. To be clear, because someone *can* take the idea to the extreme does not mean the idea is extreme in and of itself. ...And, as I'm sure at least a few people have pointed out already, the hue and cry over this issue has engendered more animosity than ignoring the limerick in question would ever have accomplished even assuming that was its intent, which I likewise don't take for granted.

 

BTW: I have known white guys who've had the crap beat out of them for dating local women. In fact, I have lived where such things have happened.

[GrinningReaper659]

 

The Twitter user referenced here that got offended by this is clearly insane: constant cries to "KillAllMen" while getting upset about a mediocre joke show what sort of person we're talking about here.

 

However, like Gromnir said a few pages back, if the joke were about a man who killed himself after accidentally sleeping with a black woman, because he is disgusted at the thought of sleeping with a black woman, this conversation wouldn't be happening. You'd all be talking about how offensive the joke is or how it "just isn't funny," but somehow it's a totally different conversation because you're all of the mind (currently) that it's okay to disregard the feelings of some groups but not others.

 

In other words, there are a bunch of inconsistent people here that clamor on about whatever it's cultually popular to clamor on about. That's on both sides of this issue. I don't think it should be taken out at the moment simply because it would be ridiculous to pander to every obviously insane complaint that enters your field of vision, but there's a bunch of people in this thread that would do well to examine their views on these things. Jumping on the SJW train or the anti-SJW train is equally stupid, why don't you try developing some well thought out views which are actually based on something other than reacting with whatever good-feeling impulse first crosses your mind?

This is fair enough, and perhaps salient to the issue, but I don't think the same limerick modified to include an Asian female killing herself because she was shamed by sleeping with a 'white' male should be restricted. It would be in poor taste, but worthy of this? How about a Catholic for sleeping with a Muslim? I haven't even seen the limerick, but I would have to say that your point, though well taken, doesn't really change my mind. I would like to think, as someone who doesn't grave offense at such things, that I would likewise not be offended at 'white men have small reproductive organs' jokes. Actually, since I have seen such jokes in cinema and in print and *not* been offended or angry, I guess I do more than think I wouldn't take grave offense. I'm certain I wouldn't.

 

 

Well, to be fair, this whole issue is framed around Obsidian being mindful of the sensitivites of others. I can't imagine myself being offended by any joke. Some are clearly in poor taste and others are often not too funny, but I don't think that comedy should be restricted by the sensitivities of others in a general sense. In this specific instance, however, we're discussing a specific company's product. What we're talking about here is people who want Obsidian to be sensitive to a certain group and people who don't want them to. If the "anti-SJW" folks in this thread will promote jokes which are insensitive to one group and protest jokes which are equally insensitive to another group, then they're being inconsistent no matter how you look at it.

 

As for whether or not Obsidian should pull this, that's a business decision. I don't think it was intended as a trans issue in the first place, but rather a joke about an idiot who got drunk and slept with another guy and upon discovering this, killed himself. So, some guy who killed himself over sleeping with another man, not necessarily a biological man who self identifies as a woman. Does it offend me? Absolutely not. Could it offend some overly sensitive people? Maybe.

 

I think it would be pretty stupid to pull it personally, but it's not my call. As long as we're comfortable with them crafting their content based on cultural sensitivities regarding race, religion, etc., then we don't have much ground to stand on when we try to arbitrarily pick and choose which sensitivities they shouldn't be mindful of.

[DrTuring]

 

Or as the best solution: a Patch which gives you the option to disable these messages. Done Everyone should be happy. 

I actually agree with this idea. It would satisfy everyone.

[AlyxDinas]

Ok another  solution.

 

Let the backers decide through a poll if Obsidian feels pressure through social mobs. 

 

Or as the best solution: a Patch which gives you the option to disable these messages. Done Everyone should be happy. 

 

 

Second solution is better but flawed. The first isn't smart, business wise. The product's out. It "belongs" to more than just the backers now. (Although, really it belongs to no one but Obsidian.)

[Tsumetai]

 

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

Yes it is. If you really believe that censorship  can only be enforced by the Government you really should wake up from your utopia world you live in. 

 

 

 

 

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

 

WTF kinda nonsense is this? None of this would be considered if Twitter cry babies hadn't started a campaign for self censorship. This is what their goal is. Take out the stuff we don't like. That's their goal. How in the hell is that not censorship? 

 

 

 

 

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

 

This certainly is a censorship issue. It may not be, say, a first amendment violation, and nothing illegal is going on, but it's still a discussion of censorship.

 

 

 

"This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one."

 

Yes, it is.  Obsidian chose to include something in the game and now SJW bullies are attacking them, shaming them, threatening them with murder in order to censor their work that they chose to put in. If Obsidian takes it out now it's simply giving in to bullies. PERIOD.

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world, here's what's actually happening!

 1) Obsidian exercised their free speech rights in publishing the game.

 2) Other people exercised their free speech rights in objecting to some content.

 3) Obsidian will now exercise their free speech rights by either leaving the game as is, or by changing it.

 

See how that works?

[Arouet]

BUT IF THEY DON'T AGREE WITH IT, THAT MEANS IT HAS TO BE CENSORSHIP!

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arouet

[deuxhero]

 

But I can not handle people who believe they can change something that was created by an artist just because they don't like it and then put social pressure to get it removed. 

The Kickstarter backer who wrote that short poem must be swelling with pride now that people are considering him an "artist"

 

 

There's good art, bad art (like the stuff purchased with tax money to decorate government buildings) and even art by Hitler (The book was a piece of ****, but the paintings are absolutely better than the stuff my tax money gets used for!)!

 

"Art" was never some seal of quality or minimum standard you have to meet to be protected, it's simply any work produced for entertainment instead of "practical" value. Free speech, the inalienable right that all human beings are endowed by their creator with, is universal and exists to protect unpopular works (popular ones require no protection).

Edited March 29, 2015 by deuxhero

[Darji]

And if they agree with him? What then? Are you going to demand your money back? Start a petition? Boycott all of Obsidian's products from here on? Because they did something with their game you didn't agree with?

 

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

Am I a dirty outsider because I think pulling it's a good idea? Even if I backed the KS the first day it came out? Obviously yes, because you don't agree with it.

Yes Then I want my money back and they can delete my game from steam or disable my key. I will never tolerate censorship I never did or will. Since I live in Germany Censorship is a very serious topic for me since I often have to suffer from it in terms of video games. 

[Starkmoon]

Oh please. It is a limerick, a bawdy, old fashioned joke and entirely fitting within the lore of PoE. 

 

In no way shape or form should this be altered.  Trying to force the entire world to conform to your narrow, constrictive definition of non-offensive is idiotic. 

 

I find this kind of wailing and gnashing of teeth to be annoying and borderline offensive... does this mean I have the right to demand your posts be edited by the mods? Do I get the right to tell you to stop posting because I find your content offensive? Of course not, I should rightly be told to grow a thicker skin, cry myself a river and get over it. 

 

Is it a great joke... no, not really. Id it a joke I would make.... probably not. Am I now going to retweet the image of the joke as far and wide as I can? Yes actually, because when someone tries to silence and censor art or comedy they should be mocked and the thing in question should be disseminated to as many eyes as possible. 

 

The whole world can never be free of offense to everyone. Someone, somewhere will do something, sometime to offend someone.... get the eff over it.

[Ausir]

I'd say this should be pulled myself. The backer can always be asked to submit a substitute text or be refunded.