Level Cap

[Ceranai]

 

 

 

 

You are obviously not playing on PoTD. Come back when you do. Bloody casuals complaining the game is too easy lol

[Xifortis]

It's a bit of a disappointed they didn't manage to spread out the content that well exp wise. Other games like this didn't have this issue as much.

[Hatred]

 

 "I like leveling up". WTF is this. Is this what Pillars of Eternity is about. Catering to Dragon Age Casuals. Why the hell even make this game. Did Obsidian make this game so that A:they wouldn't shut down or B: To give those of us who liked BG and IWD something new to play after us all waiting for so long. 

 I know who paid for the game kid. Was the diehard IE fans. So go back to Skyrim or Dragon Age or whatever retarded easymode dumbed down piece of horse **** game you came from. Even better why don't you go and buy a ****ing Xbox. You certainly smell like an XBoner.

 

 Edit: sadly I probably will be reduced to capping my own level in order to actually have a game to play. Since hitting around level 7 this game has turned to ash in my mouth. I went from excitedly doing everything and reading everything to caring about nothing and feeling like I was Playing Pillars of Dragonage.

I probably have a longer history of rpg gaming than you will ever have. So quit with the tantrum I'm not your two cent friend.

 

Your history of being interested in Pillars of Eternity stretches all the way to march 30th 2015. Nice history there.

 

Edit : I am not sure how age or who got into RPG's first is of any relevance but I first got into RPG's in about 1994 when I was 13 years old. Shining Force on the megadrive was my introduction to the genre FYI.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hatred

[Hatred]

 

 

 

 

 

You are obviously not playing on PoTD. Come back when you do. Bloody casuals complaining the game is too easy lol

 

 Yeah stuff me for wanting hard to be hard right. 

[Hatred]

Guys, you are not rly being constructive here... But here let me jump onto the bandwagon.

 

Obsidian made a game the way they belived was right and no amount of ranting is going to change that. Atm I'm playing on hard (lvl 6) so far I ran into some rly easy encounters, and some that handed me my arse on a plate. For all who claim hard is too easy, yea you might be right, but then try playing on PoTD. Belive me I tried and decided I would rather finish a game on hard, so I can figure out how stuff works.

 

For example my lvl 2 party on hard, had very few issues making it's way to Madwran on hard. It was a challenge but not impossible. On PoTD the same party couldn't even clr the first grp of shadows in the cortyard... after 10 retries... +50% stat buff on mobs is huge. I'm sure

if you hand craft a party of 6 player characters it gets easier, that's why I don't do it for my 1st playtrough.

 

 

Now, on the topic of ppl "demanding" more challenging experience... POE IS A PC GAME!!! Or did you all forget that? That means that in a week from now someone is going to make A MOD, a mod that will do exactly what you want!

If you ask me Obsidian did a damn fine job in trying to please many of the backers and original IE games fans. They put in numerous settings (and they rly could have just left them out) like 4 diff settings, expert mode and path of iron. That speaks volumes in my book, as I have yet to find an unmodded game that gives you all those options...

 

There is no sense in asking Obsidian to create a custom diff setting in order to please ppl that have special requests, when A 3rd PARTY MOD can do exactly that...

 

On the topic of BG2 and IWD2 difficulty... They were not harder than PoE, at least not by much... IWD2 had hearth of fury diff and yes that was pretty damn hard untill you figure out the breakpoints in the mechanic...Then it was cakewalk. For BG2 soloing Demogorgon with almost any class is proof enough that once you figured out the system, diff plumets trough the floor... So what did I do after that in order to make my latest BG2 experience new and challenging? I downloaded the BigWorld mod offcourse, and picked the options that custom tailored that playthrough exactly as I wanted.

 

So plz, play the game, up the diff to PoTD, if even that isn't enough for you, turn on path of iron. And if you still aren't satisfied, just find a mod that works for you... Just plz... stop whining allready...

 So a week from now someone will be making a mod eh ? Please direct me to the mod which fixes the combat difficulty of Dragon Age: Origins. Its six years old now so the mod should be out right ? Well no. No such mod exists. Someone did start making one onetime but last I checked no progress there. 

 So do we have any reason to expect combat mods for the game? No. Not really. PotD is a pretty cheap and crappy form of difficulty. Lets throw a stupid amount of enemies at you and then give them really high stats in certain areas which completey screw the combat balance in terms of what does and does not work. Heck the maps are not even roomy enough and the AI isnt smart enough to make PotD all that viable. Even on hard there are bottleneck issues.

 I am running through the game tanking with itumaak and going afk and letting auto attack resolve the fights. You cannot do that in BG2 and IWD2.

 Expecting the combat to have some kind of challenge and the progression to be meaningful is unreasonable I guess.

[Edvin]

Please stop and listen to yourself, you are acting like every single person will be playing the way you do. 

Not every Player will be sneaking and unlocking every lock, find every quest do every single little thing that gives them that 1 extra exp. A game developer whom has a plan for your character that you created and reached level 12 to be imported into their sequel can not have a character that cheese the game by Soloing and gaining the bonus exp boost that probably gets you to level 15, therefore bypassing 3 levels of awesome new spells that you will get, new stats, new attributes that they might possibly put in their sequel. And then have Players like you , posting threats on how come their new game is so easy even on Hard or Path of the damned, because I am level 15 and I cheesed my way there but its not my fault, its the developers because you allow it to happen. 

 

Having a level cap of 12 allows everyone to start at the same point once the Sequel comes out.

 

If you still don't understand, even with finite EXP available, not everyone will get all the Exp available, some people who played the game blind, at best they might only accumulate 75% of the ExP available. Then are you saying that by not exploring everything the Gamer should be punished?? Should all gamers play the game the same way, do I HAVE to explore everything , everywhere, who dictated that I have to explore everything everywhere to experience the game I bought like everyone else.  Game developers have to assume that the majority will reach 75% , for those that reaches above it, they are more prepared for the fights, they have all the tools available for future encounters compared to those that isn't, but aren't punished other than having the fights lasts longer. 

 

No, you have to stop and listen to yourself. What exactly would you like?

Game where you can easily complete main storyline without doing anything else?

 

Is final Boss too hard? Pick yours lazy ass, do more side quests and come back later.

Every at least a little reasonable RPG had this system. Moreover, exploring and doing all side quests should be rewarding.

PoE is not a game that should be complete in a few hours, so you can not measured by the same standards players who plays ten hours a players who plays fifty hours.

[Hatred]

 

Please stop and listen to yourself, you are acting like every single person will be playing the way you do. 

Not every Player will be sneaking and unlocking every lock, find every quest do every single little thing that gives them that 1 extra exp. A game developer whom has a plan for your character that you created and reached level 12 to be imported into their sequel can not have a character that cheese the game by Soloing and gaining the bonus exp boost that probably gets you to level 15, therefore bypassing 3 levels of awesome new spells that you will get, new stats, new attributes that they might possibly put in their sequel. And then have Players like you , posting threats on how come their new game is so easy even on Hard or Path of the damned, because I am level 15 and I cheesed my way there but its not my fault, its the developers because you allow it to happen. 

 

Having a level cap of 12 allows everyone to start at the same point once the Sequel comes out.

 

If you still don't understand, even with finite EXP available, not everyone will get all the Exp available, some people who played the game blind, at best they might only accumulate 75% of the ExP available. Then are you saying that by not exploring everything the Gamer should be punished?? Should all gamers play the game the same way, do I HAVE to explore everything , everywhere, who dictated that I have to explore everything everywhere to experience the game I bought like everyone else.  Game developers have to assume that the majority will reach 75% , for those that reaches above it, they are more prepared for the fights, they have all the tools available for future encounters compared to those that isn't, but aren't punished other than having the fights lasts longer. 

 

No, you have to stop and listen to yourself. What exactly would you like?

Game where you can easily complete main storyline without doing anything else?

 

Is final Boss too hard? Pick yours lazy ass, do more side quests and come back later.

Every at least a little reasonable RPG had this system. Moreover, exploring and doing all side quests should be rewarding.

PoE is not a game that should be complete in a few hours, so you can not measured by the same standards players who plays ten hours a players who plays fifty hours.

 

I am glad at least some people want this game to be an experience that feels at least a little bit like the old IE games. Reading these forums could almost convince me that no one cares.

[Trauma_Hound]

Ahh, leveling up, something that has been bastardized for those candy asses who always need to feel rewarded with something. I'd much rather see level ups be a harrowing experience and a grueling task to even achieve but make each level up significant. Even in Baldur's Gate where leveling up took millions of experience and quite a long time once you hit later levels was still too much. Old School D&D did it right, a level five is down right scary, a level 10 you'd probably think you came across a God if you were a commoner. 

 

With that said, I would love to see leveling proved to be much more of a challenge yet also prove to be more substantial.

[Kromzor]

I think what OP meant to type was...

Developer Meeting:  "Hey guys did anyone finish that XP chart so we can track, compare, and predict player XP gains based on various playstyles so we can try to avoid people rapidly out leveling the content and reaching max lv halfway through the game?"

"Ain't nobody got time for that!  :DDD"

"Ayyy lmao!"

 

But in all seriousness, this always happens in every RPG.  Which is why you'd think by now it would be standard for these games to come with a 10-100% XP slider option.  It would make things so much better for so many people who love the game, love the content, but also want to keep the challenge entact throughout the entire course of the game.

 

Plus its just silly to imagine that killing 1,000,000 Kobolds will make you powerful enough to slay a Dragon.

[lord_wc]

 

 

 "I like leveling up". WTF is this. Is this what Pillars of Eternity is about. Catering to Dragon Age Casuals. Why the hell even make this game. Did Obsidian make this game so that A:they wouldn't shut down or B: To give those of us who liked BG and IWD something new to play after us all waiting for so long. 

 I know who paid for the game kid. Was the diehard IE fans. So go back to Skyrim or Dragon Age or whatever retarded easymode dumbed down piece of horse **** game you came from. Even better why don't you go and buy a ****ing Xbox. You certainly smell like an XBoner.

 

 Edit: sadly I probably will be reduced to capping my own level in order to actually have a game to play. Since hitting around level 7 this game has turned to ash in my mouth. I went from excitedly doing everything and reading everything to caring about nothing and feeling like I was Playing Pillars of Dragonage.

I probably have a longer history of rpg gaming than you will ever have. So quit with the tantrum I'm not your two cent friend.

 

Your history of being interested in Pillars of Eternity stretches all the way to march 30th 2015. Nice history there.

 

Edit : I am not sure how age or who got into RPG's first is of any relevance but I first got into RPG's in about 1994 when I was 13 years old. Shining Force on the megadrive was my introduction to the genre FYI.

 

So, according to you interest in a game means registering to its forums to post?

The main reason I dislike registering to forums to post is people like you. Who play on easy and then think they know everything about the game and everyone else is just an idiot. If you want challenge, play PotD, if you dislike leveling up, don't press the level up button, it's easy. None of this requires to mess up other people's fun. Damn casual elitists never understand the difference between difficulty and gameplay.

 

I got Bard's Tale on release. That was my first RPG and I think I played every major release ever since then.

 

 

Even in Baldur's Gate where leveling up took millions of experience and quite a long time once you hit later levels was still too much

I take it you never played BG then. Leveling up was rather fast in both installments. If you talk about 'millions of xp' you are talking about BG2 then. Leveling up there is about twice as fast there than in PoE, what are you talking about?

Edited April 4, 2015 by lord_wc

[Epsilon Rose]

I think what OP meant to type was...

Developer Meeting:  "Hey guys did anyone finish that XP chart so we can track, compare, and predict player XP gains based on various playstyles so we can try to avoid people rapidly out leveling the content and reaching max lv halfway through the game?"

"Ain't nobody got time for that!  :DDD"

"Ayyy lmao!"

 

But in all seriousness, this always happens in every RPG.  Which is why you'd think by now it would be standard for these games to come with a 10-100% XP slider option.  It would make things so much better for so many people who love the game, love the content, but also want to keep the challenge entact throughout the entire course of the game.

 

Plus its just silly to imagine that killing 1,000,000 Kobolds will make you powerful enough to slay a Dragon.

I don't think it was a problem in dark souls and even if you can hit max level in many RPGs, it normally happens much closer to the final boss.

[Hatred]

 

 

 

 "I like leveling up". WTF is this. Is this what Pillars of Eternity is about. Catering to Dragon Age Casuals. Why the hell even make this game. Did Obsidian make this game so that A:they wouldn't shut down or B: To give those of us who liked BG and IWD something new to play after us all waiting for so long. 

 I know who paid for the game kid. Was the diehard IE fans. So go back to Skyrim or Dragon Age or whatever retarded easymode dumbed down piece of horse **** game you came from. Even better why don't you go and buy a ****ing Xbox. You certainly smell like an XBoner.

 

 Edit: sadly I probably will be reduced to capping my own level in order to actually have a game to play. Since hitting around level 7 this game has turned to ash in my mouth. I went from excitedly doing everything and reading everything to caring about nothing and feeling like I was Playing Pillars of Dragonage.

I probably have a longer history of rpg gaming than you will ever have. So quit with the tantrum I'm not your two cent friend.

 

Your history of being interested in Pillars of Eternity stretches all the way to march 30th 2015. Nice history there.

 

Edit : I am not sure how age or who got into RPG's first is of any relevance but I first got into RPG's in about 1994 when I was 13 years old. Shining Force on the megadrive was my introduction to the genre FYI.

 

So, according to you interest in a game means registering to its forums to post?

The main reason I dislike registering to forums to post is people like you. Who play on easy and then think they know everything about the game and everyone else is just an idiot. If you want challenge, play PotD, if you dislike leveling up, don't press the level up button, it's easy. None of this requires to mess up other people's fun. Damn casual elitists never understand the difference between difficulty and gameplay.

 

I got Bard's Tale on release. That was my first RPG and I think I played every major release ever since then.

 

 

Even in Baldur's Gate where leveling up took millions of experience and quite a long time once you hit later levels was still too much

I take it you never played BG then. Leveling up was rather fast in both installments. If you talk about 'millions of xp' you are talking about BG2 then. Leveling up there is about twice as fast there than in PoE, what are you talking about?

 

What the **** are you talking about. Seriously. I'm playing on hard and you are a piece of **** who makes no sense at all. You dont register on forums to post. You do it to follow the development. **** you.

 

edit : since 2004 so 10 years less time than I have up my sleeve. Nice job bringing up time then kid. You are at a 10 year disadvantage in terms of time spent playing 'RPGs' (in other words you missed all of them since bugger all RPGs even been made in the last 10 years worth spitting on)  and a 2 year disadvantage on following this game with interest. 

 

Casual is all that you are. 

 

I edited out 'filth' even though 'casual' is clearly the worse insult  Avoid personal references if at all possible. ~ Gorgon. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Gorgon

[Smorensky]

Then make a mod your self, or go to nexus forums and request one. If what you are saying is such a big issue there will be other ppl thinking the same way as you do and a mod will be created...

 

And as for what you said about DA: Origins... It is amazing what 2 mins off google search can accomplish:

http://www.nexusmods.com/dragonage/mods/1729/?

[Hatred]

Then make a mod your self, or go to nexus forums and request one. If what you are saying is such a big issue there will be other ppl thinking the same way as you do and a mod will be created...

 

And as for what you said about DA: Origins... It is amazing what 2 mins off google search can accomplish:

http://www.nexusmods.com/dragonage/mods/1729/?

 No what is amazing is how you don't notice that this mod is unfinished and abandoned four years ago. Nice try though.

Got any new ways to display your failure at reading and comprehension ?

 Edit: also quite funny that this mod has one big problem. It gets easier rather than harder as the game goes on. It is what stopped this mod from working. I feel like it may very well make it harder for people to mod Pillars too.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hatred

[Agiel]

In the first Baldur's Gate you ended the game at around level 8-10, depending on your class choice, which meant your spell selection was fairly... modest in respect to the whole repertoire of spells in the D&D ruleset. I think it possible that if Obsidian comes around to making a PoE II and gives it an expansion, at the end of that your wizard will be rocking spells that summons an 10 megaton SS-18 Satan ICBM onto your foes.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Agiel

[Smorensky]

 

Then make a mod your self, or go to nexus forums and request one. If what you are saying is such a big issue there will be other ppl thinking the same way as you do and a mod will be created...

 

And as for what you said about DA: Origins... It is amazing what 2 mins off google search can accomplish:

http://www.nexusmods.com/dragonage/mods/1729/?

 No what is amazing is how you don't notice that this mod is unfinished and abandoned four years ago. Nice try though.

Got any new ways to display your failure at reading and comprehension ?

 Edit: also quite funny that this mod has one big problem. It gets easier rather than harder as the game goes on. It is what stopped this mod from working. I feel like it may very well make it harder for people to mod Pillars too.

 

 

Obviously this bothers you a great deal, so why not take modding into your own hands? If the mod author discontinued his work, why don't you pick it up your self? Same goes for PoE. If no one is making a mod that you want, make one your self it is that simple...

 

As far as my failure at reading and comprehension goes, the mod files are still there. You could download them and continue the work your self, as a matter of fact you could start working on a mod for PoE right now.

 

Unfortunately you are way too busy playing your favourite game: "Pillars Of Eternity - Flame Wars", The Forum Troll DLC...

 

Well that's it from me I guess, gonna go back to playing this awsome game and posting in threads that are slightly less poluted and way less personal for ppl who post there.

[Hatred]

 

 

Then make a mod your self, or go to nexus forums and request one. If what you are saying is such a big issue there will be other ppl thinking the same way as you do and a mod will be created...

 

And as for what you said about DA: Origins... It is amazing what 2 mins off google search can accomplish:

http://www.nexusmods.com/dragonage/mods/1729/?

 No what is amazing is how you don't notice that this mod is unfinished and abandoned four years ago. Nice try though.

Got any new ways to display your failure at reading and comprehension ?

 Edit: also quite funny that this mod has one big problem. It gets easier rather than harder as the game goes on. It is what stopped this mod from working. I feel like it may very well make it harder for people to mod Pillars too.

 

 

Obviously this bothers you a great deal, so why not take modding into your own hands? If the mod author discontinued his work, why don't you pick it up your self? Same goes for PoE. If no one is making a mod that you want, make one your self it is that simple...

 

As far as my failure at reading and comprehension goes, the mod files are still there. You could download them and continue the work your self, as a matter of fact you could start working on a mod for PoE right now.

 

Unfortunately you are way too busy playing your favourite game: "Pillars Of Eternity - Flame Wars", The Forum Troll DLC...

 

Well that's it from me I guess, gonna go back to playing this awsome game and posting in threads that are slightly less poluted and way less personal for ppl who post there.

 

 So if I want to play games I need to learn to make them. Sounds legit. Its also cool for you to personally insult me and then act like I started a fight with you. That seems legit too. 

[Smorensky]

Look, the IEMod is out allready, and if you are looking for an option that reduces XP gain across the board, why not suggest it to the ppl making the mod? Adding a feature that reduces all XP gained across the board shouldn't be too hard to implement and would probably solve most issues you have with the game atm.

 

I mean outside of that I'm not rly sure what else you could do? It is highly unlikely that Obsidian will rework the entire XP curve unless enough ppl request it as an option (and even then). So for now I do belive a mod is the most likely solution for this issue, as many ppl don't rly have a problem with the way game handles XP.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Smorensky

[Risewild]

 I believe that people usually think about "I will play solo and reach the level cap really fast and then it gets boring.", which is a valid thought for playing solo.

But this game was announced as a old-school kind of RPG game, and as old IE games it is made to be played with a party, it is possible to play solo but the game was made to be a party game, and has a level cap shorter than the XP awarded ingame because it allows one to play with all the vanilla NPC's and also all the possible player made NPC's and be able to level ALL of those to the top level.

 

 Imagine if I play the game following all the NPC's stories and beat them all and level them all to level 12, then I decide to dump them all and create new characters, while I can create higher level characters I would still need xp to level this custom party and reach the level cap, but then I already used up all of the game xp and so this new NPC's wouldn't be able to reach the level cap.

 

 Also this level cap definitely "hints" that in the future there will be at least one expansion (notice the use of the word Expansion and not DLC, if you are old-school you know the difference ) for this game that will push the maximum level and (probably) allows to continue playing with your old character.

 

 Just a final note, old-school rpg systems were all about having a very rigorous set of rules and always trying to be balanced, if anything would be found unbalanced then new rules would come by and "patch" the unbalanced part. That is why old rpg's games were obscure and always associated with nerds and geeks back in the day, because they were so complex and rigorous most people wouldn't understand or know how to play them. "Modern" day rpg games are all about spreading to the highest number of consumers possible and so they make them very basic to learn and play, most players this days wouldn't buy a complex and complicated game because it would get bored, frustrated and annoyed if he/she would have to think on how to create and/or level up their characters if there is more to do than just click on a box with a few options (Hit Harder, Be Tougher, Cast New Shiny Spell, etc.).

 

 Pillars of Eternity is a welcome breath of fresh air from all the "new" rpg games that came out the last ten years (there are some exceptions that are playable or even good, but even those are not as great as the really old classics).

 

Sorry I suffer from some mental issues and tend to write too much when I post and that is why I avoid forums usually, so I am sorry if anyone gets offended by my big complaining sounding (which is only my opinion, I am not trying to bash anyone) post.

[Hatred]

Look, the IEMod is out allready, and if you are looking for an option that reduces XP gain across the board, why not suggest it to the ppl making the mod? Adding a feature that reduces all XP gained across the board shouldn't be too hard to implement and would probably solve most issues you have with the game atm.

 

I mean outside of that I'm not rly sure what else you could do? It is highly unlikely that Obsidian will rework the entire XP curve unless enough ppl request it as an option (and even then). So for now I do belive a mod is the most likely solution for this issue, as many ppl don't rly have a problem with the way game handles XP.

 The people who make the IE mod are already aware of the XP issue.  I have been in convsersation with one of these people already. You know what I got ? 

"Much of the content is designed for lower level (much like Baldur's Gate), however to me it just doesn't feel that fun to play through. To add insult to injury, most of the encounters are fairly repetitive as well."

"There will be tweaks, but in order for there be mods to fix problems, the game has to be good enough so that people actually want to work on such mods. I'm currently at the beginning of Act 3, and I'm pretty burnt out of the game so far and from what I've been told, Act 3 is the worst Act as well, so for now I've lost interest in continuing."

This is why I am raising it here in the forums. Its because I am more than a little worried that there will be no mod. I also think the game should to at least to some extent stand on its own.

 

Idk how to make the colour normal sorry. I just copy pasted it.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hatred

[lord_wc]

edit : since 2004 so 10 years less time than I have up my sleeve. Nice job bringing up time then kid. You are at a 10 year disadvantage in terms of time spent playing 'RPGs' (in other words you missed all of them since bugger all RPGs even been made in the last 10 years worth spitting on)  and a 2 year disadvantage on following this game with interest. 

Casual filth is all you are.

I love how you don't even remember the original bard's tale then come out with the 'ima such an oldschool rpg player' card.

Also, how about you behave a bit? Your mom should've washed your mouth with a soap instead of buying you a computer.

[Hatred]

k. I've never had anyone buy me a PC. Also never claimed to be any kind of gamer in particular. I refuted your BS claim to have been playing RPG's longer than me. Since the IE games and Morrowind I havent enjoyed any RPGs. Its why I cared about this one.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hatred

[Smorensky]

Well dunno, hopefully they will keep updating the IEMod, or somone else will make a different mod. After all this is a good game so far. As for repetative combat, well TBH it wasn't much diferent in the older IE games where certain parts of the game felt like a chore. So far I find the game interesting, more so than any other games in recent memory.

 

Honestly you could try playing on PoTD and see how that works out for you, as the diff increase is substantial and you actually need those extra levels to overcome the "cheating" monster stats, kind of like HoF in IWD2, just without importing a leveled up character.

[Hatred]

 It has been a long time since I played the older IE games but I do remember some bits being chore like. I don't like pinning my hopes on mods but it seems that is where we are at atm. I really really feel like obsidian should do a bit of something for the game. I also hope they view the progression as broken in order to make at the very least future games a bit more interesting.

 I'll try PotD although I am feeling pretty burnt out with PoE right now too. Its why I am playing "PoE flamewards DLC" or whatever this is. Since I have the GoG version I don't even have the patch yet so I figured at the very least I would wait for that. Also I will try and auto attack my way through act 3 if I can get the negativity that now covers my thoughts about the game out of my head for any length of time.

 

Edit: it would be really nice if I could turn on PotD now so that I could actually see what its like.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hatred

[Smorensky]

Well for comparison, on Hard when you get to Caed Nua, the shadows and phantoms in the courtyard have their deflection around 50. On PoTD their deflection and most other defenses were around 75, that meant my lvl3 party of 5 (normal NPCs), had about the same chance as a paper cat in hell of beating them, even when I tried to use stealth pulls to split the group. But then again as I said I used normal NPC. I'm guessing that creating 5 hirelings could make the job a lot easier (or at least doable on lvl4).