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TrueMenace

Cipher Powers need to be tweaked for release...

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Past couple of days I've been dabbling with the Cipher. I have no qualms with their ability to generate focus, they are really flexible in that department and you shouldn't have trouble gaining enough of it for your powers. 

 

However, their powers are all over the place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Cipher's supposed to be one of the "hard hitters" like the Rogue? 

 

Their powers don't reflect that. 

 

Their powers are either DPS focused, Affliction-Based focused, or a mix of the two. 

 

If your unfamiliar with the Cipher, a lot of their powers are "interesting" and "creative" in the sense that you get to target an enemy OR ally and if that attack lands, it will then jump in an AoE around the target hitting foes with other secondary effects.

 

Ok...pretty cool right? It's got that whole "mind" power flavor to it where your attacks invade the minds of your foes and it spreads. 

 

Now here is where it gets messy. For example, you get these lame beam spells like Antipathetic Field that is very difficult to execute considering you have to get as many enemies between yourself and another enemy. It's too tedious to execute in battle. You need to move your cipher to the sides kind of, and then cross your fingers that this stupid beam doesn't fry your allies because friendly fire... (Cipher beam spells are are a nightmare to use...).

 

Other powers don't really even do their intended effect. Amplified Thrust is supposed to push enemies backwards but for me, it doesn't work. Has anyone gotten this power to work? It just doesn't work and the damage is a joke.

 

I really like the idea behind their abilities, but the execution is never there for me. It's always a bit lackluster. I don't know what needs to be done. Higher damage or what? 

 

Maybe I'm playing them wrong or I'm dreaming, can someone enlighten me? How are you guys feeling about Ciphers? They are not discussed a lot. I feel like it's going to be the least played class since their Powers are not super intuitive at a glance?

Edited by TrueMenace

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if u don't know why post here? "it's doesn't feel right" is not an argument.


I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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Accordng to a quote posted by Sensuki on the RPGCodex, Ciphers will be seeing some improvements.


"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity


 


[slap Aloth]

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if u don't know why post here? "it's doesn't feel right" is not an argument.

Baffled by this comment. Did you read what I said? Ciphers need buffs. This is not one of those cases where I think "it doesn't feel right to me, but others might"...

 

Ciphers need buffs.

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Accordng to a quote posted by Sensuki on the RPGCodex, Ciphers will be seeing some improvements.

Interesting, I wonder what he'll be tweaking. Cipher power execution is slightly harder than other spellcasters due to positioning, but there is no extra payoff for that IMO. They should address that. 

Edited by TrueMenace

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Josh said he individually tweaked all Cipher powers yesterday apparently.

 

However any discrepancies you find between what the spell says it does and what it actually does - report it in the bug forums

Edited by Sensuki

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The only one in particular I know about is Amplified Thrust, do you have twitter?

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Lower level powers I prefer:

Eyestrike, Soul Shock, Whisper of Treason
 
Intellect, Might and Dex in that order of priority
 
Biting Whip is a must
 
Anyways with half focus every fight can begin with enemies blinded and/or dazed, fast Foe only AOE damage centered on the tank and/or an enemy taken out of the fight for around 15 seconds. I like to combine with a Priest's Painful Interdiction right before any of these for the weaken effect.

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Lower level powers I prefer:

Eyestrike, Soul Shock, Whisper of Treason
 
Intellect, Might and Dex in that order of priority
 
Biting Whip is a must
 
Anyways with half focus every fight can begin with enemies blinded and/or dazed, fast Foe only AOE damage centered on the tank and/or an enemy taken out of the fight for around 15 seconds. I like to combine with a Priest's Painful Interdiction right before any of these for the weaken effect.

 

 

Mental Binding is IMO a great power because it paralyzes the main target and Paralyze is a very power affliction. 

Edited by TrueMenace

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Lower level powers I prefer:

Eyestrike, Soul Shock, Whisper of Treason
 
Intellect, Might and Dex in that order of priority
 
Biting Whip is a must
 
Anyways with half focus every fight can begin with enemies blinded and/or dazed, fast Foe only AOE damage centered on the tank and/or an enemy taken out of the fight for around 15 seconds. I like to combine with a Priest's Painful Interdiction right before any of these for the weaken effect.

 

 

I like Tenuous Grasp, you can start many fights by having them kill one of their own. It's kinda cheesy though, as it can be cast outside of combat and out of sight to solo some groups of enemies.

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Lower level powers I prefer:

Eyestrike, Soul Shock, Whisper of Treason
 
Intellect, Might and Dex in that order of priority
 
Biting Whip is a must
 
Anyways with half focus every fight can begin with enemies blinded and/or dazed, fast Foe only AOE damage centered on the tank and/or an enemy taken out of the fight for around 15 seconds. I like to combine with a Priest's Painful Interdiction right before any of these for the weaken effect.

 

 

I like Tenuous Grasp, you can start many fights by having them kill one of their own. It's kinda cheesy though, as it can be cast outside of combat and out of sight to solo some groups of enemies.

 

What's the difference between Charmed and Dominated? Do you know? Curious, that's all.

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What's the difference between Charmed and Dominated? Do you know? Curious, that's all.

 

 

 

Charm includes a significant debuff component, Dominate doesn't. The real advantage of  Puppet Master is that taking it instead of Treasonous Whisper opens up other first level Cipher powers. There are four good level one powers -- soul shock, treasonous whisper, eyestrike, and mind blast -- so it's a tough call which to take. 

 

On the other hand if you want a junk power, right now at least Phantom Foes is the worst one by far, worse even than amplified thrust. All it does is give flanked, and all Flanked does is give - 10 Deflection. There are ten other Cipher powers that will over-write that penalty and make it redundant/suppressed/worthless while also giving some other benefit as well, and your Cipher will end up taking at least one of them. Its only marginal value is if you really want the Flanked effect for some reason, like you have a magic item that gives bonuses against Flanked targets, but that's an edge case and not a reason to take a power.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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What's the difference between Charmed and Dominated? Do you know? Curious, that's all.

 

 

 

Charm includes a significant debuff component, Dominate doesn't. The real advantage of  Puppet Master is that taking it instead of Treasonous Whisper opens up other first level Cipher powers. There are four good level one powers -- soul shock, treasonous whisper, eyestrike, and mind blast -- so it's a tough call which to take. 

 

On the other hand if you want a junk power, right now at least Phantom Foes is the worst one by far, worse even than amplified thrust. All it does is give flanked, and all Flanked does is give - 10 Deflection. There are ten other Cipher powers that will over-write that penalty and make it redundant/suppressed/worthless while also giving some other benefit as well, and your Cipher will end up taking at least one of them. Its only marginal value is if you really want the Flanked effect for some reason, like you have a magic item that gives bonuses against Flanked targets, but that's an edge case and not a reason to take a power.

 

Wait, flanked gets over-written by other afflictions? 

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Wait, flanked gets over-written by other afflictions?

I would say yes in case of Deflection debuff. When they share the same debuff it doesn't stack, only the biggest effect is active. At least I think it's supposed to work like this...

 

in case it's useful, difference when considering Charmed vs. Dominated according to the description:

Speed and Accuracy and all defences -25

 

For the speed element there is in combat log x0.75 attack speed

Edited by ushas

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What's the difference between Charmed and Dominated? Do you know? Curious, that's all.

 

 

 

Charm includes a significant debuff component, Dominate doesn't. The real advantage of  Puppet Master is that taking it instead of Treasonous Whisper opens up other first level Cipher powers. There are four good level one powers -- soul shock, treasonous whisper, eyestrike, and mind blast -- so it's a tough call which to take. 

 

On the other hand if you want a junk power, right now at least Phantom Foes is the worst one by far, worse even than amplified thrust. All it does is give flanked, and all Flanked does is give - 10 Deflection. There are ten other Cipher powers that will over-write that penalty and make it redundant/suppressed/worthless while also giving some other benefit as well, and your Cipher will end up taking at least one of them. Its only marginal value is if you really want the Flanked effect for some reason, like you have a magic item that gives bonuses against Flanked targets, but that's an edge case and not a reason to take a power.

 

Wait, flanked gets over-written by other afflictions? 

 

 

 

"Flanked" doesn't, but the only effect of "Flanked" is -10 Deflection, and there are like ten other Cipher abilities (including Eyestrike and Whisper of Treason, which are both lower level) that give similar or greater debuffs to Deflection, and those won't stack. So you still get the "flanked" affliction, but it doesn't *do* anything if there's just about any other debuff on the same target.

 

So if (for example) you've already hit the target with Eyestrike, or Secret Horrors, or Silent Scream, etc., and you also hit it with Phantom Foes, the only thing you're accomplishing with Phantom Foes is if you happen to be carrying a weapon that gives a bonus vs. Flanked enemies.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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wait a minute. I just got BB Fighter Flanked & Blinded and this two obviously stack -> -30 defl.:

 

 

Flanked.jpg

 

 

 

edit: stunned & flanked too

Edited by ushas

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wait a minute. I just got BB Fighter Flanked & Blinded and this two obviously stack -> -30 defl.:

 

 

Flanked.jpg

 

 

 

edit: stunned & flanked too

This just got interesting...

 

So is that a bug? Is Flanked even an affliction? Only "afflictions" can override other "afflictions". 

Edited by TrueMenace

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It's sure as hell 

 



 



wait a minute. I just got BB Fighter Flanked & Blinded and this two obviously stack -> -30 defl.:

 

 

Flanked.jpg

 

 

 

edit: stunned & flanked too

This just got interesting...

 

So is that a bug? Is Flanked even an affliction? Only "afflictions" can override other "afflictions". 

 

 

 

It's sure as hell something. My understanding was that only the strongest penalty to a given stat would be put in place, just like stacking with buffs. Maybe "Flanked" counts as "passive" ? Did the "flanked" in your test come from an ability or from positioning?

 

I mean that's still not really enough to make Phantom Foes "good" but if it stacks with everything because of some weird twist of the rules that's a benefit.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Try reading the in-game encyclopedia. It mentions exactly which affliction replaces which.

It is not a simple case of supression when the penalty to stat X is higher. It has more to do with afflictions being in a "ladder", for example Frightened-->Terrified. Or hobbled->stunned->paralyzed->petrified.

^Above examples are out of my head, may not be exactly as in game.

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I'm pretty sure Flanked is supposed to stack, as it's not really a normal affliction.

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