Monk tank build experiments

[Odd Hermit]

So, I'm picking classes I wasn't fond of/have been neglecting for awhile and giving them a go.

 

First up is monk. I had a period where I liked them, and then decided I disliked the wound mechanic. It seemed they ended up wound-starved if you built them defensively or as a DPS not getting attacked. I also didn't like how their attacks were cones, but you couldn't aim them like normal AoEs as they need a specific target.

 

After trying them out I found:

 

Monks are good for soaking up raw or high damage. Something other tanks lack relatively, other than regular old DR from armor and a few talents. Damage that bypasses deflection, monks are actually fueled by and are in substantially less danger from due to the wound mechanic. Unfortunately the game doesn't display exactly what's going on with it numerically anywhere I could find, so I can't say how much it's absorbing. I believe it's % based, making them great vs. high damage hits.

 

They are best as tanks. I tried 2h and dual wield with and without weapons, and found them extremely underwhelming. They could maybe make a decent second tank, but you won't get much out of them as a DPS if you're not taking significant damage.

 

They're arguably best in role as tanks. I was surprised how well they stay up. They may usurp Paladin in this role. Primarily because they're more durable against things that bypass deflection. They also do more damage while remaining very tanky. They're probably the best 1h+shield class choice if you actually want substantial damage while using a high deflect build. Especially since the class starts with high base accuracy.

 

They have serious longevity. 6 * Stamina health pool lasts a long time.

 

My final, optimized build that I was most happy with is this -

 

Race: Any, but I chose Fire Godlike for thematic reasons, and it's not too bad combined with a Monk Tank's strengths.

 

Attributes:

 

Might 19

Con 8

Dex 7

Per 17

Int 10

Res 17

 

Talents:

 

Weapon and Shield Style no brainer deflection

Cautious Attack no brainer deflection

Lesser Wounds hard to really tell what it does from in-game info, but more wounds faster is good so hopefully it's substantial. Might be able to skip it.

I'd want to eventually fit Scion of Flames in.

 

Abilities:

 

Torment's Reach - It's this or swift strikes, and this gives AoE and lowers might so just felt better to me for a tank, and I like the bursty single use over the duration bonus. Situational/occasion use, I wish we had more/better options at this level. -6% damage taken from some enemies could be substantial against heavy hitters though.

 

Turning Wheel - Allows you to do pretty decent damage with a good 1h weapon w/out an offensive modal, I chose Mace. Also makes sure unused wounds are doing something for you.

 

Soul Mirror - Hilarious, archers will kill themselves passively for you.

 

Rooting Pain - Passive and decent damage w/stacked might. Potential AoE interrupt. Works while you're CCed. Benefits from getting beat on by larger groups. And if you move and get disengagement attacked, it's just more damage for you. Needs high might though to get through DR, but great against low DR enemies.

 

 

I didn't take Force of Anguish!?!? Yeah, you could fit it in, probably in place of Turning Wheel. It's good, but it costs 2 wounds and I chose a more passive route that benefits more from building wounds than spending them, and found it worked better for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gkathellar]

Cool, maybe I'll give the monk a try.

 

To be honest, I was really turned off by the wound mechanic, despite normally liking crazy magic kung-fu. It just didn't fit my image of a monk. I guess the draw here is that the monk isn't so much the crazy magic kung-fu guy as he is the tanky guy who can also do punches I guess or whatever.

 

Are you using any armor? I presume that's obvious, but I haven't really looked at the class, so ... yeah.

[Odd Hermit]

Cool, maybe I'll give the monk a try.

 

To be honest, I was really turned off by the wound mechanic, despite normally liking crazy magic kung-fu. It just didn't fit my image of a monk. I guess the draw here is that the monk isn't so much the crazy magic kung-fu guy as he is the tanky guy who can also do punches I guess or whatever.

 

Are you using any armor? I presume that's obvious, but I haven't really looked at the class, so ... yeah.

 

Monks aren't good as the no armor/weapon type character usually associated with the name. I found it best to equip mine like a battle cleric. Plate Armor(or whatever high DR armor you have that isn't too weak against common damage types), Mace, Shield.

 

Wound Mechanic is a bit weird, but when you get used to it, it's an asset. The lack of control over the character's main resource put me off them as well originally.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Odd Hermit]

Soul Mirror at work:

 

 

"Stop hitting yourself"

 

Also, not bad damage for a tank.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[roguelike]

I haven't played around with monks much, can you explain how monks are more durable against raw damage than fighters (which have healing) and paladins (which have healing and more all defense)?  Other than their slightly larger health pool, I don't really see any advantages.

[Odd Hermit]

I haven't played around with monks much, can you explain how monks are more durable against raw damage than fighters (which have healing) and paladins (which have healing and more all defense)?  Other than their slightly larger health pool, I don't really see any advantages.

 

Wounds absorb a portion of all damage taken, converting it into wounds. There's a cap on wounds, so you do have to spend them/ not let them build up too quickly though otherwise you take full damage. But with high deflection I haven't found that to be a worry.

 

Unfortunately the game doesn't explain wounds very well or in much detail though.

 

Plus, as shown above, they get a pretty major bonus vs. ranged weapons. 50% chance of send missile back at the shooter.

 

Lacking healing I don't see as a major problem, most parties will have other sources of healing for the tank(or wear a regen item or whatever).

 

 

 

It surprised me to find they're up there with Paladin as a tank as well. I didn't think much of them until now.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[roguelike]

Are you sure it still works that way?  The combat log doesn't indicate they're taking any less damage and it's seems difficult to tell just looking at the numbers if they're taking less damage.  Some damage, like DoTs is definitely not being mitigated.  

 

Wounds seem to come at 1 per every 10 damage, rounded down.  

[mrmonocle]

monk's dps gets insane with turning wheel+scion of flame. A charged monk basicly obliderates around!

[Odd Hermit]

Are you sure it still works that way?  The combat log doesn't indicate they're taking any less damage and it's seems difficult to tell just looking at the numbers if they're taking less damage.  Some damage, like DoTs is definitely not being mitigated.  

 

Wounds seem to come at 1 per every 10 damage, rounded down.  

 

I'm not sure. As I said, the game doesn't explain or display wounds very well. It certainly feels like they have some kind of extra mitigation though.

[Adventurer]

If monks really are that strong than they need to be nerfed i really don't want to see Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale like monks again

[mrmonocle]

If monks really are that strong than they need to be nerfed i really don't want to see Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale like monks again

Monk dps hard but they r too squishy to tank. However they NEED to get damaged in order to charge their abilities, so they r not overwhelmingly strong.

[Odd Hermit]

 

If monks really are that strong than they need to be nerfed i really don't want to see Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale like monks again

Monk dps hard but they r too squishy to tank. However they NEED to get damaged in order to charge their abilities, so they r not overwhelmingly strong.

 

 

They're not too squishy to tank if you build them as a tank. The temptation is to go lighter on defenses to get more wounds but you shouldn't, really.

 

I'm not sure they're overpowered. They do better damage than a Paladin, but lack the support abilities that Paladin has which are quite good, particularly Liberating Exhortation.

[Adventurer]

@mrmonocle & Odd Hermit thank you for sharing your thoughts guys

I sure hope they don't turn out to be op again in the end

Edited March 15, 2015 by Adventurer

[Falkon Swiftblade]

@mrmonocle & Odd Hermit thank you for sharing your thoughts guys

I sure hope they don't turn out to be op again in the end

 

What's funny is how much fun folks were having with the cypher class because they were OP. Now that they nerfed them they're not as fun. Similarly with Monks, you kind of need to get them leveled up to feel fun. Remember these guys are playing at level 4-8ish when final cap is 12. So mid game content roughly, they should feel fairly strong by this point.

[Sensuki]

Monks don't absorb damage anymore, it's probably just their x6 HealthmUlt

[Odd Hermit]

Monks don't absorb damage anymore, it's probably just their x6 HealthmUlt

 

Good to know.

 

I think the interrupting and missile reflect probably adds up too. And the damage output is so much better than a Paladin tank.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Whipstitch]

They are best as tanks. I tried 2h and dual wield with and without weapons, and found them extremely underwhelming. They could maybe make a decent second tank, but you won't get much out of them as a DPS if you're not taking significant damage.

The trick to running "damage" monks alongside tanks is to think of them as utility rather than true dps. A might & intellect monk can bring 9 seconds worth of Stun to every fight and with Force of Anguish they can tack on 14 more seconds worth of Prone per every 2 wounds. They don't do anywhere near rogue damage or compare favorably to casters blowing their dailies, but a big health pool, mediocre damage plus the ability to tekken juggle things to death without blowing daily powers can still make a for a pretty decent 6th character.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Whipstitch

[Odd Hermit]

Have been going with a Monk/Chanter/Barbarian/Ranger party to really put this build to the test.

 

What I've found is that early game, monk is definitely a little more lackluster. A Paladin or Fighter with basic early deflection talents is better than a Monk stuck with just Swift Strikes and Torment's Reach + deflection talents. Monk definitely relies more on talent/ability progression. That said, I ran my Paladins and Fighters in a more powerful group so it's hard to judge. I have no strong AoE since I took a Barbarian instead of a real AoE class...

 

Chanters of course are still good, just needing some stam restoration in the party and went with that, didn't want to crutch on priest spells while really trialing these builds. I took Thrice Was Wronged though and I think it was overnerfed. It seems really poor now for the cost of 3 chants, often I'm better off simply spending that time continuing to auto-attack.

 

Barbarian feels pretty weak and a bit thrown together. My least played class and I don't feel I'm missing much at least yet. The AoE melee damage is mediocre at best and the damage output on single targets isn't great either. Fighter and Rogue have better debuffs in knock down, cripple, blind. I'm using a 2h, maybe I should be dual wielding. I haven't committed talents to either one yet so I'll try dual wield soon. 

 

Ranger isn't as bad as I'd expected. I'm opening with a crossbow, swapping to a hunting bow with vicious aim. Vicious Aim seems like a strong modal. It's surprisingly decent and my ranger is top damage so far. The pet feels like a liability at times, but I chose wolf so I get him in/out in a hurry. Mostly I see it as a flanking utility, I put it behind targets my melee are on for that -10 deflection. I occasionally get something set on attacking it and micro the wolf around in circles keeping one enemy sort-of CCed in a roundabout way too. It's tedious but it works, dude is super fast. Still wouldn't pick a Ranger over other ranged options though but we'll see how it plays at higher levels.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[roguelike]

 

I think the interrupting and missile reflect probably adds up too. And the damage output is so much better than a Paladin tank.

 

Soul Mirror is poorly phrased, but I think what it actually does is reflect 50% of missed shots, so it doesn't really add to tankiness (except in the sense that ranged characters die faster).

Edited March 16, 2015 by roguelike

[Odd Hermit]

 

 

I think the interrupting and missile reflect probably adds up too. And the damage output is so much better than a Paladin tank.

 

Soul Mirror is poorly phrased, but I think what it actually does is reflect 50% of missed shots, so it doesn't really add to tankiness (except in the sense that ranged characters die faster).

 

 

I'm getting the sense that nothing about the monk is accurately described in game, heh.

[Sensuki]

Nothing in the game is accurately described xD

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Nothing in the game is accurately described xD

 

 

I have a feeling that's why there's so many bug's. Folks working on the game are probably just as confused as we are. Probably 2-3 people actually understand how to play the game as designed, the rest are just shaking their heads in agreement haha. It's slowly coming together though. Egads I can't imagine how this would've come out had they not allowed the backers to be on the beta for so long catching all these things! And this is just a snippet of the real game, yikes!

[Sensuki]

I assume that a lot of bugs in things that have multiple people working on something (in general, applicable to anything) are simply caused by miscommunication or lack of communication.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Sensuki

[Odd Hermit]

Barbarian has now pulled ahead of Ranger substantially. Once I grabbed the Exception Estoc he really came into his own. Plus, the spider fights were super favorable to AoE melee damage. Also added a Priest to the party, keeping everyone alive a lot better.

 

I've been trying different ranged weapons for ranger but so far with Vicious Aim Hunting Bow seems best, w/enchants to make it's damage good. However, bows just kind of suck even if Ranger is the best class to use them.

 

The pet is also just too often not playing any significant part in battles. Occasionally gets KOed and then my ranger is nerfed. Maybe I've got a too-melee heavy party for a ranger though, it just gets too clustery.

 

Monk is holding up pretty well, and now starting to deal some real damage. I went Scion of Flame instead of Lesser Wounds and I'm still managing to gain enough to build up my burn damage. 5 burn DR probably does hurt either, it's a common damage type.

[IndiraLightfoot]

@Odd Hermit: Please continue with your exploration of the classes in PoE. I learn so much from it!