Pillars of Eternity 2 and crowdfunding on Kickstarter?

[Lychnidos]

 

 

 

 

PoE's price looks about right to me, although I'd probably wait for a sale before I bought it.

I think it's a Steam's fault, if you look at the pricing you'll see that in Europe you have the same price but in Euros, in England you have exact the same number but with changed symbol from euro to pounds, same with USA. Why do people that live in Poland or Czech Republic for example have to pay more than people in USA while their revenues are a lot smaller, that's simply not fair. It's better for them to buy this game in Russia or Ukraine because the cost is much lower, ofc there's always a risk of being banned by Valve for this. 

 

Poland and Chech Rep. will have cheaper physical copies in stores. Outside of sales I don't purchase on STEAM as it's extremely expensive. 

However the store price for PoE is 125 PLN while Witcher 3 preorder costs 130 PLN in Poland and this is overpricing to me.

 

 

Maybe, just maybe, CD Projekt decided to sell the game at a greatly reduced margin in Poland(them being Polish), because where I live the price is equivalent to 207 zloty. 

 

I can assure you this thing happens with my market, PrimeJunta, the clothes. A shirt might cost 14 euros (wholesale price) at the start of the season, during mid season it'll drop at 10 euros and at the end of the season it'll cost about 5 euros. The thing is, the shirt is not overpriced when it comes out. And I have a fixed price on it so the store cannot overprice it to the customers. And this happens with most fabrics. Tell me I'm an idiot for doing so.

 

Strange, over here clothes are a product with one of the highest profit margins before price drops.

 

P.S. I must commend this thread, it's giving the romance one a run for its money.

[Sedrefilos]

Haha, Lord of Riva, my friend, worry not. I don't have racial prejudices

I don't believe all germans are the same as I don't believe all greeks are poor victims

To be honest, I mostly care about immigrants here, since extreme rightists found their opportunity to "shine". Finances can be fixed, human lives cannot

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[PrimeJunta]

But you can be selling and be moral at the same time. 

 

I agree.

 

However I don't think pricing has any bearing on morality at all... when we're dealing with a luxury good rather than a necessity, at least. Obsidian should charge however much they believe the market can bear. They didn't promise us anything different -- as far as I can tell -- and nobody's going to die out of not being able to afford to buy a license. Whatever they're able to make from this, they will have earned.

 

(I do think that pricing, say, life-saving medicines to market is immoral. Which is one reason I think the pharmaceutical industry should be socialized. But I digress.)

[Lord of Riva]

 

 

 

 

 

PoE's price looks about right to me, although I'd probably wait for a sale before I bought it.

I think it's a Steam's fault, if you look at the pricing you'll see that in Europe you have the same price but in Euros, in England you have exact the same number but with changed symbol from euro to pounds, same with USA. Why do people that live in Poland or Czech Republic for example have to pay more than people in USA while their revenues are a lot smaller, that's simply not fair. It's better for them to buy this game in Russia or Ukraine because the cost is much lower, ofc there's always a risk of being banned by Valve for this. 

 

Poland and Chech Rep. will have cheaper physical copies in stores. Outside of sales I don't purchase on STEAM as it's extremely expensive. 

However the store price for PoE is 125 PLN while Witcher 3 preorder costs 130 PLN in Poland and this is overpricing to me.

 

 

Maybe, just maybe, CD Projekt decided to sell the game at a greatly reduced margin in Poland(them being Polish), because where I live the price is equivalent to 207 zloty. 

 

I can assure you this thing happens with my market, PrimeJunta, the clothes. A shirt might cost 14 euros (wholesale price) at the start of the season, during mid season it'll drop at 10 euros and at the end of the season it'll cost about 5 euros. The thing is, the shirt is not overpriced when it comes out. And I have a fixed price on it so the store cannot overprice it to the customers. And this happens with most fabrics. Tell me I'm an idiot for doing so.

 

Strange, over here clothes are a product with one of the highest profit margins before price drops.

 

P.S. I must commend this thread, it's giving the romance one a run for its money.

 

 

 

well at least its a lot more civil so far

[Sedrefilos]

 

But you can be selling and be moral at the same time. 

 

I agree.

 

However I don't think pricing has any bearing on morality at all... when we're dealing with a luxury good rather than a necessity, at least. Obsidian should charge however much they believe the market can bear. They didn't promise us anything different -- as far as I can tell -- and nobody's going to die out of not being able to afford to buy a license. Whatever they're able to make from this, they will have earned.

 

(I do think that pricing, say, life-saving medicines to market is immoral. Which is one reason I think the pharmaceutical industry should be socialized. But I digress.)

 

Of course. I didn;t say they promised anything about prices. I just had expectations about it. Not only from Obsidian. Being naive I guess.

[illathid]

 

 

 

 

I am working for-profit, I just don't overprofit. More money comes by more people buying my clothes, not by me overpricing them.

btw, since you want to know, I live in Greece, a country suffering by a huge financial crisis since 2011. Everything is difficult at the time. Thankfully I didn't have to fire anyone; I just didn't hire more staff when others went on retirement (the company is 34 years old - belonging to my mother and uncle before me and my brother). I'm left with four emploees now and I mostly work with externals.

 

Edit: I though that lowering your price will attract more people into buying your product instead of a similar more expensive, thus making you more competitive, not the other way around.

Things in Greece must suck right now. I hope the Germans come to their senses before it's too late. My sympathies.

 

Nevertheless, I get a feeling you're shifting your argument. Earlier I got the impression that you were arguing that Obsidian's pricing was morally wrong; now you seem to be arguing that it's a poor business decision. That's a different argument, and one I have no opinion on as I have zero experience pricing games.

 

That said: P:E is a niche game. I'm pretty sure it would not shift Skyrim-like units even if they set the price at one cent, or zero. The market for PC/Mac/Linux party-based isometric top-down RTwP RPG's is limited, and expanding it is uphill work. I have no idea how big it is -- a million consumers? two million? five million? -- but it's certainly smaller than the Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Angry Birds, or Skyrim market... or the T-shirt market, for that matter. That means that setting the launch price too low is potentially more dangerous than setting it too high, as that'll saturate the market at a lower price than you could have had, whereas you can always lower the price later -- indeed, you're expected to do so.

oh god, im german, i hate this **** going on, sorry in the name of germany, we are not all ****

@Sedrefilos

 

You keep saying Obsidian has put no money into making the game. Can you cite this claim for me? Given the number of people working on the project, I find it extremely unlikely that Obsidian hasn't put some of its own money into the budget to help cover the development costs of the game.

Thats not how it works, with the information we have its a logical conclusion that they didnt invest anything. If they did it would be necessary to back up your argument not his. Its nearly impossible to double check on his end, which is why he saked, more than once, that somneone official makes a statement (which probably wont happen, which is also kinda udnerstandable for a company, please dont misunderstand).

 

But i feel we are talking about some very basic, economical and moral, discussion. I do not think that following this line of argument would help solving the issue

Check this link:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/221533/Game_Developer_Salary_Survey_2014_The_results_are_in.php

 

And this one:

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Developers

 

You do the math

 

Edit:

just looking at programmers salaries alone for two years of development time is over $1.5 million.

 

Now actual cost will likely be lower as they could work on other projects at the same time, but it shows you how quickly the numbers add up.

Edited March 5, 2015 by illathid

[Lord of Riva]

Oh im aware that developing games is expensive (im one of the lowly,  QA henchmen myself ) .

 

im too lazy to calculate this now, also we may have an average there but thats no clear evidence on what Obsidian pays, it may be vastly different, who knows.

 

but my actual point was that this is a red herring in the discussion.

[Sedrefilos]

The only one that can answer is Obsidian.

I have a valid arguement. 1+1=2.

People may say it's The Market, or I don't care it's luxury, or what did you expect or whatever, nothing of which changes the fact that this is a game with 0 personal money invenstment that costs as much as a game that someone put their money in to produce it.

I don't understand why are people jumping to protect and speak on behalf of Obsidian like they know something more.

If Obsidian wants to answer this, let them do it and here I am.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[Luckmann]

The only one that can answer is Obsidian.

I have a valid arguement. 1+1=2.

 

People may say it's The Market, or I don't care it's luxury, or what did you expect or whatever, nothing of which changes the fact that this is a game with 0 personal money invenstment that costs as much as a game that someone put their money in to produce it.

 

I don't understand why are people jumping to protect and speak on behalf of Obsidian like they know something more.

If Obsidian wants to answer this, let them do it and here I am.

1. Still not seeing it.
2. It has been explained to you in detail.

[rjshae]

If PoE becomes a successful game in the market, that's more of a reason to use Kickstarter than not to. A successful Kickstarter campaign should reduce the financial risk of developing a game because most of the funds will be available at the start, without strings attached. In addition, the independent nature of the funding eliminates the potentially undesirable influence of a large publisher, while putting the developer into closer contact with the end customer.

[Lord of Riva]

 

The only one that can answer is Obsidian.

I have a valid arguement. 1+1=2.

 

People may say it's The Market, or I don't care it's luxury, or what did you expect or whatever, nothing of which changes the fact that this is a game with 0 personal money invenstment that costs as much as a game that someone put their money in to produce it.

 

I don't understand why are people jumping to protect and speak on behalf of Obsidian like they know something more.

If Obsidian wants to answer this, let them do it and here I am.

1. Still not seeing it.
2. It has been explained to you in detail.

 

 

 

Understanding him is quite easy, his point of view has been explained in detail as well. There is a difference in not agreeing with a person and pointing out that his arguments are invalid. And yes i can see that you explained your standpoint as well, why prolong the discussion now, since even if you understand each other you do not find a way to accept the respective standpoint.

 

I explained it above as well. If we could go from ridiculing each other into constructive discussion i guess this would serve its purpose a lot better.

i Agree with Sedrefilos that the only correct answer has to come from Obsidian, but i still doubt that they would answer his question as openly as he wants.

The Capilaist point of view is the more accepted one so there is no need for them to back down/explain on their pricing

[Lephys]

Thats not how it works, with the information we have its a logical conclusion that they didnt invest anything. If they did it would be necessary to back up your argument not his. Its nearly impossible to double check on his end, which is why he saked, more than once, that somneone official makes a statement (which probably wont happen, which is also kinda udnerstandable for a company, please dont misunderstand).

Ahh, the old "Neither one of us knows something, but only one of us needs to prove it, and it's not me" argument. That one's never ridiculous.

 

Also, how is something a "logical conclusion" based on no proof? They're prepared to "eat" the extra shipping costs of shipping the game discs later than the other physical goods. Do you think they accounted for that in the Kickstarter pledges, and are somehow breaking perfectly even?

[Lord of Riva]

 

Thats not how it works, with the information we have its a logical conclusion that they didnt invest anything. If they did it would be necessary to back up your argument not his. Its nearly impossible to double check on his end, which is why he saked, more than once, that somneone official makes a statement (which probably wont happen, which is also kinda udnerstandable for a company, please dont misunderstand).

Ahh, the old "Neither one of us knows something, but only one of us needs to prove it, and it's not me" argument. That one's never ridiculous.

 

Also, how is something a "logical conclusion" based on no proof? They're prepared to "eat" the extra shipping costs of shipping the game discs later than the other physical goods. Do you think they accounted for that in the Kickstarter pledges, and are somehow breaking perfectly even?

 

 

Well the issue is that Illathid demanded proff of Sedrefilos, it was not my argument. You are correct in the statement that this does serve no purpose. Which is exactly what i said btw, so you are actually agreeing with me. Im sorry if that didnt became evident.

 

Well you can gather information up to a point were you think you have conclusive evidence, thats how it works. You do not know if the comclusion you got is correct, but you think that it is. Thats how people understand the world we do not necessarily know but we learn.

 

It is unimportant if your conclusion is a fallacy as long as you search for new input and feedback and you are willing to incorporate new information in the thesis you built yourself. Something that certainly happened in the case of Sedrefilos since he put out his thesis in this thread, openly to discuss.

 

The problem here is that you guys do not know how the Money was used, so you (and i since i generally do not think that Sedrefilos is correct) act on a basis of believe as well. I state again that to fully understand the whole explicit issue we would need to get information from Obsidian to come to the truth of the matter.

 

 

The whole problem that is discussed here is a philosphical/political one, so if we regard the Societies we live in and come to the ground of the thematic we will end up in a situation were one person does not agree to a standpoint, including understandable reasons against a person with another viewpoint and understandable reasons.

(wish i could write in german here, i wonder if it becomes clear what i mean, im not a native speaker so give me some leeway :D )

 

The topic, that is coming through here (maximising revenue vs. social capitalism (maybe even socialism/communism) is a Discussion about how to solve the issue in society and if we would find a perfect solution in here we can certainly laugh at 2000 years of human society.

 

 

EDIT: also :

but my actual point was that this is a red herring in the discussion.

 

thats the point why we are agreeing with each other. If a discussion is to be understood we need to incorporate the complete statement of others.

 

(also can i get one or two of your fabuouls puns in there, i like them :D )

Edited March 5, 2015 by Lord of Riva

[Night Stalker]

Anyways, if PoE turns out great I would help fund PoE 2, but most likely at a lower tier than I did for PoE.

 

I would however hope that this would not be necessary, and that Obsidian wouldn't require outside funding.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Night Stalker

[Valmy]

The only one that can answer is Obsidian.

I have a valid arguement. 1+1=2.

People may say it's The Market, or I don't care it's luxury, or what did you expect or whatever, nothing of which changes the fact that this is a game with 0 personal money invenstment that costs as much as a game that someone put their money in to produce it.

I don't understand why are people jumping to protect and speak on behalf of Obsidian like they know something more.

If Obsidian wants to answer this, let them do it and here I am.

 

The reason I am jumping on you is your accusations are empty, your facts are wrong, and furthermore I want Obsidian to make a lot of money on this so I reject your entire premise.  Part of the reason I backed this game was so that Obsidian could make 100% profit on any sales.  I am completely 100% your enemy on this point.  The last thing I want to see is some revolt against Obsidian undermining them at this important juncture.  Further you are a backer so you already got the game at a discount.

 

If you have a problem with the price, it will be onsale at some point.

 

If Obsidian wants to give you an explanation that is up to them but I have every right and justification to disagree with you.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Valmy

[Valmy]

 

Understanding him is quite easy, his point of view has been explained in detail as well. There is a difference in not agreeing with a person and pointing out that his arguments are invalid. And yes i can see that you explained your standpoint as well, why prolong the discussion now, since even if you understand each other you do not find a way to accept the respective standpoint.

 

I explained it above as well. If we could go from ridiculing each other into constructive discussion i guess this would serve its purpose a lot better.

i Agree with Sedrefilos that the only correct answer has to come from Obsidian, but i still doubt that they would answer his question as openly as he wants.

The Capilaist point of view is the more accepted one so there is no need for them to back down/explain on their pricing

 

 

Of course his arguments are invalid.  If they were not we would not be disagreeing with him.

 

I love the 'Capitalist' point of view as if this is some huge corporation and not a company making a niche game.  Everyway we can spin this to paint Obsidian is evil is being deployed, even ridiculous political and economic ideological garbage.

 

We want Obsidian to make money so they can invest in more games.  Period. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by Valmy

[Lord of Riva]

 

 

Understanding him is quite easy, his point of view has been explained in detail as well. There is a difference in not agreeing with a person and pointing out that his arguments are invalid. And yes i can see that you explained your standpoint as well, why prolong the discussion now, since even if you understand each other you do not find a way to accept the respective standpoint.

 

I explained it above as well. If we could go from ridiculing each other into constructive discussion i guess this would serve its purpose a lot better.

i Agree with Sedrefilos that the only correct answer has to come from Obsidian, but i still doubt that they would answer his question as openly as he wants.

The Capilaist point of view is the more accepted one so there is no need for them to back down/explain on their pricing

 

 

I love the 'Capitalist' point of view as if this is some huge corporation and not a company making a niche game.  Everyway we can spin this to paint Obsidian is evil is being deployed, even ridiculous political and economic ideological garbage.

 

We want Obsidian to make money so they can invest in more games.  Period. 

 

Not interested in the committee of fairness dictating pricing based on its preconceived notions and guesswork.

 

 

it is indeed your right to have your own opinions on matters, although i somehow feel that your harshness in your last two posts does ridicule the possibility that others dont share your opinion. If you want your opinion to be accepted you should be able to accept others.

 

im not entirely sure why this makes you an enemy with anyone though.

[Ark Evensong]

Yeah, I'm not buying the "They invested 0 of their own money" argument.

 

Opportunity cost was already mentioned/explained.

 

The game was delayed for three months. Either they're digging into their own coffers, or they got Paradox to pay for it. Or who knows what else. In any case, the money for those extra months of development has to come from somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Backers. Even without that delay, I suspect they'd have invested some of their own money. But that's just a guess / expectation on my part. But to boldly proclaim as fact that they invested absolutely $0,- themselves just rubs me wrong.

 

And some other points:

 

At no point would a $20 sale result in a $20 profit for Obsidian. First, there's taxes. The distributor takes a cut, which I understand to be around 30% for Steam and GOG. I'm fairly certain Paradox takes a slice as well, but there's no way I could put a number to that. Probably a bunch of other things, too. (Like, higher tiers/editions include digital copies of the collector's Guidebook and Strategy Guide, and their publishers would want to be compensated, too.) Then what's left over goes to Obsidian. Part of that is spent on patches, customer support, keeping these Forums running ... whatever. After all that, there's profit. This is, of course, still a lot more than what they'd get for game that was funded completely by a publisher.

 

It's already cheaper than the "Big Titles". Those tend to go for €50-€60. Pillars of Eternity is €42. Is it a little higher than I expected? Sure. My guess would have been the €35-€40 range.

 

Paradox is publishing and in charge of distribution, and so I'm pretty sure they get to set the pricing. This while in communication with Obsidian, of course. But they probably have final say. You can be angry/annoyed with Obsidian for 'selling out' to Paradox, but I think that's part of another discussion.

 

What about the 46 000(+?) backers who thought they were getting the game cheaper by backing? If I'd backed at those lower levels, you can bet that I'd be annoyed if the regular price would be less than €30. (In fact, I was a little annoyed after backing FTL for $10, and seeing it for half off on Steam not long after release. Just a little, but annoyed nonetheless.)

[illathid]

Oh im aware that developing games is expensive (im one of the lowly, QA henchmen myself ) .

 

im too lazy to calculate this now, also we may have an average there but thats no clear evidence on what Obsidian pays, it may be vastly different, who knows.

 

but my actual point was that this is a red herring in the discussion.

How is it a red herring? We have no proof one way or the other if Obsidian used any of their own funds to cover development costs. Sedrefilos is affirmatively claiming that the haven't used any, therefore the burden of proof rests on him.

[Lephys]

Well the issue is that Illathid demanded proff of Sedrefilos, it was not my argument. You are correct in the statement that this does serve no purpose. Which is exactly what i said btw, so you are actually agreeing with me. Im sorry if that didnt became evident.

 

Well you can gather information up to a point were you think you have conclusive evidence, thats how it works. You do not know if the comclusion you got is correct, but you think that it is. Thats how people understand the world we do not necessarily know but we learn.

I apologize, as I did not mean to suggest that it was your argument. I was carelessly unspecific with my wording.

 

And I see what you're saying. But, the point is, you think something, until you know it. If you don't know it, there's never a reason to conclude anything. My whole point is that, there are two possibilities here:

 

1) That Obsidian spent some of their own money in this project, beyond the Kickstarter funding.

2) That Obsidian did not spend any of their own money in this project.

 

If we know neither, then they're both equally questionable. One isn't any more conclusive than the other, so there's exactly equal "necessity" for proof on both sides. Any parties involved can wager a guess, if they'd like, but, as the saying goes, "Your guess is as good as mine." The "No, YOU are the one who has to prove otherwise" argument is not sound.

 

If I THINK someone committed a crime, but have no proof they did so, it's not on just me to prove they did it, OR just them to prove they didn't. If either side cannot prove anything, then they should just be set free. The two are mutually exclusive, so as long as both are possible, neither is conclusive.

 

So, it isn't that "Hah, I believe they spent some of their own money, and that's a better conclusion than that they didn't." It's that both are arbitrary conclusions until actually proven.

[Sedrefilos]

 

The only one that can answer is Obsidian.

I have a valid arguement. 1+1=2.

People may say it's The Market, or I don't care it's luxury, or what did you expect or whatever, nothing of which changes the fact that this is a game with 0 personal money invenstment that costs as much as a game that someone put their money in to produce it.

I don't understand why are people jumping to protect and speak on behalf of Obsidian like they know something more.

If Obsidian wants to answer this, let them do it and here I am.

 

The reason I am jumping on you is your accusations are empty, your facts are wrong, and furthermore I want Obsidian to make a lot of money on this so I reject your entire premise.  Part of the reason I backed this game was so that Obsidian could make 100% profit on any sales.  I am completely 100% your enemy on this point.  The last thing I want to see is some revolt against Obsidian undermining them at this important juncture.  Further you are a backer so you already got the game at a discount.

 

If you have a problem with the price, it will be onsale at some point.

 

If Obsidian wants to give you an explanation that is up to them but I have every right and justification to disagree with you.

 

Enemy on what? You haven't read anything I wrote except my last post didn't you?

I never said I'm against Obsidian making profit. I find the price just too high and I don't see the reason for this.

I'm also a backer as you obviously (?) see; I've already bought the game at a lower price. Anyway I've explained myself in detail in umerous posts before. Read 'em if you wish.

You see as enemies anyone that dissagrees (?) with you so easily? What can I say.

[Lord of Riva]

 

Oh im aware that developing games is expensive (im one of the lowly, QA henchmen myself ) .

 

im too lazy to calculate this now, also we may have an average there but thats no clear evidence on what Obsidian pays, it may be vastly different, who knows.

 

but my actual point was that this is a red herring in the discussion.

How is it a red herring? We have no proof one way or the other if Obsidian used any of their own funds to cover development costs. Sedrefilos is affirmatively claiming that the haven't used any, therefore the burden of proof rests on him.

 

 

i think Lephys puts is in more beautiful words than i would be able to.

 

its pointless to discuss this point with the information we have, we would need confirmation from the faction in question to make our conclusion.

 

well we can still throw wild swings at each others, i sometimes feel that this is the reason for forum discussions nowadays.

 

I will come back if i see another interesting topic popping up in this thread.

 

Riva, over and Out.

[Sedrefilos]

Yeah, I'm not buying the "They invested 0 of their own money" argument.

 

Opportunity cost was already mentioned/explained.

 

The game was delayed for three months. Either they're digging into their own coffers, or they got Paradox to pay for it. Or who knows what else. In any case, the money for those extra months of development has to come from somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Backers. Even without that delay, I suspect they'd have invested some of their own money. But that's just a guess / expectation on my part. But to boldly proclaim as fact that they invested absolutely $0,- themselves just rubs me wrong.

 

And some other points:

 

At no point would a $20 sale result in a $20 profit for Obsidian. First, there's taxes. The distributor takes a cut, which I understand to be around 30% for Steam and GOG. I'm fairly certain Paradox takes a slice as well, but there's no way I could put a number to that. Probably a bunch of other things, too. (Like, higher tiers/editions include digital copies of the collector's Guidebook and Strategy Guide, and their publishers would want to be compensated, too.) Then what's left over goes to Obsidian. Part of that is spent on patches, customer support, keeping these Forums running ... whatever. After all that, there's profit. This is, of course, still a lot more than what they'd get for game that was funded completely by a publisher.

 

It's already cheaper than the "Big Titles". Those tend to go for €50-€60. Pillars of Eternity is €42. Is it a little higher than I expected? Sure. My guess would have been the €35-€40 range.

 

Paradox is publishing and in charge of distribution, and so I'm pretty sure they get to set the pricing. This while in communication with Obsidian, of course. But they probably have final say. You can be angry/annoyed with Obsidian for 'selling out' to Paradox, but I think that's part of another discussion.

 

What about the 46 000(+?) backers who thought they were getting the game cheaper by backing? If I'd backed at those lower levels, you can bet that I'd be annoyed if the regular price would be less than €30. (In fact, I was a little annoyed after backing FTL for $10, and seeing it for half off on Steam not long after release. Just a little, but annoyed nonetheless.)

I don't know if they've decided the 42 price for the extra 3 months; noone knows.

The big titles cost 50-60, yet I found DA:I for 48 in a retail store. In their own store, Origin, it costs 60. This means EA could have sell it much cheaper. I guess this could go for anyone. Anyway.

I didn't back the game for Paradox to get involved. NO PUBLISHERS was one of their major points during kickstarter.

The game costs about 20 if you back the project, yet it costs 42 if you don't. Some people made some points about this, I myself am not sure.

 

Anyway, if Obsidian doesen't want to answer, then fine. But don't pretend you know as well as them by assuming things.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[illathid]

ok, but it was sedrefilos who made the affirmative statement about the thing you say is pointless to discuss. Why come down on me for expressing doubt about this (as you point we can't know for certain without input from Obsidian)?

[Lord of Riva]

@sedrefilos:

oh and there IS another interesting point already.

 

Youll, again stand pretty much alone if you are talking about publishers.

 

The Publishing issue people have is something not inherently born from Publishers but are a symptom of a greater issue.

Paradox acts as a Distributor mainly, it would be same same to critize them using steam or any store whatsoever.

 

its just not practical.

 

Still the reasons you wont find any supporters for this is because paradox has no way to act on Obsidian as the "as evil perceived" Publishers do.

 

that doesnt make your point invalid (although i do not know of any promises since im no backer)
 

 

ok, but it was sedrefilos who made the affirmative statement about the thing you say is pointless to discuss. Why come down on me for expressing doubt about this (as you point we can't know for certain without input from Obsidian)?

 

 

Well Sedrefilos asked the party in question for information, there is no issue with that. How else go about the problem?

You can certainly express doubt ( i just said your demand for proof is incorrect, i never said your opinion, or the opinion is wrong from any other user).

 

Please go ahead and try to analyse the problem further, as much as you like , it was not my intention "come down on me" (im not even sure what this way of saying stands for, sorry but as said im not a native speaker)

 

if this means "why did you attack me?" then please udnerstand that this was not my intention. I merely stated that there is no use in this way of discussing things.

 

so, now im really outta here :D

Edited March 5, 2015 by Lord of Riva