aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I want something more formal, do better! Your wants in this matter are sadly irrelevant to me. The definition works for every purpose except rules-lawyering the **** out of it in an attempt to prove that political correctness is, ultimately, evil incarnate "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Racism as an ideology and acting racist based on those tenets is completely different from sociopaths trying to bully people with what happens to be the situational weakness. The same sociopaths could call people fat as well, are they fatist then? To go further, am i now a racist for calling George Carlin a honkey? Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. What? And this is why I don't do these discussions nowadays. You not being up-to-date with decades' worth of research into cognitive science is not something I can correct during the course of a random internet conversation. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."
BruceVC Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. I want something more formal, do better! So the definition may differ because its based on the word "political " which will differ from region to region and within cultures. So political correctness will be different in Saudi Arabia than Sweden...I think we all understand that But this is a Western forum where there are clear rules that are defined that you will not discriminate against people based on sexual orientation or race or sex or many other things So "political correctness " in this context is that you won't use offensive or derogatory comments when addressing these groups or encourage dislike of these groups through some discussion Thats just one example of what political correctness means "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Malcador Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Its more to do with the subtle changes to the forum environment that make many people uncomfortable, Malc this is not something new. You know the criticisms directed towards the forum by some where even that Obsidian lady developer didn't feel comfortable contributing towards discussions That thread also had issues with negativity on Obsidian sucking at developing or some other stuff rather than Offensive Things that the female developer felt driven off by, heh. Unless you want to consider stuff against a company politically incorrect, though. Still not convinced mass people are being driven off, and if that is even a problem in most cases - rather laughable what people get upset over (the micro-aggressions are truly the curse of our times). Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. Racism as an ideology marginalized ? Sure thing. But even you've now shifted the definition, it's still just a word to cudgel you with some times. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Still not convinced mass people are being driven off, and if that is even a problem in most cases - rather laughable what people get upset over (the micro-aggressions are truly the curse of our times). ...Said he, amply demonstrating why micro-agressions are so damn hard to deal with. Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. Racism as an ideology marginalized ? Sure thing. But even you've now shifted the definition, it's still just a word to cudgel you with some times. The extent of your lack of empathy never fails to amaze me. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I want something more formal, do better! Your wants in this matter are sadly irrelevant to me. The definition works for every purpose except rules-lawyering the **** out of it in an attempt to prove that political correctness is, ultimately, evil incarnate Even if an arbiter of political correctness deems that despite what you think is completely reasonable is actually an "-ism" because someone you don't know thought of it as that "-ism" and took offense. That's pretty much the thinking man's sado-masochism to me. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Malcador Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) ...Said he, amply demonstrating why micro-agressions are so damn hard to deal with. The extent of your lack of empathy never fails to amaze me. They are easy to deal with really, most of the time I read of people whining about them it is either due to a really thin skin or just melodrama. How am I lacking empathy ? It's still a bad thing to say to people, I've not said it is good to use - just that racist words are, for a non-trivial amount of instances, another stone to sling at people. Granted it's a bit heavier than calling someone a 'douchebag'. Edited February 17, 2015 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Racism as an ideology and acting racist based on those tenets is completely different from sociopaths trying to bully people with what happens to be the situational weakness. The same sociopaths could call people fat as well, are they fatist then? To go further, am i now a racist for calling George Carlin a honkey? Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. What? And this is why I don't do these discussions nowadays. You not being up-to-date with decades' worth of research into cognitive science is not something I can correct during the course of a random internet conversation. So what then? Should we leave it out to experts to police speech because they have the esoteric knowledge in a field that most people do not? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I want something more formal, do better! Your wants in this matter are sadly irrelevant to me. The definition works for every purpose except rules-lawyering the **** out of it in an attempt to prove that political correctness is, ultimately, evil incarnate Even if an arbiter of political correctness deems that despite what you think is completely reasonable is actually an "-ism" because someone you don't know thought of it as that "-ism" and took offense. That's pretty much the thinking man's sado-masochism to me. Solution: you listen to them explain why they feel you've wronged them. If their argument holds water, you apologize and make a mental note not to repeat what you did, because even if you think it's stupid, their feelings are more important to you than your freedom to use certain words (hell, I know I have a hard time cutting back on my usage of "Jesus ****ing Christ" and "retarded", but I still do it because members of my peer group find them tasteless). If their company is less valuable to you than your freedom to cuss as much as you want, however you want, you simply let them drop out of your life. Easy as that. 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 So what then? Should we leave it out to experts to police speech because they have the esoteric knowledge in a field that most people do not? Well, you could start by reading up on cognitive science; knowing how the human brain works is a fairly useful skillset to have anyway. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."
TrashMan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Political correctness in itself is unwelcoming to a large number of people. Freedom of speech means protecting the right of other people to say things YOU HATE. If you cannot do that, than you're not really for free speech. You merely pretend (or think) to be. I have no idea why people think that freedom of speech means people should be protected from the consequences of their actions. If you take a giant, steaming dump right on the top of your desk at work, you can rightfully expect to be fired. Making openly racist and sexist remarks is pretty much the societal equivalent of taking a giant, steaming dump right on the top of your desk. It's okay if you do it in private as long as you don't brag about it openly, but frowned upon in public. Trying to censor someone IS an action with consequences too. "Racist" and "sexist" is thought policing and deplorable too. Two wrongs don't make a right. * YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Political correctness in itself is unwelcoming to a large number of people. Freedom of speech means protecting the right of other people to say things YOU HATE. If you cannot do that, than you're not really for free speech. You merely pretend (or think) to be. I have no idea why people think that freedom of speech means people should be protected from the consequences of their actions. If you take a giant, steaming dump right on the top of your desk at work, you can rightfully expect to be fired. Making openly racist and sexist remarks is pretty much the societal equivalent of taking a giant, steaming dump right on the top of your desk. It's okay if you do it in private as long as you don't brag about it openly, but frowned upon in public. Trying to censor someone IS an action with consequences too. "Racist" and "sexist" is thought policing and deplorable too. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do elaborate. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."
TrashMan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 ...You do realize that you're effectively saying "by displaying racist attitudes and causing measurable harm* to the very people being discriminated against, you are not being racist, because you set out to cause harm to other people, too". Deontological ethics is fine and good when kept in the courtrooms and academic discussions, but for establishing general rules of conduct? Hell no. You need consequentialism for that. *For a given value of harm. Let's assume the cardiovascular problems resulting from increased stress count as "harm". In that case, does the stress of being denied to speak openly also constitute as harm? * YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. I want something more formal, do better! So the definition may differ because its based on the word "political " which will differ from region to region and within cultures. So political correctness will be different in Saudi Arabia than Sweden...I think we all understand that But this is a Western forum where there are clear rules that are defined that you will not discriminate against people based on sexual orientation or race or sex or many other things So "political correctness " in this context is that you won't use offensive or derogatory comments when addressing these groups or encourage dislike of these groups through some discussion Thats just one example of what political correctness means Ok, i will play nice here. How can a vibrant and open society grow if it depends on the sensibilities of the one feeling most offended? 5 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
TrashMan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Shirty sure would like this forum to be a boring place. If you define "boring" by "not populated by libertarian-leaning straight white men to the point of almost-exclusivity because everybody else finds it an unwelcoming environment", then yeah, sure, sign me up for boring. We need more boring. Alas, this is nothing more than a fantasy. Because the mythical "everybody else" doesn't exist. Case in point, you can find people of all races, skin colors, nationalities, religions and sexes LIKING the enviroment that you would probably find oh-so-horrible. * YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!
TrashMan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Still not convinced mass people are being driven off, and if that is even a problem in most cases - rather laughable what people get upset over (the micro-aggressions are truly the curse of our times). ...Said he, amply demonstrating why micro-agressions are so damn hard to deal with. Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. Racism as an ideology marginalized ? Sure thing. But even you've now shifted the definition, it's still just a word to cudgel you with some times. The extent of your lack of empathy never fails to amaze me. You are now triggering me with your micro-agression. I demand you aplogize. * YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!
Ineth Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 ?? How do you measure opinions in terms of being harmful in an objective way? People generally have goals [...] "Objectively harmful" in this case, obviously, means "counterproductive to the stated goal" [...] [...] if someone finds them to be such, they have a moral obligation to do something about it. No they don't, their only "obligation" to do so is an egoistical one to themselves (and "their goal" as you put it), not a moral one. The only moral obligation (if any) for an ethical person in such a situation, would be to respond to the stated opinion peacefully and fairly and put forth a reasonable counter-argument to try and convince the author of the opinion, or at least any bystanders and spectators, of its folly. Shutting down opposing opinions by force (whether of the violent or bureaucratic/institutional variety) never gives you the moral high ground, no matter how much feminists and other "progressive" liberals love to rationalize their intolerant and bigoted tactics by pretending it does. 5 "Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell
Gfted1 Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 A wild personal attack appears! Shocking. Lets stay focused on the topic and not the posters, please. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
TrashMan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Solution: you listen to them explain why they feel you've wronged them. If their argument holds water, you apologize and make a mental note not to repeat what you did, because even if you think it's stupid, their feelings are more important to you than your freedom to use certain words (hell, I know I have a hard time cutting back on my usage of "Jesus ****ing Christ" and "retarded", but I still do it because members of my peer group find them tasteless). If their company is less valuable to you than your freedom to cuss as much as you want, however you want, you simply let them drop out of your life. Easy as that. NO. If my feelings are not more important to them, then their feelings are not more important to me. F*** feelings and the special-brittle snoflakes with fragile psyches. What people need - what the entire culture needs - is thicker skin. Any any superficial idiot who wants to unfriend me because I don't use the exact vocabulaty he prefers can go. In fact, I'll show him the door. Good riddance to bad rubbish. 2 * YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I want something more formal, do better! Your wants in this matter are sadly irrelevant to me. The definition works for every purpose except rules-lawyering the **** out of it in an attempt to prove that political correctness is, ultimately, evil incarnate Even if an arbiter of political correctness deems that despite what you think is completely reasonable is actually an "-ism" because someone you don't know thought of it as that "-ism" and took offense. That's pretty much the thinking man's sado-masochism to me. Solution: you listen to them explain why they feel you've wronged them. If their argument holds water, you apologize and make a mental note not to repeat what you did, because even if you think it's stupid, their feelings are more important to you than your freedom to use certain words (hell, I know I have a hard time cutting back on my usage of "Jesus ****ing Christ" and "retarded", but I still do it because members of my peer group find them tasteless). If their company is less valuable to you than your freedom to cuss as much as you want, however you want, you simply let them drop out of your life. Easy as that. I do not associate with adults who have the audacity to tell me what to say and what to think, so i wouldn't know about the bolded part. But i think that i have mistakenly shaken hands with those kinds people at a dinner party or two, yuk. But what you're talking about here is within limits of freedom of association. What i am asking is why this is good for all society? Why is this solution better than using the ideal of freedom of speech? Does cognitive science tell us that human beings do not flourish mentally unless their speech and manners are led by a leader? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
BruceVC Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. I want something more formal, do better! So the definition may differ because its based on the word "political " which will differ from region to region and within cultures. So political correctness will be different in Saudi Arabia than Sweden...I think we all understand that But this is a Western forum where there are clear rules that are defined that you will not discriminate against people based on sexual orientation or race or sex or many other things So "political correctness " in this context is that you won't use offensive or derogatory comments when addressing these groups or encourage dislike of these groups through some discussion Thats just one example of what political correctness means Ok, i will play nice here. How can a vibrant and open society grow if it depends on the sensibilities of the one feeling most offended? Excellent question, but you are misunderstanding something. We don't concern ourselves with the feelings of minority groups, for example, because this helps us grow as a society. We do it to prevent us going backwards. In the Western world we should be striving for a society that is completely tolerant of all groups so if you allow offensive comments to run rampant on a forum you are taking that forum backwards...this applies to the general level of how a society is measured nowadays. So in summary societies don't grow based on how they treat victims of abuse but they can get taken backwards. Russia is a good example of this "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
dorkboy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 In some parts of the world people get sentenced to serious prison time and 1000 lashes for creating websites dedicated to democratic discourse. I think some times a little bit of perspective is in order. 1 This statement is false.
Malcador Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 "Their feelings are more important to you than your freedom to use certain words" No they're not. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Blarghagh Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. I want something more formal, do better! So the definition may differ because its based on the word "political " which will differ from region to region and within cultures. So political correctness will be different in Saudi Arabia than Sweden...I think we all understand that But this is a Western forum where there are clear rules that are defined that you will not discriminate against people based on sexual orientation or race or sex or many other things So "political correctness " in this context is that you won't use offensive or derogatory comments when addressing these groups or encourage dislike of these groups through some discussion Thats just one example of what political correctness means Ok, i will play nice here. How can a vibrant and open society grow if it depends on the sensibilities of the one feeling most offended? Excellent question, but you are misunderstanding something. We don't concern ourselves with the feelings of minority groups, for example, because this helps us grow as a society. We do it to prevent us going backwards. In the Western world we should be striving for a society that is completely tolerant of all groups so if you allow offensive comments to run rampant on a forum you are taking that forum backwards...this applies to the general level of how a society is measured nowadays. So in summary societies don't grow based on how they treat victims of abuse but they can get taken backwards. Russia is a good example of this Should we?
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. I want something more formal, do better! So the definition may differ because its based on the word "political " which will differ from region to region and within cultures. So political correctness will be different in Saudi Arabia than Sweden...I think we all understand that But this is a Western forum where there are clear rules that are defined that you will not discriminate against people based on sexual orientation or race or sex or many other things So "political correctness " in this context is that you won't use offensive or derogatory comments when addressing these groups or encourage dislike of these groups through some discussion Thats just one example of what political correctness means Ok, i will play nice here. How can a vibrant and open society grow if it depends on the sensibilities of the one feeling most offended? Excellent question, but you are misunderstanding something. We don't concern ourselves with the feelings of minority groups, for example, because this helps us grow as a society. We do it to prevent us going backwards. In the Western world we should be striving for a society that is completely tolerant of all groups so if you allow offensive comments to run rampant on a forum you are taking that forum backwards...this applies to the general level of how a society is measured nowadays. So in summary societies don't grow based on how they treat victims of abuse but they can get taken backwards. Russia is a good example of this Russia is not a free society with freedom of speech, so we cannot compare to that. But back to the point, is tolerance and political correctness virtues that people would die for, compared to other ideals? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
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