JadedWolf Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) It really depends what you mean with political correctness. If it means that people aren't allowed to point out a crime because it is perpetrated by a minority, then I think anyone will agree that it is silly. If it means that you should be able to say that all Pakistani are rapists because of the events described in the OP, then I think we're edging toward where saying such things are harmful. In the end though, forbidding people from saying things doesn't solve that people actually think certain things, so it doesn't really fix anything. It's a conundrum though. Let's say you were in charge of the Weimar republic, and you had the knowledge that you have today... Would you crack down on the Nazi party? Would you forbid "Mein Kampf"? Would you take mister funny moustache and throw him into the deepest dungeon you could find? I would be tempted to, personally. But wouldn't that be denying people free speech and democratic process? Edited February 17, 2015 by JadedWolf Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorkboy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think we can all appreciate the notion that picketing someone's funeral is a **** move, regardless of which opinion you have. Freedom of speech, while essential to a healthy society, shouldn't be seen as the absolute and only consideration - nor does it have to apply equally everywhere. You want to make a website where you put forth your views on everything from children's toys to geopolitics? That should be your right. You should have that liberty. But that doesn't mean other people should have to listen to your opinions, or have any moral or legal obligation to host your opinions on their own website. This website, afaik, belongs to Obsidian Entertainment. It is theirs to do with as they see fit. They may allow dissenting opinions that they don't agree with, but they have no obligation to do so. (At least, that's how it seems to me..) As for what is 'politically correct', I think that depends entirely on context and consensus. In Soviet Russia political corrects you (and no, you cannot make a website!) 1 This statement is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I am confused. (...) I really don't understand your reasoning of building communities with sets of goals, destructive opinions based on subjective experiences of the members, that in turn might be counterproductive in the eyes of the admin and/or the community? The confusion is completely warranted, since I wasn't talking about any of these things. My reasoning was along the lines of "if you want to build a community as big and welcoming as possible, then opinions that make the forum an unwelcoming place for a large-ish number of people are objectively harmful to your goal". Edited February 17, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknoman2 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 someone making stand up comedy said the best thing about political correctness the politicaly correct way to say "gypsies are all dirty thieves" is "roma are all dirty thieves", because calling them gypsies is racist. it doesnt matter that you call an entire ethinc group as "dirty thieves" as long as you use the "apropriate" name for them The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder. -Teknoman2- What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past? Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born! We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did. Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. That sentance precludes that you can somehow know the exact intent of another person. Which is not really possible unless you are a mind-reader. My reasoning was along the lines of "if you want to build a community as big and welcoming as possible, then opinions that make the forum an unwelcoming place for a large-ish number of people are objectively harmful to your goal". Political correctness in itself is unwelcoming to a large number of people. Freedom of speech means protecting the right of other people to say things YOU HATE. If you cannot do that, than you're not really for free speech. You merely pretend (or think) to be. Free speech is a double-edged sword, it has two sides to it, and both must be accepted. Yet some people fail to grasp that simple truth and think they can remove one side without affecting the other. You can't. * YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. That sentance precludes that you can somehow know the exact intent of another person. Which is not really possible unless you are a mind-reader. It was also directly answering to the statement that "trolls use [racist/sexist remarks] to rile people up which is not racist/sexist/whatever in itself". Which is right there in the quote box at the top in plain sight, making your reaction extremely puzzling. My reasoning was along the lines of "if you want to build a community as big and welcoming as possible, then opinions that make the forum an unwelcoming place for a large-ish number of people are objectively harmful to your goal". Political correctness in itself is unwelcoming to a large number of people. Freedom of speech means protecting the right of other people to say things YOU HATE. If you cannot do that, than you're not really for free speech. You merely pretend (or think) to be. I have no idea why people think that freedom of speech means people should be protected from the consequences of their actions. If you take a giant, steaming dump right on the top of your desk at work, you can rightfully expect to be fired. Making openly racist and sexist remarks is pretty much the societal equivalent of taking a giant, steaming dump right on the top of your desk. It's okay if you do it in private as long as you don't brag about it openly, but frowned upon in public. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. Of course it's not racist. Otherwise all of rap music would racist/sexist/and so on. Without any context of it's use, then they are just words. After all, all that it takes is one person not being offended for it to not being objectively offensive. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. That sentance precludes that you can somehow know the exact intent of another person. Which is not really possible unless you are a mind-reader. I don't understand why you guys are fixated on intent in the first place. Context is important, intent is not. Racist things said by a comedian in a satirical commentary? Context informs how it should be perceived. Troll saying racist things? No context to inform how it should be perceived, just person saying racist things therefore being racist regardless of whether they identify as such. I'm surprised to see this kind of post-modern nonsense coming from you guys 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 While i can understand how someone whishes to build a forum on the tenets of political correctness, whatever they may be, as it is within their right to handle their community as they wish, but should this be implemented through all of society? I mean, if the idea is so great in itself, then why not? Should society be politically correct? Why is that better than unregulated free speech? What is the end game? a SWOT analysis perhaps? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. That sentance precludes that you can somehow know the exact intent of another person. Which is not really possible unless you are a mind-reader. I don't understand why you guys are fixated on intent in the first place. Context is important, intent is not. Racist things said by a comedian in a satirical commentary? Context informs how it should be perceived. Troll saying racist things? No context to inform how it should be perceived, just person saying racist things therefore being racist regardless of whether they identify as such. I'm surprised to see this kind of post-modern nonsense coming from you guys What is George Carlin in this context? 3 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. Of course it's not racist. Otherwise all of rap music would racist/sexist/and so on. Without any context of it's use, then they are just words. ...You do realize that you're effectively saying "by displaying racist attitudes and causing measurable harm* to the very people being discriminated against, you are not being racist, because you set out to cause harm to other people, too". Deontological ethics is fine and good when kept in the courtrooms and academic discussions, but for establishing general rules of conduct? Hell no. You need consequentialism for that. *For a given value of harm. Let's assume the cardiovascular problems resulting from increased stress count as "harm". "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 What is George Carlin in this context? Surprising as it may sound, comedians are not the ultimate arbiters in matters of ethics. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 While i can understand how someone whishes to build a forum on the tenets of political correctness, whatever they may be, as it is within their right to handle their community as they wish, but should this be implemented through all of society? I mean, if the idea is so great in itself, then why not? Define "political correctness". "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Shirty sure would like this forum to be a boring place. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Shirty sure would like this forum to be a boring place. If you define "boring" by "not populated by libertarian-leaning straight white men to the point of almost-exclusivity because everybody else finds it an unwelcoming environment", then yeah, sure, sign me up for boring. We need more boring. Edited February 17, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 While i can understand how someone whishes to build a forum on the tenets of political correctness, whatever they may be, as it is within their right to handle their community as they wish, but should this be implemented through all of society? I mean, if the idea is so great in itself, then why not? Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. Not really, it's just some one throwing a larger bomb than calling them an **** or insulting them some other way. Are just words to bludgeon people with, after all. Racism is a lot more than just saying some words which is just being rude. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Shirty sure would like this forum to be a boring place. No he actually makes loads of sense but as usual people look to dismiss that type of insight with hyperbole and strange definitions of what "politically correct " means. They refuse to recognise how political correctness actually benefits us all "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Shirty sure would like this forum to be a boring place. If you define "boring" by "not populated by libertarian-leaning straight white men to the point of almost-exclusivity because everybody else finds it an unwelcoming environment", then yeah, sure, sign me up for boring. We need more boring. You've polled the race and political leanings of this forum ? What exactly are you whining about here - was there some drive to purge the place of blacks or communists or gays ? No he actually makes loads of sense but as usual people look to dismiss that type of insight with hyperbole and strange definitions of what "politically correct " means. They refuse to recognise how political correctness actually benefits us all Funnily enough I don't think anyone's defined it. What is it to you then and how does that "benefit us all" (amazing how propagandist that saying is, heh) Edited February 17, 2015 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. Not really, it's just some one throwing a larger bomb than calling them an **** or insulting them some other way. Are just words to bludgeon people with, after all. Racism is a lot more than just saying some words which is just being rude. The idea that racism runs on intent blatantly flies in the face of everything the last, say, 30 years' worth of developments in cognitive science has taught us. Edited February 17, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, come on. That can easily be applied to anything since we cannot even agree on what racist/sexist speech is to begin with, neither do we know the context. Trolls use it to rile people up and **** use it try to put people down, which is not for example racist/sexist/whatever in itself. Wait, so if someone is being racist for the sole purpose of angering people, it's not racist? Even though, logically, the people most likely to be angered by said display of racism are members of the race in question? That's some shaky logic there, methinks. Of course it's not racist. Otherwise all of rap music would racist/sexist/and so on. Without any context of it's use, then they are just words. ...You do realize that you're effectively saying "by displaying racist attitudes and causing measurable harm* to the very people being discriminated against, you are not being racist, because you set out to cause harm to other people, too". Deontological ethics is fine and good when kept in the courtrooms and academic discussions, but for establishing general rules of conduct? Hell no. You need consequentialism for that. *For a given value of harm. Let's assume the cardiovascular problems resulting from increased stress count as "harm". Whu? Racism as an ideology and acting racist based on those tenets is completely different from sociopaths trying to bully people with what happens to be the situational weakness. The same sociopaths could call people fat as well, are they fatist then? To go further, am i now a racist for calling George Carlin a honkey? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Shirty sure would like this forum to be a boring place. If you define "boring" by "not populated by libertarian-leaning straight white men to the point of almost-exclusivity because everybody else finds it an unwelcoming environment", then yeah, sure, sign me up for boring. We need more boring. You've polled the race and political leanings of this forum ? What exactly are you whining about here - was there some drive to purge the place of blacks or communists or gays ? No he actually makes loads of sense but as usual people look to dismiss that type of insight with hyperbole and strange definitions of what "politically correct " means. They refuse to recognise how political correctness actually benefits us all Funnily enough I don't think anyone's defined it. What is it to you then and how does that "benefit us all" (amazing how propagandist that saying is, heh) Its more to do with the subtle changes to the forum environment that make many people uncomfortable, Malc this is not something new. You know the criticisms directed towards the forum by some where even that Obsidian lady developer didn't feel comfortable contributing towards discussions Edited February 17, 2015 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Racism as an ideology and acting racist based on those tenets is completely different from sociopaths trying to bully people with what happens to be the situational weakness. The same sociopaths could call people fat as well, are they fatist then? To go further, am i now a racist for calling George Carlin a honkey? Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. 1 "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Define "political correctness". I have been asking this for the last two pages. Please define it yourself and we take it from there. And I did! "Expecting people to not behave like racist/sexist/etc. ****wads" is pretty much my definition. I want something more formal, do better! "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Racism as an ideology and acting racist based on those tenets is completely different from sociopaths trying to bully people with what happens to be the situational weakness. The same sociopaths could call people fat as well, are they fatist then? To go further, am i now a racist for calling George Carlin a honkey? Racism as an ideology is pretty much marginalized into irrelevance. Racism as an institution, an emergent property of cultural inertia? Very much alive and kicking. What? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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