Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity

[PrimeJunta]

You wouldn't be able to do that in Icewind Dale 2 either, pretty sure you have to act very bluntly as a Paladin in IWD2, you can't accept certain rewards and you have to say certain dialogue options to certain people IIRC.

I don't care when it's IWD, as it's clear from the start that it's a linear dungeon crawl.

 

I do care in a quest-based game. If there's no choice and no acknowledgement of choice, I'm just a glorified errand-boy.

[Sensuki]

Nah what I meant was that a lot of people see Paladins in D&D as like that because of the Lawful Good alignment. That was why I mentioned it.

[PrimeJunta]

You guys are really good at rationalizing away the huge plot holes, area design inconsistencies, and quest omissions though.

 

If you get to do that, then I get to say that my god ordered my paladin to go undercover and eliminate both groups of thieves. Neener neener.

[Malekith]

@PrimeJunta

Just play a sorcerer. It's one of the most fun classes to play, you can compair the magic system of PoE with BG2, and removes the option of changing spellbooks every other fight, forcing you to make with what you have. So your dislike for metagame knowlege will be mitigated somewhat

[prodigydancer]

If you read this thread, you'd find out that I attempted to have my paladin infiltrate the Shadow Thieves and Mae'varis's outfit in order to rat both out to the Cowled Wizards so they would take them down.

You're acting on a premise that either the Cowled Wizards are your friends (the ending scene of the prologue offers some strong evidence against this theory) or at least they're an LG-friendly law enforcement group (again, there's no evidence in game that would support such point of view). CW themselves are mages and are known to sell magic use permits to anyone who can pay. Does this look like a fair practice? I'd say it's legalized bribery and abuse of power. And why would they care about a thieves guild? There's nothing in the game that suggests they would.

 

There are more shades of gray in BG2 than you want to acknowledge. You must get your hands dirty to save someone dear to you. The difference is how dirty they'll be but there is no Disney-style perfect solution to everything. Sorry.

 

You guys are really good at rationalizing away the huge plot holes, area design inconsistencies, and quest omissions though.

And you're good at claiming that anything that doesn't work the way you want it to work is a plot hole or a quest omission. Edited January 11, 2015 by prodigydancer

[Namutree]

You guys are really good at rationalizing away the huge plot holes, area design inconsistencies, and quest omissions though.

 

If you get to do that, then I get to say that my god ordered my paladin to go undercover and eliminate both groups of thieves. Neener neener.

You can say that. RP however you want.

[PrimeJunta]

Anyway, forget Iggy the Paladin. I started over. Elven mage/thief, longsword+longbow (duh), neutral evil. Since I had to crawl through Irenicus's digs again, I decided to make it at least a little different, so I told Jaheira and Minsc to go boil an egg and did ith with Imoen only. Didn't fight the cambion because lousy THAC0 but cheerfully murdered everything else. Leveled up like blue blazes, and it's actually more enjoyable to play with just two toons since the pathfinding doesn't trip me up so much. It was not bad actually; let rip with spells at every occasion, then rested for 14 days to heal up. Lots of backstabbing also.

I'm hoping this build addresses a few of the secondary issues detracting from my enjoyment:

• Stealth, because she actually can into sneaking. So far, much less irritating. A couple more thief levels and it'll be fine.
• Roleplaying aspects, because neutral evil can basically do whatever. So far the evil dialog options were not bad actually. Choice acknowledged there at least.
• Spell memorization, because INT 18 makes it much less annoying.

I will also see how it feels with a three-member party: fighter and cleric in addition to me. I will probably spoil myself a bit to see where I can pick up Viconia since I remember what a prat Anomen is, and recruit Korgan Bloodaxe from the Coronet to take point. That ought to make the pathfinding less annoying and ought to let me level up nice and fast too, which is always good for a multiclass.

 

Shall I continue the commentary here, or make another thread?

[Luckmann]

Eh, no reason for a new thread, really, this thread is pretty much unsalvageable anyway in terms of PoE relevance.

[Malekith]

PrimeJunta, on 11 Jan 2015 - 1:37 PM, said:PrimeJunta, on 11 Jan 2015 - 1:37 PM, said:

You guys are really good at rationalizing away the huge plot holes, area design inconsistencies, and quest omissions though.

 

If you get to do that, then I get to say that my god ordered my paladin to go undercover and eliminate both groups of thieves. Neener neener.

Players choice isn't everything. I agree that BG2 is limited in that aspect, but i dislike the philoshophy that Player choice trumps anything. What your paladin wanted doesn't matter.

What matters is what Rayic Gethras wants, and that's you dead as soon as you stepped to his House.

I always believed that the NPCs wants should overide the player's wants as far as they are concerned.

 

As an aside, have you played Age of Decadense? There is a Quest that illustrates exactly what i'm talking about. At some point (early game, when the game has made clear that your character is nothing special), a shady person asks you to follow him in a dark alley as he wants to offer you a job/sell you something/whatever.

But if you do, he and a couple of other muggers ambush you and try kill you. And unless you character was built as a combat monster, it was guaranteed death/game over.

There was much bitching that you couldn't talk your way out of it with a diplomat character, and it forced a game over in 90% of the players without warning that they walked into a dead end, or that the fight was unwinnable.

 

And the devs answer (which i agree 100% with) was that:

There is no reason for them to bargain. Everything they want from you they can take it, and they don't care about anything you have to say.This "every situation must have a solution for every built" even when it makes no sense is gamey, unrealistic and comes as forced.

If your character isn't good at violence/can't protect himself, he has no job following strangers in dark alleys. The situation was a fairly obvious setup, so your character died because you,the Player, is an idiot. Next time you should think before taking quests.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Malekith

[Jarmo]

Anyway, forget Iggy the Paladin. I started over. Elven mage/thief, longsword+longbow (duh), neutral evil. 

 

Shall I continue the commentary here, or make another thread?

 

If I remember correctly, at high levels multiclass is basically a trap.

If you go all the way to throne, you'll be something like 10-20 levels behind of what single class would have.

 

Maybe a new thread, since this is already 10 pages of propaganda.

 

---

Yeah, ok. With a small party it should be fine.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Jarmo

[Sensuki]

Players choice isn't everything. I agree that BG2 is limited in that aspect, but i dislike the philoshophy that Player choice trumps anything. What your paladin wanted doesn't matter.

What matters is what Rayic Gethras wants, and that's you dead as soon as you stepped to his House.

I always believed that the NPCs wants should overide the player's wants as far as they are concerned.

 

As an aside, have you played Age of Decadense? There is a Quest that illustrates exactly what i'm talking about. At some point (early game, when the game has made clear that your character is nothing special), a shady person asks you to follow him in a dark alley as he wants to offer you a job/sell you something/whatever.

But if you do, he and a couple of other muggers ambush you and try kill you. And unless you character was built as a combat monster, it was guaranteed death/game over.

There was much bitching that you couldn't talk your way out of it with a diplomat character, and it forced a game over in 90% of the players without warning that they walked into a dead end, or that the fight was unwinnable.

 

And the devs answer (which i agree 100% with) was that:

There is no reason for them to bergain. Everything they want from you they can take it, and they don't care about anything you have to say.This "every situation must have a solution for every built" even when it makes no sense is gamey, unrealistic and comes as forced.

If your character isn't goot at violence/can't protect himself, he has no job following strangers in dark alleys. The situation was a fairly obvious setup, so your character died because you,the Player, is an idiot. Next time you should think before taking quests.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I meant too. BG2 isn't all about player choice.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, two votes: one for new thread, one for not. I vote new thread, so I'll make one. :sigh:

[prodigydancer]

As an aside, have you played Age of Decadense? There is a Quest that illustrates exactly what i'm talking about. At some point (early game, when the game has made clear that your character is nothing special), a shady person asks you to follow him in a dark alley as he wants to offer you a job/sell you something/whatever.

But if you do, he and a couple of other muggers ambush you and try kill you. And unless you character was built as a combat monster, it was guaranteed death/game over.

There was much bitching that you couldn't talk your way out of it with a diplomat character, and it forced a game over in 90% of the players without warning that they walked into a dead end, or that the fight was unwinnable.

 

And the devs answer (which i agree 100% with) was that:

There is no reason for them to bargain. Everything they want from you they can take it, and they don't care about anything you have to say.This "every situation must have a solution for every built" even when it makes no sense is gamey, unrealistic and comes as forced.

If your character isn't good at violence/can't protect himself, he has no job following strangers in dark alleys. The situation was a fairly obvious setup, so your character died because you,the Player, is an idiot. Next time you should think before taking quests.

I'm somewhat divided on this example. It goes against every role-player's instinct that says "stick your nose into everything or you'll miss out on something interesting most likely". So people are understandable upset about being punished for doing what they've learned to do by playing other CRPGs. On the other hand it's refreshingly cruel and unforgiving encounters are often the most memorable.

 

Since "game over" probably means "load a save" I'd say it's not a big deal.

Edited January 11, 2015 by prodigydancer

[Malekith]

Sensuki, on 11 Jan 2015 - 2:18 PM, said:Sensuki, on 11 Jan 2015 - 2:18 PM, said:

 

Malekith, on 11 Jan 2015 - 2:10 PM, said:Malekith, on 11 Jan 2015 - 2:10 PM, said:

Players choice isn't everything. I agree that BG2 is limited in that aspect, but i dislike the philoshophy that Player choice trumps anything. What your paladin wanted doesn't matter.

What matters is what Rayic Gethras wants, and that's you dead as soon as you stepped to his House.

I always believed that the NPCs wants should overide the player's wants as far as they are concerned.

 

As an aside, have you played Age of Decadense? There is a Quest that illustrates exactly what i'm talking about. At some point (early game, when the game has made clear that your character is nothing special), a shady person asks you to follow him in a dark alley as he wants to offer you a job/sell you something/whatever.

But if you do, he and a couple of other muggers ambush you and try kill you. And unless you character was built as a combat monster, it was guaranteed death/game over.

There was much bitching that you couldn't talk your way out of it with a diplomat character, and it forced a game over in 90% of the players without warning that they walked into a dead end, or that the fight was unwinnable.

 

And the devs answer (which i agree 100% with) was that:

There is no reason for them to bergain. Everything they want from you they can take it, and they don't care about anything you have to say.This "every situation must have a solution for every built" even when it makes no sense is gamey, unrealistic and comes as forced.

If your character isn't goot at violence/can't protect himself, he has no job following strangers in dark alleys. The situation was a fairly obvious setup, so your character died because you,the Player, is an idiot. Next time you should think before taking quests.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I meant too. BG2 isn't all about player choice.

 

Well, idealy the player would be able to have their choice expressed, and have it recognised even if it gets ignored. Having Junta's paladin be able to tell Rayic about the Shadow Thieves, and Rayic saying he will see to them after he kills the player would be optimal, and would require a single line of dialog. And i believe PrimJunta would be less agravated.

As it would be a cool touch in AoD to allow the Player to beg/try to convince the muggers and have them laugh at his face.

Or my personal favorite, allow BruceV to hit on every companion he wants, only to have them refuse, laugh at his face, cheat on him. Half the BSN would commit suicide

Edited January 11, 2015 by Malekith

[PrimeJunta]

@Malekith Yup, that would be entirely satisfactory. I never demanded that my plan should work, I just hoped the attempt would be acknowledged.

 

That's what quest design is all about.

[Stun]

If you read this thread, you'd find out that I attempted to have my paladin infiltrate the Shadow Thieves and Mae'varis's outfit in order to rat both out to the Cowled Wizards so they would take them down. The game did not let me, and several people on this thread objected loudly that a paladin couldn't do that to start with. One of them went as far as to say that accepting to work for Bloodscalp would have been an automatic fall from grace in PnP.

 

I.e., it's not my idea of what a paladin can or can't do that you're arguing with.

Then we're at an impasse. There isn't advice to give on something like this...because we don't know your mind. All we know is that BG2 is high fantasy, and it's rooted in the Forgotten Realms setting where Paladins are not as free-willed/individualistic as they might be in Junta's opinion. So...Is that a flaw with BG2? No, not really. Especially since the game DOES let you take down the Shadow Thieves. (it's part of the game's main plot). But it involves siding with the ENEMIES of the shadow thieves, and Junta, that's not the Cowled Wizards. It's Bodhi's vampire clan. But Again, you're a *Paladin* and BG2 will punish you if you play out of character as a paladin... as in, you'll become Fallen if you side with a friggin Vampire faction.

 

And NO, that's not a flaw either, nor is it bad quest design/writing. It's the opposite. It's TRUE role playing. The kind that modern games have forsaken in favor of the bland and insulting "ok, lets not punish the poor sensitive player for his build choices".

 

Incidently, if you wish to be a shill for the Cowled wizards, the game lets you do that too. Go to the government district and seek out Tolgerias...then do his quest and take his side, Paladin. I dare you

Edited January 11, 2015 by Stun

[Jarmo]

 

Is Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition worth it over BG2 with Mods? I've heard some good with the bad and vice versa.

 

Playing it right now. It's not bad - I mean, it's still BG2 - but it's probably not worth the price tag.

 

Don't have it, but I'd say if I were to invest 50hrs into the game,

I'd invest €10 (or whatever it's going for right now) as well.

[sibakruom]

Don't have it, but I'd say if I were to invest 50hrs into the game,

I'd invest €10 (or whatever it's going for right now) as well.

 

In a vacuum, yes, BG2EE is worth its 20€ price on Steam. But the vanilla BG2+ToB compilation is available on GOG for 8€.

 

To be fair, I just realised I completely forgot to mention the EE also adds another campaign, separate from the Bhaalspawn saga. I don't plan to try it anytime soon, so I can't comment on how good or how long it is. I think it's much more combat focused, about fighting in an arena, and we must create the whole party like in IWD.

[Blarghagh]

I think that since there's a part 2, this thread has outlived it's usefulness. Take it to part 2, guys.