Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity

[PrimeJunta]

Thank you. Point conceded, I was playing my paladin wrong.

[archangel979]

 

Only thing wrong here is people like you steering development of PoE which is not supposed to be a successor to games you like but IE games which it seems are not your favorite.

If I had control over the forums, I would present a questioner to anyone posting here with 40 questions about things from IE games and you needed to be correct in at least 90% of them.

 

What, IWD and PS:T aren't IE games now?

 

Where in my mentioning IE games did I say IWD and PST are not IE games?

But PoE is not IWD or PST, it will be all 3 but mostly BG games. For pure PST experience will we get a better game.

[jones092201@gmail.com]

This whole thread seems to be a guy who played 5% of bg2 arguing with people who've played 5% of POE about which game is better.

( I take the % from a post above).

 

5% may be enough to to have an idea of game play, (though in either case, you've not seen all spells, equipment, etc) but it's not enough to make claims about the quality of the writing, narrative structure, pacing, etc. if you read 5% of lord of the rings, (or any novel) can you really make a claim about it?

 

Prima- you'll miss a good game if you quit now, but I'd suggest not focusing on the negatives and the posting about them. Play through first

[PrimeJunta]

Where in my mentioning IE games did I say IWD and PST are not IE games?

But PoE is not IWD or PST, it will be all 3 but mostly BG games. For pure PST experience will we get a better game.

 

You were saying that I didn't like IE games. That's not true, I liked IWD and PS:T a lot.

 

I also liked some things about BG1 and BG2, even if in BG1 it was about fifty-fifty between the positives and the negatives, and BG2 about 30-70 positives-negatives. Namely, I liked the exploration of BG1, and I like the sheer breadth of stuff in BG2. (I also found it a good deal more engaging than BG1, generally speaking.)

 

I think I would like BG2 a great deal if only the Athkatla pacing was changed to be more like BG1, the quests were spread out so that the lower-level ones were easier to discover than the higher-level ones, and you could not unknowingly take on timed content while another timer was running. I do like it that it's possible to go straight to a higher-level quest, but that's a decision I want to make knowingly.

 

I'm sure it would be entirely feasible to mod that BTW. With those adjustments, I could put up with the other irritations, I'm pretty sure.

[archangel979]

It was more about arguing about 5% of BG2.

Comparing what he is playing with PoE beta is unfair to both Bg2 and release version of PoE.

[PrimeJunta]

Prima- you'll miss a good game if you quit now, but I'd suggest not focusing on the negatives and the posting about them. Play through first

 

Nah. I've played enough to know that it's not up to my standards.

[Shallow]

@Shallow IWD1 is IMO much better than IWD2. It has less... make that, almost no filler combat, the maps are far more polished, and it maintains tension better.

Mind defining what filler combat means to you (not trying to start an argument about a game I haven't played here, but everyone's definition of filler combat is different)? Secondly, I really enjoy the increased levels of character customization in IWD2, from what I understand due to the AD&D 2 rulesets all other IE games than IWD2 have the same lack of character customization BG had, right? Lastly, neither BG2 nor IWD feature things like modal abilities, right?

[PrimeJunta]

By "filler combat" I mean stuff like facing mob after mob of goblins, then orcs, then barbarians etc., where each fight is won by repeating the same tactics as before.

 

There is very little character customization in IWD as it uses the AD&D2 ruleset. No modal abilities.

[archangel979]

 

Where in my mentioning IE games did I say IWD and PST are not IE games?

But PoE is not IWD or PST, it will be all 3 but mostly BG games. For pure PST experience will we get a better game.

 

You were saying that I didn't like IE games. That's not true, I liked IWD and PS:T a lot.

 

I also liked some things about BG1 and BG2, even if in BG1 it was about fifty-fifty between the positives and the negatives, and BG2 about 30-70 positives-negatives. Namely, I liked the exploration of BG1, and I like the sheer breadth of stuff in BG2. (I also found it a good deal more engaging than BG1, generally speaking.)

 

I think I would like BG2 a great deal if only the Athkatla pacing was changed to be more like BG1, the quests were spread out so that the lower-level ones were easier to discover than the higher-level ones, and you could not unknowingly take on timed content while another timer was running. I do like it that it's possible to go straight to a higher-level quest, but that's a decision I want to make knowingly.

 

I'm sure it would be entirely feasible to mod that BTW. With those adjustments, I could put up with the other irritations, I'm pretty sure.

 

IWD has more simple combat overall. It does not let players approach combat in different ways, often creates difficulty through sheer numbers and not smarter enemies. Its spellcasters are a non-challenge most of the time. In PnP when players fight enemy spellcasters they will be more like in Bg2 95% of the time with those 5% them being surprise for whatever reason and not having Teleport ready. IWD in comparison is basically D&D Diablo. PoE was never meant to replicate even a part of PST. All they can get from PST is more mature writing and more complex companions.

The rest is BG. BG is center and core of PoE.

Edited January 11, 2015 by archangel979

[jones092201@gmail.com]

 

Prima- you'll miss a good game if you quit now, but I'd suggest not focusing on the negatives and the posting about them. Play through first

 

 

Nah. I've played enough to know that it's not up to my standards.

Can you define your standard? And not in vague terms. But using specific examples from crpgs? I'm not trying to flame you, but I can't figure out what you would be comparing this too.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

 

Surprise, surprise.

 

This is basically what you've always said about Baldur's Gate 2 - every time me and you butt heads on the topic. So, why didn't you just post all this in your Op from the start?

 

Because Sensuki had taught me IE combat with IWD, and I realized I had been doing it wrong. So I figured maybe I was mistaken about BG2 too, and wanted to give it a fresh try. 

 

Edit: The writing I was pretty sure about and didn't expect my opinion to change on that. However I thought that my views on the hard counters and save-or-die was due just to me playing it badly. Now I know that that's not the case. 

 

Obviously I'm not as good as you guys who have played it through a dozen times or more, but I'm no long floundering, and I am finding solutions to the fights rather than cheesing them. And it still requires metagame knowledge and trial-and-error. Unlike almost all of IWD, I may add.

 

It is, of course, gratifying -- at a certain level -- to find that I was right all along. However, I would have preferred to be wrong, and not have spent a quite a lot of time on something I ultimately did not enjoy.

 

Only thing wrong here is people like you steering development of PoE which is not supposed to be a successor to games you like but IE games which it seems are not your favorite.

If I had control over the forums, I would present a questioner to anyone posting here with 40 questions about things from IE games and you needed to be correct in at least 90% of them.

If you would ever be in the opportunity to become the leader of a totalitarian regime, you'd be great at it.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Quetzalcoatl

[PrimeJunta]

IWD has much simple combat overall. It does not let players approach combat in different ways, often creates difficulty through sheer numbers and not smarter enemies. Its spellcasters are a non-challenge most of the time. In PnP when players fight enemy spellcasters they will be more like in Bg2 95% of the time with those 5% them being surprise for whatever reason and not having Teleport ready. IWD in comparison is basically D&D Diablo. PoE was never meant to replicate even a part of PST. All they can get from PST is more mature writing and more complex companions.

The rest is BG. BG is center and core of PoE.

 

If it's BG/2 with better writing and my pet annoyances removed -- and so far it appears to be just that, more or less -- then I'll certainly love it.

[archangel979]

 

 

 

Surprise, surprise.

 

This is basically what you've always said about Baldur's Gate 2 - every time me and you butt heads on the topic. So, why didn't you just post all this in your Op from the start?

 

Because Sensuki had taught me IE combat with IWD, and I realized I had been doing it wrong. So I figured maybe I was mistaken about BG2 too, and wanted to give it a fresh try. 

 

Edit: The writing I was pretty sure about and didn't expect my opinion to change on that. However I thought that my views on the hard counters and save-or-die was due just to me playing it badly. Now I know that that's not the case. 

 

Obviously I'm not as good as you guys who have played it through a dozen times or more, but I'm no long floundering, and I am finding solutions to the fights rather than cheesing them. And it still requires metagame knowledge and trial-and-error. Unlike almost all of IWD, I may add.

 

It is, of course, gratifying -- at a certain level -- to find that I was right all along. However, I would have preferred to be wrong, and not have spent a quite a lot of time on something I ultimately did not enjoy.

 

Only thing wrong here is people like you steering development of PoE which is not supposed to be a successor to games you like but IE games which it seems are not your favorite.

If I had control over the forums, I would present a questioner to anyone posting here with 40 questions about things from IE games and you needed to be correct in at least 90% of them.

 

If you would ever be in the opportunity to become the leader of a totalitarian regime, you'd be great at it.

 

Tnx. That is a great compliment coming from you

[Shallow]

By "filler combat" I mean stuff like facing mob after mob of goblins, then orcs, then barbarians etc., where each fight is won by repeating the same tactics as before.

Personally, I like facing hordes of weaker enemies on one occasion and a few strong enemies on another, and on a third occasion facing a mixture thereof, I will say that I dislike that every single lower level boss type enemy just turned into a horde enemy later on, and I don't feel like I've really had a good boss fight with fewer but much stronger enemies yet, the filler combat has however mostly been very fun and engaging so far though(minus a few recent exceptions I hope won't become the rule).

[PrimeJunta]

 

 

Prima- you'll miss a good game if you quit now, but I'd suggest not focusing on the negatives and the posting about them. Play through first

 

Nah. I've played enough to know that it's not up to my standards.

Can you define your standard? And not in vague terms. But using specific examples from crpgs? I'm not trying to flame you, but I can't figure out what you would be comparing this too.

 

I can list cRPG's I've thought have been worth playing for various reasons: PS:T, IWD, Fallout 1/2/NV, Arcanum, NWN: MotB, NWN: SoZ, Gothic 2, Morrowind, The Witcher/2, KOTOR/2, ToEE, Jade Empire, Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall.

 

I can also list cRPG's I've thought have been more frustrating, dull, or otherwise flawed than enjoyable: Oblivion, IWD2, DA:O, DA:I, ME1-2-3 (occasional moments of brilliance aside), FO3, Gothic 3.

 

I can't define it any better than that. BG1 and 2 are both in the second bin. It may yet move into the first. I haven't ruled out another shot at it.

[jones092201@gmail.com]

 

 

 

Prima- you'll miss a good game if you quit now, but I'd suggest not focusing on the negatives and the posting about them. Play through first

 

Nah. I've played enough to know that it's not up to my standards.

Can you define your standard? And not in vague terms. But using specific examples from crpgs? I'm not trying to flame you, but I can't figure out what you would be comparing this too.

I can list cRPG's I've thought have been worth playing for various reasons: PS:T, IWD, Fallout 1/2/NV, Arcanum, NWN: MotB, NWN: SoZ, Gothic 2, Morrowind, The Witcher/2, KOTOR/2, ToEE, Jade Empire, Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall.

 

I can also list cRPG's I've thought have been more frustrating, dull, or otherwise flawed than enjoyable: Oblivion, IWD2, DA:O, DA:I, ME1-2-3 (occasional moments of brilliance aside), FO3, Gothic 3.

 

I can't define it any better than that. BG1 and 2 are both in the second bin. It may yet move into the first. I haven't ruled out another shot at it.

So it seems like 5% of kotor 2 would be peragus, and 5% of kotor would be the endar spire. Is either of those representative of the whole game? By that same token, I don't remember much great writing in the first 5% of iwd or morrowind.

Similarly, the origins in da:o were absolutely amazing and unique, and fallout 3 had a reasonable opening.

 

Point is not to say you should like bg2, but the small amount of it you've played doesn't give you a good indication of the narrative or even the way battles play out later.

Edited January 11, 2015 by jones092201@gmail.com

[Malekith]

Stop giving Junta trouble for his opinion. It's entirely valid, and he said his reasons just fine. They are the same reasons why i like the game, and consider IWD's combat meh. And PoE's combat terrible. 

And two-five hours playtime are more than enough to realise if you like the gameplay or not.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The writing is cheesy? You wake up in a laboratory where you and your childhood friend are being tortured. Stumbling through this wizards laboratory of horrors a biological test subject begs for death, a companion finds her husband eviscerated, and an insane clone of your captor's long-lost love goes berserk on you, all the while trying to survive and navigate the magical minions, denizens, and hazards of this dungeon. That's just the opening. Aerie is supposed to be adolescent and naive, Jaheria is supposed to be domineering, and...where else was Minsc going to hide his beloved animal companion? He had to improvise!

 

Too many quests? Oh, no! Too much gameplay! Too many potential adventures! You are aware that you're not actually forced to seek out all of them right? If done correctly, you can have every coin you need before even leaving the Promenade. You didn't even do the carnival tent correctly. Most of the monsters can be very easily vanquished with simple spells or a single theif ability. Aerie actually warns you about their nature and gives you a major hint how. She even has several spells and an an ability to solve the entire dungeon.  A couple of the monsters are immune to magical weapons, but all of them can be avoided or ignored, they can be turned, killed with magic directly, or killed by one of the several magical weapons already come to your possession by the time you've left Chateau de Irenicus. Holy-hand-holding Batman!

 

The Lilarcor thing was great! The sewer had some decent battles, traps to keep you on your toes, a riddle quest, a powerful and iconic weapon, and even a back entrance to another quest! How great is that? All of this in just a tiny foot note that could easily be missed. In the words of said Lilarcor, I've got some choice words of advice from you about playing Baldur's Gate: "Choke up, dolt, your grip is all wrong!"

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Great seeing players complain about games and blame those games, when they should be looking at themselves first.

 

 

... annnd ... here's another of my pet peeves: the trap weapon choices. I'm really nervous about this one. I want to pick another two-handed weapon because I already have a pip in two-handed weapon style, and also it makes it easy to switch between main and ranged. But which one? I've been bit in the posterior with bad weapon proficiencly choices before.

That's a non issue in BG2 and you know it.

 

 

Which is all beside the point. My beef is with the way that particular encounter was set up: with the orogs and the unnamed slaver already in melee with the party. That's lazy.

No sale. The game lets you walk away from melee range without penalty (ahem, unlike another game around here that shall remain nameless for now)

 

 

Also, hate hate HATE the stealth system. "Hide in shadows failed." Wait. Wait. Wait. Try again. "Hide in shadows failed." Repeat until succeeds. This is why I don't bother scouting until I have a thief with 100% hide in shadows one way or the other, it's just too bleeding tedious.

 

You'll have the same "problems" with 100% hide in shadows and 100% move silently, junta....until you learn the mechanics. The skill is not a misnomer. It's called Hide in shadows, not: "hide-in-plain-sight-in-broad-daylight-derp". You've got to pay attention to the surrounding environment. If you take advantage of the shadows that certain objects (like bookshelves, porch roofs, rocks and doors) cast, you will succeed and the skill will become useful. Until then, your Thief can enjoy all the backstabbing/scouting goodness of his class by using the bajillions of invisibility potions, spells, scrolls and jewelery that this game tosses at you at almost every turn.

 

Oh, it actually takes lighting into account? I was not aware of that. I didn't think the engine was smart enough to do so. Cool, I will adjust my playstyle accordingly. Thank you.

 

 

I just re-read the paladin description from 3.5e PHB, and it does not say anything about lying. At all.

From SRD for 3.5:

"Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

 

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),

 

 

The below quote pretty much sums up PrimeJunta's playing of BG2.

 

 

I was playing it wrong.

Time to go read the manual and learn to play. Not only that, but learn to roleplay a Paladin correctly.

[Sensuki]

I took Sensuki's advice and headed for Umar Hills. Finished it. Thought it was kind of meh; definitely not exciting enough to put up with the downsides. Also, very very easy (except probably for the dragon which I didn't even try to fight).

Well you were asking for content appropriate for your level

 

The dragon fight is good fun.

 

The good thing about BG2 is you can do the content in any order you like in Chapter 2, and sure, you may not know what content is what level - that's part of the fun. I believe most older games are like that - the Fallouts for instance. It sounds a bit like you want the game to hold your hand instead.

 

Inquisitors are supposed to be one of the easiest classes, with their innate Dispel Magic and True Sight. When I play the game I usually do the content in a similar order to what you did, I do the Copper Coronet stuff, then either the Docks or Temple District. I think you might have not spent your money (literally do not worry about the 15K - buy items, you'll have 100K gold in no time anyway) or known the location of a lot of the good items that are in the city - for instance there's two awesome Longsword +2's that can be found upon leaving the Slums district in different static locations in the city. One is in the Graveyard, and the other is in the City Gates area.

 

Also if you are going to stop - install some mods.

 

BG2 FixPack

BG2 Unfinished Business (I don't use the unfinished class kits or the old portraits)

One Pixel Productions

BG2 Tweaks - the most important one for you, I think. Don't install everything, you want to select the option ask for each section and install things that sound appealing individually

maybe even ToBEx, which removes the fake weapon attacks, but keeps the combat idle, among other things

Edited January 11, 2015 by Sensuki

[Althernai]

A quite a lot of the content was save-die-and-reload. The golem fight in de'Arnise Keep, the beholders/gauth, and that Kangaxx guardian lich. Maybe I was underleveled for some of it. If so, how would I know? And how do I find the content that's suitable for my level? The game doesn't tell me, and I do not find it enjoyable to go partway through a quest, discover it's not fun, and go do something else. When I start on something I want to finish it. And I want the game to communicate to me when I'm going off the beaten path and about to try something stupidly dangerous. BG2 does not do it in any way. I am totes cool with someone else liking that, but I do not.

This is actually the result of a very difficult general problem: how does a game create an impression of an open world while at the same time allowing the player to become significantly more powerful? There are a few different solutions, none of them particularly satisfactory.

 

The most obvious solution is to make the game basically linear (see, for example SWTOR or Lord of Xulima). That is, the world is supposedly open to the player, but the game is quite clear about communicating to you that you are poking your nose where it does not currently belong and even if you are skilled enough to ignore the warning and go somewhere earlier than you should, all you've accomplished is making the intervening content too easy. Some people like this, some find the illusion too easy to see through.

 

Another solution is scaling enemies to the level of the player a-la the later Elder Scrolls. Again, some people are happy with it, but it cheapens character progression.

 

BG2's solution is fairly unique: there is some limited level scaling, but mostly the many Chapter 2 quests can be done in any order assuming you are good at the game. If you're not quite that skilled, you will occasionally have to start something, go away and finish it later. The real problem is that sometimes (e.g. the Planar Sphere quest), you get stuck in a situation where the only way out is through and the way through is quite difficult.

[PrimeJunta]

Soo, guys -- your turn. What did I do wrong? Collecting some of the suggestions:

 

"You should have played to your paladin's role by not accepting quests unsuited for him." (Stun, archangel, Hiro Protagonist II)

 

Fair point. My expectation though was that the game acknowledges my choice of class/alignment not only by having content suitable for him, but by offering suitable choices within the content it offers. It did not do that, and I consider that a fairly major flaw. Also, because of BG1, I'm paranoid about quest timers related to party members, which is why I felt extremely pressured to take Yoshimo's quest. Yoshimo being the sole party member who's only a little irritating.

 

"You should have installed mods." (Sensuki)

 

Fine, I'll do that if I start a new game.

 

"You should have played the quests in a different order." (Sensuki)

 

Fine, but how am I supposed to know which order I'm supposed to play them? ("By playing it repeatedly.") ("But I much prefer the feeling of discovering new things to playing through stuff repeatedly.")

 

"You should have played more." (jones)

 

If I'm hating it, why should I continue?

 

"You're wrong, the game is awesome and if you're not having fun it's your fault." (Mr. Magniloquent, Hiro Protagonist II)

 

Thank you, that was  helpful.

 

Any others?

 

Honestly, guys -- I wanted to enjoy this, I thought I was going to enjoy this, and up until the beholder quest and subsequently being swamped by events and quests, I was enjoying it.

 

About that "playing it repeatedly thing." One thing I do not particularly enjoy is tearing through the same content I already did again. Not unless there's a materially different way of tearing through it. I.e. I don't relish facing the same monsters again and fighting them in the same way again, not unless I find a materially different way of doing it.

 

Now you know how I tried to play this. Your turn: how should I have tried to play this? 

[Sensuki]

Just sounds like you had one sour experience and it's marring your experience with the rest of the game's encounters. If I have time I'll quickly put together an Inquisitor and play the BG2 I have installed and see how I go (and bandicam record important stuff for ya).

 

What Weapon Proficiencies did you go?

Edited January 11, 2015 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

Thanks, but nope. I don't want tips on playing an Inquisitor, as I certainly won't roll another one. I'd just have to slog through the same content again. Also, since the game doesn't offer choices within quests, I'd rather play as a class/alignment who doesn't often (in-character) need to turn down quests.

 

I also don't want content spoilers, so thanks but no thanks on the video. 

 

Suggestions that would be helpful:

• "Play as [insert class/alignment]."
• "Don't take quest Q until you're level L."
• "Check out area A in district D first." (You mentioned the Temple District.)
• "You can safely ignore the events E, F, G you experienced in Iggy's playthrough."

Edited January 11, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[PrimeJunta]

@Sensuki Tried downloading the Gibberlings mods, but the Download button goes to the forums. What gives?